USNWR Full Report Data - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Aug 26, 2004

USNWR Full Report Data

Date: Aug 27, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: The Shadow
"If someone has access to the complete USN&WR Best Colleges data, I'd be interested in knowing the "peer assessment score" for State, Ole Miss, USM, and Jackson State."

I am a USM faculty member who has closely read the posts grumbling about our our fall from grace (the bubble between third and fourth tier, back down to the fourth tier). However, I have seen no posts that mention what is the most egregious statistic in Mississippi higher education. This state has no "flagship" comprehensive state supported university in the first or second tier. We hold a pair of 3s, backed by two 4s. Not too awful for some bastardized game of poker (can I draw one more card?), but a brutal indictment of the state of higher education in Mississippi.

Date: Aug 27, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Mississippi Burning
"We hold a pair of 3s, backed by two 4s. Not too awful for some bastardized game of poker (can I draw one more card?), but a brutal indictment of the state of higher education in Mississippi. "

Very good point, MB.

I hope the high rollers at IHL don't decide to toss back one (or both) of the 4s in hopes of getting a deuce, because the odds then are that they'll wind up holding aces backed with 8s.

Date: Aug 27, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Mississippi Burning
"This state has no "flagship" comprehensive state supported university in the first or second tier. We hold a pair of 3s, backed by two 4s. Not too awful for some bastardized game of poker (can I draw one more card?), but a brutal indictment of the state of higher education in Mississippi. "

If the present administrative course is maintained, without IHL interference, I predict that Bobby Khayat will steer Ole Miss into Tier 2 status in short order.

AE

Date: Aug 27, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
" Very good point, MB. I hope the high rollers at IHL don't decide to toss back one (or both) of the 4s in hopes of getting a deuce, because the odds then are that they'll wind up holding aces backed with 8s."

I-Man:

Don't worry, the IHL doesn't have the guts to make this play. Self-interest aside, Boards in Alabama, Louisiana, and other relatively poor states understand the importance to higher education of having a flagship university (or two in the case of Texas) in the upper tiers. USM's ranking is not surprising considering the challenges we face (poor endowment, adversarial legislature, populace that generally cares little about "world-class" education, virtual open admissions, and so on). What really surprises me is that Ole Miss and State are third tier, even with affiliated medical, law, vet, and engineering schools, and comparatively (to us) healthy endowments. They should both be Tier 2 or 1 now, or shut 'em down!

Date: Aug 31, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: The Shadow
"If someone has access to the complete USN&WR Best Colleges data, I'd be interested in knowing the "peer assessment score" for State, Ole Miss, USM, and Jackson State."

I found the peer assessment scores: USM 2.2, MSU 2.4, UM 2.8, JSU 1.9.

Other peer assessment scores. LSU 2.9, Alabama 3.1, Auburn 3.0, Michigan 4.6.

Of the 61 schools in the fourth tier, 36 had a higher score than USM, 17 had a lower score, and 8 were tied.

Date: Aug 31, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: The Shadow
"Of the 61 schools in the fourth tier, 36 had a higher score than USM, 17 had a lower score, and 8 were tied."

Does this mean that, disregarding the 8 which were tied, USM is 18th from the bottom of the fourth tier schools?

Date: Aug 31, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Austin Eagle
"
If the present administrative course is maintained, without IHL interference, I predict that Bobby Khayat will steer Ole Miss into Tier 2 status in short order."

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned it, but as long as Mississippi universities are under a federal court order that lowers admissions requirements, it is going to be pretty tough to get any Mississippi university into Tier 2. The operative word is "Ayers."

Date: Aug 31, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
"

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned it, but as long as Mississippi universities are under a federal court order that lowers admissions requirements, it is going to be pretty tough to get any Mississippi university into Tier 2. The operative word is "Ayers.""

That's certainly a problem, but the data from Ole Miss are pretty close to many of the schools toward the bottom of tier two because of student body self selection. With the same system wide admission requirements, Ole Miss accepts 80% of applicants as compared to 49% at USM.

Date: Aug 31, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
" I'm surprised nobody has mentioned it, but as long as Mississippi universities are under a federal court order that lowers admissions requirements, it is going to be pretty tough to get any Mississippi university into Tier 2. The operative word is "Ayers.""

I hadn't thought of Ayers as a barrier until I saw your posting, Invictus, but the Ayers mandate is going to be a high mountain for Mississippi's public univesities to climb. Another mountain of an entirely different kind is that there are three words which, unfortunately and unjustifiably, conjure up a negative image on the part of many persons in other parts of the country: (a) Southern, (b) Mississippi, and (b) Baptist. Regardless of institutional quality, any of those three words in a university's name will be viewed with jaundiced eye by some bigots who play some role in these ratings. USM's name contains two of those words: Mississippi and Southern. I am not suggesting changing the name ("labeling does not make it so") but I do believe that the preconceived, albeit it illconceived, notion with which some people view those words is a small mountain itself.

Date: Sep 1, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: The Shadow
"Of the 61 schools in the fourth tier, 36 had a higher score than USM, 17 had a lower score, and 8 were tied."

Of the 248 schools evaluated, only 17 are seen as worse by the evaluators? Wow! That's bad.

Date: Sep 1, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Half Empty Glass
"Of the 248 schools evaluated, only 17 are seen as worse by the evaluators? Wow! That's bad. "

Can someone please name the 17?

Date: Sep 1, 2004

This question may expose horrendous ignorance, but I started a program of research by naively asking such questions. So, here goes.

While at USM I frequently heard the counter-argument phrase "Ayers decision" whenever anyone mentioned changing the relatively, if not completely, open admissions policy at USM and trying to do something to invcrease the mean level of aptitude among incoming students. These discussions in my department always seemed to abruptly halt whenever someone hexed us all mute by hissing "Ayerssss . . ."

I decided that there were other hills that I had a greater p(conquering) and never bothered to ask what the "Ayers decision" is all about. What's the story?

Thank you

Date: Sep 1, 2004

But Ayers was well in place when USM was ranked Tier 3. I do not see the connection that some of you are seeing. When a school drops from 150 to the low 200s in just one year (USM was 150 before USNWR started its alphabetical ordering of the tiers) there is something else going on. This is why I am trying to get the old copies of USNWR.

Date: Sep 1, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: FatManWalking
"But Ayers was well in place when USM was ranked Tier 3. I do not see the connection that some of you are seeing. When a school drops from 150 to the low 200s in just one year (USM was 150 before USNWR started its alphabetical ordering of the tiers) there is something else going on. This is why I am trying to get the old copies of USNWR."

I was most emphatically not blaming USM's most recent "tier drop" on Ayers. Rather, I think the admissions requirements dictated by the Ayers settlement is one reason that neither Ole Miss nor State appear in Tier 2. Selectivity of admissions is a factor in the USN&WR rankings.

Date: Sep 1, 2004

FatMan,
Your comment seems pertinent to me regarding the Ayers decision. However, if information truly was not forwarded to USNWR I preseume that would have had a negative impact. Surely the info on # of applications/% acceptances would not have been available to USNWR otherwise.

Also to a previous post, there are many states which don't have tier 1 schools. Mississippi has plenty of company in that regard.

OE

Date: Sep 1, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Okie Eagle
"FatMan, Your comment seems pertinent to me regarding the Ayers decision. However, if information truly was not forwarded to USNWR I preseume that would have had a negative impact. Surely the info on # of applications/% acceptances would not have been available to USNWR otherwise. Also to a previous post, there are many states which don't have tier 1 schools. Mississippi has plenty of company in that regard."

Okie, I may have misread what you said but you appear to be providing two more excuses for USM (lack of information forwarded and other states don't have tier 1 schools). From my observations, USM has been a habitual excuse maker to explain things away. But maybe I misread what you were saying.

Date: Sep 1, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Arnold Schwarzgnome
"

Can someone please name the 17?"

Alabama A&M, Alliant Int., Biola, East Tennessee, Jackson State, Middle Tennessee, National-Louis, Nova Southeastern, Tennessee State, TAMU-Commerce, TAMU-Kingsville, Texas Southern, Union Institute, Bridgeport, Louisiana-Lafayette, South Alabama, Wilmington College.

Date: Sep 1, 2004

EMP,

Only a point of information. I have no interest in offering excuses for USM, or anyone else. Was Mader offering her "we didn't see it" as an excuse for the rating? It's so obviously negligence, I didn't even consider it as an excuse for the rating. The other point concerning states which don't have tier 1 schools again was just a point of information. At my institution administrators much too frequently point to a distant (and usually unreasonable) goal without providing a near term mark of achievement.

Sorry to offend, that wasn't my intention.

OE

Date: Sep 1, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Okie Eagle
"FatMan,Also to a previous post, there are many states which don't have tier 1 schools. Mississippi has plenty of company in that regard."

How many states don't have a Tier 1 or a Tier 2?

Date: Sep 1, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Okie Eagle
"EMP, Only a point of information. I have no interest in offering excuses for USM, or anyone else. Was Mader offering her "we didn't see it" as an excuse for the rating? It's so obviously negligence, I didn't even consider it as an excuse for the rating. The other point concerning states which don't have tier 1 schools again was just a point of information. At my institution administrators much too frequently point to a distant (and usually unreasonable) goal without providing a near term mark of achievement. Sorry to offend, that wasn't my intention. OE"

Okie Eagle, no offense taken. Its just that for many years I called members of the administration to low ratings of one sort or another, and all I heard was one excuse after another from them.

Date: Sep 1, 2004

Invictus,

A cursory glance shows some 24 states represented in tier 1.

OE

Date: Sep 1, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Okie Eagle
"Invictus, A cursory glance shows some 24 states represented in tier 1. OE"

Now don't forget Tier 2 schools. In the region, I think only MS and LA do not have a Tier 1 or 2 public university. Ark, FL, TN, TX, AL, GA all do I believe.

Date: Sep 1, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: 2004 AD
"Now don't forget Tier 2 schools. In the region, I think only MS and LA do not have a Tier 1 or 2 public university. Ark, FL, TN, TX, AL, GA all do I believe."

So maybe that means we are not so bad afterall.

Date: Sep 1, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Pollyanic
"So maybe that means we are not so bad afterall."

It's not public, but Louisiana does have Tulane, a tier one university.