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This week's issue geocities.com/seemore004

As Advertised

http://www.distance.msstate.edu/mba/ Welcome to thunderdome MSU. So maybe this was/is the push for exMBA. Actually, forcing the CoB out of this area, might help State. IHL manages the whole portfolio remember. Don't necessarily think Shelby backing off w...

Fort Apache, the 'Burg

While perusing the EagleTalk message board for material to use against the trolls, I ran across a thread on a linked board called “Babe of the Day,” which contains photos of “hot babes” in provocative poses and attire. That thread got me to thinking: Can I add something like this to the AAUP Websit...

Jameela Lares

I see that Myron Henry is one of two candidates for the national AAUP governing council. I'll of course want to look at the other candidate's qualifications, but I suspect that I'll be backing Myron. I already know he'd be great for the job. He's the perfect combination of k...

D. Butler's Chair

in anticipation of the TLC opening. Butler hasn't left his office in days. Guys, he's got to leave soon...his sweaty a$$ has been pressed down on me since the plagiarism debacle.

info

http://www.ihl.state.ms.us/admin/downloads/BdJan05.pdf.

Adovcate

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050221045209990017

SGA Hata

J. Krebs was shown last night on WDAM news for winning the SGA prez election. He and Thames were cozied up. This is 4 straight Thames lackeys that have held the seat. I guess now we'll have to hear regularly from Krebs how a vast majority of USM people support Thames and Grimes and Mal...

Not InTHAMidated

Anyone else having trouble??

Jameela's fan

In a recent article commemorating the life and work of Arthur Miller, the columnist recalled that Miller said the following while working on the Crucible: "the longer I worked the more certain I felt that as improbable as it might seem, there were moments when an individual conscience was all that co...

Elections Moderator

Please vote above.

smuggler

The Student Printz Clipping Service has the latest issues on-line now. smuggler

Cossack

When SFT is removed as President of USM, will many of us have to go to therapy because of post-traumatic stress? Will our insurance plan pay for this therapy?

YeeHaa! We rollin' now!!

USM.... If we don't have a degree you are interested in... We'll make one up!!! F*** SACS! And, remember money...err students are our top priority!!! (sorry, it has been one of THOSE mornings)

early riser

Ronnie Agnew archive RONNIE AGNEW Not enough to care, Thames must perform

Throw away the keys

Mississippi

IHL_are_you_listening?

Notes from a leadership conference my child attended: "J.C. Stehle, after analyzing many surveys, found that the principle causes of unrest among workers are actions good leaders can avoid. They are listed in the order of their importance: 1. Failure to give credit for suggestions. ...

Delovely

The trolls are really out and about today. I interpret that to mean that better things than we can even imagine came out of Jackson yesterday. Usually large troll attacks mean that some of the SFT cronies are upset with the tide. And, for those of us who still believe in honor and ethical behavior, tha...

Mr. Wonderful

This was a stressful and disappointing week for the entire Mr. Wonderful organization. It was stressful because of the extremely high volume of message board postings which required double duty on the part of the selection committee members as they monitored the message boar...

Float Like a Butterfly, Sting Like a B-School Dean

If Shelby survives the summer, will Doty get the axe, or is he untouchable?

Generation Y the F*** not?

Please don't say anything that could possibly offend anyone who may happen to read this board. Don't make fun of anyone. Don't argue or pose an opposite viewpoint. Don't question anyone about their stance on anything. Most of all, don't attempt to use "black humor," and by using the phrase "black hum...

With Emma's Permission

I urge him to resign and, if he is as clever as he claims to be, start his own private university complete with new traditions, a new plane, a Ph.D. program over the internet that can provide webfeeds to all the football games that the football team his new school will have, and a whole new philosophy on wo...

Miss Information

Sorry, that we’re a tad late with the Nd’A this week. I Missed my flu shot and was reluctant to have company for the required committee meeting with Mal and Vic. That, plus more than a little bit of disappointment over the Board’s weak response on Thursday and an insufficient supply of dew...

Kelli

This Thursday is the ground breaking for the new TLC. It's an all-day affair, and even into the evening. Money is flowing into the project again. SFT will be basking in the glory this week, and the greater community will once again have a visible symbol of why they are supporting Th...

SFT on WTOK tonight

Could somebody who gets WTOK (Jackson) watch SFT's interview tonight at 5:30 and report back here?

Agent J

Just passed Hudson's former beachfront abode on the Gulf Park campus. It now has a yellow sign that says "Coming Soon--Southern Breeze Coffee Shop." Check it out on the drive in to work tomorrow, GP faculty. Hmmm. I wonder what will happen to all of t...

Angeline

http://hattiesburgamerican.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050220/OPINION03/502200303/1014/OPINION

Reporter

http://clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050220/COL0402/502200303/1161/OPINIONNot enough to care, Thames must perform By Ronnie Agnew ragnew@clarionledger.com

Green Hornet

http://www.hattiesburgamerican.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050220/OPINION03/502200303/1014/OPINION

Chicken Soup Lady

Well, this'll about do it for Chicken Soup Lady. She was outed by someone who is now in deep . . . trouble, shall we say. So, she's packin' up the little red beemer, and off to someplace lovely for a while. She thought she was going to have referee a fist fight between Stinky Cheese Man and Perspecti...

Invictus' IT Director

The nom-inations have been locked & the Vote-O-Matic is ready for the weekly people's choice polling. To vote, go to the Vote-O-Matic & assign ratings to any or all of the nom-inated noms. The rating scale is zero to five, where zero & five represent, like Margaritaville, whatever...

John Calipari

Thanks for the hospitality! I look forward to beating Mississippi Southern in Hattiesburg for years to come. Thank God you guys got rid of James Green...he sure had my number.

Angeline

http://www.hattiesburgamerican.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050218/NEWS01/502180322/1002

Coincidental Tourist

Press release from the IHL on 2/18 indicates that there will be a special meeting of the IHL Board on Monday, 2/21 at the Eagle Ridge Conference Center from 9-4, to discuss items including new commissioner's job description, vision of an effective governing board, effective system of higher educat...

taking names

Aside from the IHL, I see the Alumni Assoiation as the most disappointing actor in this drama/tragedy. The alumni are among those that have the most to lose. If all of this was happening at my undergraduate alma mater, you better bet that we would have something to say about it - even those of us no...

Jameela Lares

Pardon me if this is a duplicate posting, but I am just now fully aware of an agency concerned with international academic freedom and thought a link to the website would be appreciated. I don't think I've seen this agency mentioned before, though with all that's been going on, perhaps I should...

Kangaroo Court

I call for a boycott of pro-Thames establishments and suggest giving our money only to pro-faculty establishments. Pro-Thames establishments include: ANYWHERE ON CAMPUS (yes, this includes Starbucks) Purple Parrot Cafe/Crescent City Grill/Mahogany Bar Mike Anderson's Pro...

Albert

http://www.lawcrossing.com/article/index.php?id=583

soc

I just rode through campus. For those of you away from Hattiesburg, it's the end of a gorgeous day, with a beautiful sunset. When I rode by the admin building, I saw Doty's SUV parked on the lawn next to the building. The rear hatch was open, and Jay-Z was blasting from his soun...

Angeline

http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050218/NEWS01/502180354/1002/NEWS01Thames said he's going to continue to do what's best for USM. When asked if his remaining in the president's post is in the best interest of the university, Thames respo...

Magnolia

After reading the IHL news release and seeing Klumber on tv, I think there's probably some truth to the theory that IHL is going to be "focused on the task of moving the university forward and past the accreditation problems" then deal with the problem of SFT after we get off probation. De...

Stranger Than Fiction

Today's (Friday, February 18, 2003) print edition of the Wall Street Journal has a front page article on Harvard's president, Lawrence H. Summers. The article contains the following passage: "Angered by a lack of input and other issues, the faculty senate at the University of Southe...

Angeline

State College Board president Roy Klumb of Gulfport said the board during a 90-minute closed door session Thursday had “deliberately and thoroughly” discussed conflicts at the University of Southern Mississippi and said the board remains focused on moving beyond accreditation iss...

Not a Psychologist-Stayed at Holiday Inn Express

I think Thames has been told by IHL to prepare a path to a graceful exit for himself. To say that he is still "having fun" seems to be a form of overcompensation for some bad news he had received. What kind of psychopath would say that he's "having fun" when his university is crumbling around him?...

don king

I'm going to stay around here and kick your a$$es "as long as I'm havin' fun."

USM Sympathizer

Let's assume that the conspiracy theorists are right and that the IHL really does want USM to go away in order to give the University of Mississippi (and MSU) more power. Surely, though, the powers that be in the state cannot allow the southern half of the state (the fastest-growing area) ...

Reporter

Fellow Senators, Below is what the FS Executive Committee has sent to the IHL Board: The Faculty Senate of The University of Southern Mississippi is disappointed that the Board members of the Mississippi IHL declined the opportunity on February 17th to send a clear message of support for c...

Flabbergasted

Today's American article is up. Tell me that the President of the Mississippi Institutes of Higher Learning isn't responsible for the following: Klumb said it was not clear to him if Grimes' instructions would have affected Southern Miss' accreditation. He called SACS regulations abou...

Response from an alumni board member · Robert Evans

Just received this response from an alumni board member, to whom I had sent a copy of the HA article about Crofts censuring Shelby: TAKE ME OFF YOUR MAILING LIST. I DON’T APPRECIATE YOUR TACTICS AND PLANNED ATTACK ON DR. THAMES. IF ANYONE IS CAUSING CHAOS AT USM, IT IS PEOPLE LIKE YOU. ...

astonished

Anyone who thinks that SFT and crew is going to tread lightly so as not to make a fool of themselves again, hasn't read one of the 17000 brochures being mailed from continuing ed. This brochure focuses on the partnership between the Coast campus and businesses on the coast. It prominentl...

Topic		Started By	Replies	Views	Last Post
	See More #51 (Preview) This week's issue geocities.com/seemore004	See More	7	608	Feb 22, 2005 by Let Freedom Ring
	MS State Distance MBA (Preview) http://www.distance.msstate.edu/mba/ Welcome to thunderdome MSU. So maybe this was/is the push for exMBA. Actually, forcing the CoB out of this area, might help State. IHL manages the whole portfolio remember. Don't necessarily think Shelby backing off w...	As Advertised	10	515	Feb 22, 2005 by The obvious advantage
	Babe of the Day!!!!!! (Preview) While perusing the EagleTalk message board for material to use against the trolls, I ran across a thread on a linked board called “Babe of the Day,” which contains photos of “hot babes” in provocative poses and attire. That thread got me to thinking: Can I add something like this to the AAUP Websit...	Fort Apache, the 'Burg	3	375	Feb 21, 2005 by Nostalgic
	Go, Myron! (Preview) I see that Myron Henry is one of two candidates for the national AAUP governing council. I'll of course want to look at the other candidate's qualifications, but I suspect that I'll be backing Myron. I already know he'd be great for the job. He's the perfect combination of k...	Jameela Lares	19	1042	Feb 21, 2005 by asdf
	All Quiet on the ED Front (Preview) in anticipation of the TLC opening. Butler hasn't left his office in days. Guys, he's got to leave soon...his sweaty a$$ has been pressed down on me since the plagiarism debacle.	D. Butler's Chair	1	296	Feb 21, 2005 by Quinnipiac
	IHL Jan. 2005 meeting minutes (Preview) http://www.ihl.state.ms.us/admin/downloads/BdJan05.pdf.	info	3	439	Feb 21, 2005 by Robert Campbell
	Creative Student -- Can we do this? (Preview) http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050221045209990017	Adovcate	4	503	Feb 21, 2005 by Lonesome Organ Grinder
	Another Thames lackey ( 1 2 ) (Preview) J. Krebs was shown last night on WDAM news for winning the SGA prez election. He and Thames were cozied up. This is 4 straight Thames lackeys that have held the seat. I guess now we'll have to hear regularly from Krebs how a vast majority of USM people support Thames and Grimes and Mal...	SGA Hata	31	1476	Feb 21, 2005 by ED
	What is up with the board today? (Preview) Anyone else having trouble??	Not InTHAMidated	4	518	Feb 21, 2005 by Rodney King
	kudos to you all (Preview) In a recent article commemorating the life and work of Arthur Miller, the columnist recalled that Miller said the following while working on the Crucible: "the longer I worked the more certain I felt that as improbable as it might seem, there were moments when an individual conscience was all that co...	Jameela's fan	3	500	Feb 21, 2005 by Mrs. Loman
	Important 'Love' Poll --- Please Vote (Preview) Please vote above.	Elections Moderator	1	363	Feb 21, 2005 by TinyFish
	Student Printz (Preview) The Student Printz Clipping Service has the latest issues on-line now. smuggler	smuggler	2	514	Feb 21, 2005 by One way street
	When SFT Finally Leaves ( 1 2 ) (Preview) When SFT is removed as President of USM, will many of us have to go to therapy because of post-traumatic stress? Will our insurance plan pay for this therapy?	Cossack	36	925	Feb 21, 2005 by Another Bunkerism
	USM (Preview) USM.... If we don't have a degree you are interested in... We'll make one up!!! F*** SACS! And, remember money...err students are our top priority!!! (sorry, it has been one of THOSE mornings)	YeeHaa! We rollin' now!!	0	343	Feb 21, 2005 by YeeHaa! We rollin' now!!
	Another great editorial in today's (Feb. 21) CL (Preview) Ronnie Agnew archive RONNIE AGNEW Not enough to care, Thames must perform	early riser	2	389	Feb 21, 2005 by Read it again, Sam
	Do Not Let This Be USM's Fate (Preview) Mississippi	Throw away the keys	1	352	Feb 21, 2005 by Amateur Historian
	Notes on leadership (Preview) Notes from a leadership conference my child attended: "J.C. Stehle, after analyzing many surveys, found that the principle causes of unrest among workers are actions good leaders can avoid. They are listed in the order of their importance: 1. Failure to give credit for suggestions. ...	IHL_are_you_listening?	3	530	Feb 21, 2005 by Thomas Paine
	Another thought (Preview) The trolls are really out and about today. I interpret that to mean that better things than we can even imagine came out of Jackson yesterday. Usually large troll attacks mean that some of the SFT cronies are upset with the tide. And, for those of us who still believe in honor and ethical behavior, tha...	Delovely	12	865	Feb 20, 2005 by All good people
	Mr. Wonderful's Citation de la Semaine: Feb. 20 (Preview) This was a stressful and disappointing week for the entire Mr. Wonderful organization. It was stressful because of the extremely high volume of message board postings which required double duty on the part of the selection committee members as they monitored the message boar...	Mr. Wonderful	3	354	Feb 20, 2005 by Brand new, Eagle true
	Poll: If Shelby Survives... (Preview) If Shelby survives the summer, will Doty get the axe, or is he untouchable?	Float Like a Butterfly, Sting Like a B-School Dean	0	358	Feb 20, 2005 by Float Like a Butterfly, Sting Like a B-School Dean
	Political Correctness and You (Preview) Please don't say anything that could possibly offend anyone who may happen to read this board. Don't make fun of anyone. Don't argue or pose an opposite viewpoint. Don't question anyone about their stance on anything. Most of all, don't attempt to use "black humor," and by using the phrase "black hum...	Generation Y the F*** not?	12	350	Feb 20, 2005 by Generation Y the F*** not?
	The University of Shelby Thames (Preview) I urge him to resign and, if he is as clever as he claims to be, start his own private university complete with new traditions, a new plane, a Ph.D. program over the internet that can provide webfeeds to all the football games that the football team his new school will have, and a whole new philosophy on wo...	With Emma's Permission	8	519	Feb 20, 2005 by TRLFD
	People's Choice Nom d'Aplom Award - 2/20/05 (Preview) Sorry, that we’re a tad late with the Nd’A this week. I Missed my flu shot and was reluctant to have company for the required committee meeting with Mal and Vic. That, plus more than a little bit of disappointment over the Board’s weak response on Thursday and an insufficient supply of dew...	Miss Information	3	358	Feb 20, 2005 by Malapropism
	Trent Lott Bldg Ceremony (Preview) This Thursday is the ground breaking for the new TLC. It's an all-day affair, and even into the evening. Money is flowing into the project again. SFT will be basking in the glory this week, and the greater community will once again have a visible symbol of why they are supporting Th...	Kelli	8	461	Feb 20, 2005 by Invictus' Subcontractor
	WTOK, Sun., 5:30 P.M. (Preview) Could somebody who gets WTOK (Jackson) watch SFT's interview tonight at 5:30 and report back here?	SFT on WTOK tonight	1	416	Feb 20, 2005 by ram
	Southern Breeze Coffee (Preview) Just passed Hudson's former beachfront abode on the Gulf Park campus. It now has a yellow sign that says "Coming Soon--Southern Breeze Coffee Shop." Check it out on the drive in to work tomorrow, GP faculty. Hmmm. I wonder what will happen to all of t...	Agent J	3	434	Feb 20, 2005 by Colorblind
	Good Letter in HA: Board need to remove Thames (Preview) http://hattiesburgamerican.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050220/OPINION03/502200303/1014/OPINION	Angeline	14	641	Feb 20, 2005 by Don Bologna
	C.L. Editorial (Preview) http://clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050220/COL0402/502200303/1161/OPINIONNot enough to care, Thames must perform By Ronnie Agnew ragnew@clarionledger.com	Reporter	10	581	Feb 20, 2005 by Emma
	Letter in Sunday's HA (Preview) http://www.hattiesburgamerican.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050220/OPINION03/502200303/1014/OPINION	Green Hornet	3	378	Feb 20, 2005 by foot soldier
	A fond farewell (Preview) Well, this'll about do it for Chicken Soup Lady. She was outed by someone who is now in deep . . . trouble, shall we say. So, she's packin' up the little red beemer, and off to someplace lovely for a while. She thought she was going to have referee a fist fight between Stinky Cheese Man and Perspecti...	Chicken Soup Lady	6	454	Feb 20, 2005 by Three Little Pigs
	Weekly Nom d'Aplomb Voting is Open (Preview) The nom-inations have been locked & the Vote-O-Matic is ready for the weekly people's choice polling. To vote, go to the Vote-O-Matic & assign ratings to any or all of the nom-inated noms. The rating scale is zero to five, where zero & five represent, like Margaritaville, whatever...	Invictus' IT Director	8	402	Feb 19, 2005 by stinky cheese man
	I just spanked Eustachy...Again. (Preview) Thanks for the hospitality! I look forward to beating Mississippi Southern in Hattiesburg for years to come. Thank God you guys got rid of James Green...he sure had my number.	John Calipari	3	345	Feb 19, 2005 by Jared Wilson #16
	HA Article 2/18 (Preview) http://www.hattiesburgamerican.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050218/NEWS01/502180322/1002	Angeline	3	536	Feb 19, 2005 by USM Sympathizer
	Any special meaning to the special meeting? (Preview) Press release from the IHL on 2/18 indicates that there will be a special meeting of the IHL Board on Monday, 2/21 at the Eagle Ridge Conference Center from 9-4, to discuss items including new commissioner's job description, vision of an effective governing board, effective system of higher educat...	Coincidental Tourist	9	590	Feb 19, 2005 by My guess
	The Alumni Association (Preview) Aside from the IHL, I see the Alumni Assoiation as the most disappointing actor in this drama/tragedy. The alumni are among those that have the most to lose. If all of this was happening at my undergraduate alma mater, you better bet that we would have something to say about it - even those of us no...	taking names	15	917	Feb 19, 2005 by Ray Guy
	Scholars at Risk (Preview) Pardon me if this is a duplicate posting, but I am just now fully aware of an agency concerned with international academic freedom and thought a link to the website would be appreciated. I don't think I've seen this agency mentioned before, though with all that's been going on, perhaps I should...	Jameela Lares	22	774	Feb 19, 2005 by Troll Scam
	Call for a Boycott ( 1 2 ) (Preview) I call for a boycott of pro-Thames establishments and suggest giving our money only to pro-faculty establishments. Pro-Thames establishments include: ANYWHERE ON CAMPUS (yes, this includes Starbucks) Purple Parrot Cafe/Crescent City Grill/Mahogany Bar Mike Anderson's Pro...	Kangaroo Court	55	1397	Feb 18, 2005 by PS
	Don't cuss students or call them names! (Preview) http://www.lawcrossing.com/article/index.php?id=583	Albert	5	513	Feb 18, 2005 by Whoa
	beautiful site on campus just now..!!! (Preview) I just rode through campus. For those of you away from Hattiesburg, it's the end of a gorgeous day, with a beautiful sunset. When I rode by the admin building, I saw Doty's SUV parked on the lawn next to the building. The rear hatch was open, and Jay-Z was blasting from his soun...	soc	0	370	Feb 18, 2005 by soc
	C-L Article Feb. 18 (Preview) http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050218/NEWS01/502180354/1002/NEWS01Thames said he's going to continue to do what's best for USM. When asked if his remaining in the president's post is in the best interest of the university, Thames respo...	Angeline	5	514	Feb 18, 2005 by Rambo II
	IHL Playing Dangerous Game (Preview) After reading the IHL news release and seeing Klumber on tv, I think there's probably some truth to the theory that IHL is going to be "focused on the task of moving the university forward and past the accreditation problems" then deal with the problem of SFT after we get off probation. De...	Magnolia	8	572	Feb 18, 2005 by WTOK watcher
	USM in the Wall Street Journal (Preview) Today's (Friday, February 18, 2003) print edition of the Wall Street Journal has a front page article on Harvard's president, Lawrence H. Summers. The article contains the following passage: "Angered by a lack of input and other issues, the faculty senate at the University of Southe...	Stranger Than Fiction	7	469	Feb 18, 2005 by Peggy Cass
	Board does NOTHING ( 1 2 ) (Preview) State College Board president Roy Klumb of Gulfport said the board during a 90-minute closed door session Thursday had “deliberately and thoroughly” discussed conflicts at the University of Southern Mississippi and said the board remains focused on moving beyond accreditation iss...	Angeline	47	1583	Feb 18, 2005 by name is legion
	Overcompensation? (Preview) I think Thames has been told by IHL to prepare a path to a graceful exit for himself. To say that he is still "having fun" seems to be a form of overcompensation for some bad news he had received. What kind of psychopath would say that he's "having fun" when his university is crumbling around him?...	Not a Psychologist-Stayed at Holiday Inn Express	14	1233	Feb 18, 2005 by Emma
	message to Grimes&Thames from Doty (Preview) I'm going to stay around here and kick your a$$es "as long as I'm havin' fun."	don king	3	686	Feb 18, 2005 by toga
	U of M at H & G? (Preview) Let's assume that the conspiracy theorists are right and that the IHL really does want USM to go away in order to give the University of Mississippi (and MSU) more power. Surely, though, the powers that be in the state cannot allow the southern half of the state (the fastest-growing area) ...	USM Sympathizer	12	644	Feb 18, 2005 by USM Sympathizer
	FS Listserv (Preview) Fellow Senators, Below is what the FS Executive Committee has sent to the IHL Board: The Faculty Senate of The University of Southern Mississippi is disappointed that the Board members of the Mississippi IHL declined the opportunity on February 17th to send a clear message of support for c...	Reporter	0	280	Feb 18, 2005 by Reporter
	Very Technical Stuff, yes indeed! (Preview) Today's American article is up. Tell me that the President of the Mississippi Institutes of Higher Learning isn't responsible for the following: Klumb said it was not clear to him if Grimes' instructions would have affected Southern Miss' accreditation. He called SACS regulations abou...	Flabbergasted	4	505	Feb 18, 2005 by You kan bee a ejucashun comishuner
	Response from an alumni board member ( 1 2 ) (Preview) Just received this response from an alumni board member, to whom I had sent a copy of the HA article about Crofts censuring Shelby: TAKE ME OFF YOUR MAILING LIST. I DON’T APPRECIATE YOUR TACTICS AND PLANNED ATTACK ON DR. THAMES. IF ANYONE IS CAUSING CHAOS AT USM, IT IS PEOPLE LIKE YOU. ...	Robert Evans	31	1667	Feb 18, 2005 by Robert Campbell
	no changes expected (Preview) Anyone who thinks that SFT and crew is going to tread lightly so as not to make a fool of themselves again, hasn't read one of the 17000 brochures being mailed from continuing ed. This brochure focuses on the partnership between the Coast campus and businesses on the coast. It prominentl...	astonished	4	448	Feb 18, 2005 by Albert
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