US News New Ranking for USM - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Aug 20, 2004

RE: US News New Ranking for USM

Date: Aug 20, 2004

Below are links to the Tier 1 and Tier 3 schools. Sorry, but for some reason, I couldn't find Tier 2. Several interesting things are disclosed by a cursory review. Among them is the fact that both TAMU and Tulane are Tier 1.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/natudoc/tier3/t3natudoc_brief.php

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/natudoc/tier1/t1natudoc_brief.php

Date: Aug 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: ram
"Below are links to the Tier 1 and Tier 3 schools. Sorry, but for some reason, I couldn't find Tier 2. Several interesting things are disclosed by a cursory review. Among them is the fact that both TAMU and Tulane are Tier 1. http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/natudoc/tier3/t3natudoc_brief.php http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/natudoc/tier1/t1natudoc_brief.php"

Are you telling me that Mississippi State and Ole Miss are in a higher tier group? I am shocked. There must be some mistake.

Date: Aug 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Shocked
"Are you telling me that Mississippi State and Ole Miss are in a higher tier group? I am shocked. There must be some mistake. "

Mississippi's private colleges, with no state support, fared quite well. Millsaps and Missisippi College have always done well. William Carey, too, and WC is moving forward at a geometric rate!

Date: Aug 20, 2004

Do our colleagues at Gulf Park really want to be a part of all this?

Date: Aug 20, 2004

It might be interesting to look at the departing faculty on babb's list to see what "tier" they went to. If more went to higher tiers, it might suggest that USM is loosing lots of good folks. If they went to lower or comparable tiers, it might show how desperate people were to get out. (I'm not a social scientist, so those of you out there who specialize in this find of research, please don't flame me.)

Date: Aug 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Curious II
"Do our colleagues at Gulf Park really want to be a part of all this?"

Do they have any other choices?

Date: Aug 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: foot soldier
"It might be interesting to look at the departing faculty on babb's list to see what "tier" they went to. If more went to higher tiers, it might suggest that USM is loosing lots of good folks. If they went to lower or comparable tiers, it might show how desperate people were to get out. (I'm not a social scientist, so those of you out there who specialize in this find of research, please don't flame me.)"

From a first quick glance, it looks like to me that Kimber-Wilson, Jan Drummond, and Whiting went to Tier 1 schools. I'm sure there are more.

Date: Aug 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: for what it's worth
"From a first quick glance, it looks like to me that Kimber-Wilson, Jan Drummond, and Whiting went to Tier 1 schools. I'm sure there are more. "

Don't forget the Stringers (TAMU).

Date: Aug 20, 2004

Just checked out the US News rankings, and at USM beat Ole Miss and State (and even Jackson State!) in one area: diversity. Shelboo should definitely run with this one...would love to see an African American Cultural Center on USM's campus.

Date: Aug 20, 2004

ram, I believe the link to the top schools you refer to as Tier 1 are actually Tier 1 and Tier 2 schools.

Date: Aug 20, 2004

All of the above went in as Associate Professors.

Date: Aug 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: truth4usm/AH
"Just checked out the US News rankings, and at USM beat Ole Miss and State (and even Jackson State!) in one area: diversity. Shelboo should definitely run with this one...would love to see an African American Cultural Center on USM's campus."

One of the things I've always liked about USM is that the demographics of the student body pretty much resemble the demographics of South Mississippi.

Date: Aug 20, 2004

That is Wilson-Kimber, Drummond, and Whiting -- wasn't the case for Stringer -- He's as full a professor as you can get!!

Date: Aug 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: tomcat
"ram, I believe the link to the top schools you refer to as Tier 1 are actually Tier 1 and Tier 2 schools."

Yep, thanks. As I dig around, it appears there is no separate listing for 1 and 2. I guess we can just cut somewhere in the middle. I found the listings by manipulating the URLs. When I replaced the "4" with a "3" or "1," I got the results as posted. Plugging in a "2" just gets an error message.

Date: Aug 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: truth4usm/AH
"Just checked out the US News rankings, and at USM beat Ole Miss and State (and even Jackson State!) in one area: diversity. Shelboo should definitely run with this one...would love to see an African American Cultural Center on USM's campus."

Diversity index is one component of the USN&WR college rankings. It represents the probability that any two randomly selected students will be of different races. Here's the protocol:

The probability that a student will be of a specified race is simply the percent of the student body that belongs to that race.
The probability that any two students will be of a specific race is the square of the probability for that race. For example, the probability that two randomly-selected students would be white would be:

Pwhite x Pwhite = Pwhite2
The probability that any two students will be of the same race is the sum of the probabilities for all racial groups:

Pasian2 + Pblack2 + Phispanic2 + Pnative american2+ Pwhite2 = Psame race
Thus, the probability that any two students will not be of the same race (the diversity index) is:

1 - Psame race = Pdifferent races

There are a number of factors that favor a higher diversity index at USM that at the other "comprehensive universities," notably cost, location, programs offered & tradition. What I find interesting is that South Mississippi tends to have a proportionately lower black population & a proportionately larger white population than other parts of the state. This suggests that USM may be getting a very decent "market share" of black students from the region.

Date: Aug 20, 2004

Activeboard! I spent a lot of time formatting the superscripts & subscripts in those formulae, using the handy preview button. Then when I post, the formatting is clobbered.

With apologies to any readers who hail from the Bronx,

!

Date: Aug 20, 2004

USM seems to have become less competitive as a comprehensive doctoral-granting institution. I am not suggesting the following by any means, but I did ask myself the question what the IHL board would do if USM told them this: "We are becoming less competitive as a comprehensive doctoral-granting institution. Doctoral programs are rather expensive. We already have other doctoral-granting institutions in the state. According to the rankings, there no premier state-supported university in Mississippi. We would like to become that institution. We will relinquish our doctoral programs if you will fully support (monetarily and enthusiastically, in deed and not just by mouth) our becoming a leading undergraduate institution (with a few selected master's programs perhaps). We would like to recapture our leadership in English. We would like to have a premier undergraduate teacher training program. We would like to recapture our leadership in the Fine Arts, including but not limited to music. We want a nationally visible Nursing program. We would also like to upgrade departments X, Y, and Z to premier status. We would like a campus administrative leadership that will support these goals which would be far less expensive than maintaining an array of doctoral programs at 4th tier. What would IHL say? If they say "no," then USM is in a heap of trouble. IHL is not currently adequately supporting USM's comprehensive doctoral mission. If they would not support a truncated mission, of the magnitude as described here, things do not bode well for USM. I'm not suggesting doing this by any means. I would like to know, however, if the IHL woluld be willing to put their money and their support where their mouth is.

Date: Aug 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Food for Thought
"USM seems to have become less competitive as a comprehensive doctoral-granting institution. I am not suggesting the following by any means, but I did ask myself the question what the IHL board would do if USM told them this: "We are becoming less competitive as a comprehensive doctoral-granting institution. Doctoral programs are rather expensive. We already have other doctoral-granting institutions in the state. According to the rankings, there no premier state-supported university in Mississippi. We would like to become that institution. We will relinquish our doctoral programs if you will fully support (monetarily and enthusiastically, in deed and not just by mouth) our becoming a leading undergraduate institution (with a few selected master's programs perhaps). We would like to recapture our leadership in English. We would like to have a premier undergraduate teacher training program. We would like to recapture our leadership in the Fine Arts, including but not limited to music. We want a nationally visible Nursing program. We would also like to upgrade departments X, Y, and Z to premier status. We would like a campus administrative leadership that will support these goals which would be far less expensive than maintaining an array of doctoral programs at 4th tier. What would IHL say? If they say "no," then USM is in a heap of trouble. IHL is not currently adequately supporting USM's comprehensive doctoral mission. If they would not support a truncated mission, of the magnitude as described here, things do not bode well for USM. I'm not suggesting doing this by any means. I would like to know, however, if the IHL woluld be willing to put their money and their support where their mouth is."

USM can take one of three routes. (A) Continue to fumble and plod along in 4th tier manner. (B) Infuse a sufficiently high level of administrative and financial support in order to upgrade to a higher tier. (C) Become an undergraduate/masters institution. Tough choices. Is a 4th choice available?

Date: Aug 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Sonny
"USM can take one of three routes. (A) Continue to fumble and plod along in 4th tier manner. (B) Infuse a sufficiently high level of administrative and financial support in order to upgrade to a higher tier. (C) Become an undergraduate/masters institution. Tough choices. Is a 4th choice available?"

No need for a 4th choice. Option "C" is the IHL hidden agenda backed by a few trustees including Point Clear Roy. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on one's point-of-view, there are enough other board members who aren't privy to the plan that Option "A" is probably assured.

As for Option "B" -- porcine aviation requires more thrust than Mississippi can muster (or is willing to muster), I'm afraid.

Date: Aug 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
" porcine aviation"

for the "should have been a moniker" category!

Date: Aug 20, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by: Invictus

As for Option "B" -- porcine aviation requires more thrust than Mississippi can afford . . ."

Invictus, If we added a program in equestrain studies would that change your mind regarding Option "B"?

Date: Aug 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
". . . porcine aviation . . .

Dictionary:

Porcine = resembling swing or a pig

Date: Aug 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Dictionary
" Dictionary: Porcine = resembling swing or a pig"

Now, a "pig swing" would definitely get you some porcine aviation!

Date: Aug 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Dictionary
"
Dictionary: Porcine = resembling swing or a pig"

This neatly explains the legendary "Swinging Pig" record label, which superceded an outfit that produced some of the first bootlegs of the rock'n'roll era. Here's there logo, which USM might want to adopt.

Date: Aug 20, 2004

Look at it this way...we can't get lower than 4th tier.

--
call me "Mr. Silver Lining"

Date: Aug 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Miles Long
"Look at it this way...we can't get lower than 4th tier. -- call me "Mr. Silver Lining""

Don't put those kind of challenges out there!

Date: Aug 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Shocked
"Are you telling me that Mississippi State and Ole Miss are in a higher tier group? I am shocked. There must be some mistake. "

God bless you each and every one.

Date: Aug 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Food for Thought
"USM seems to have become less competitive as a comprehensive doctoral-granting institution. I am not suggesting the following by any means, but I did ask myself the question what the IHL board would do if USM told them this: "We are becoming less competitive as a comprehensive doctoral-granting institution. Doctoral programs are rather expensive. We already have other doctoral-granting institutions in the state. According to the rankings, there no premier state-supported university in Mississippi. We would like to become that institution. We will relinquish our doctoral programs if you will fully support (monetarily and enthusiastically, in deed and not just by mouth) our becoming a leading undergraduate institution (with a few selected master's programs perhaps). We would like to recapture our leadership in English. We would like to have a premier undergraduate teacher training program. We would like to recapture our leadership in the Fine Arts, including but not limited to music. We want a nationally visible Nursing program. We would also like to upgrade departments X, Y, and Z to premier status. We would like a campus administrative leadership that will support these goals which would be far less expensive than maintaining an array of doctoral programs at 4th tier. What would IHL say? If they say "no," then USM is in a heap of trouble. IHL is not currently adequately supporting USM's comprehensive doctoral mission. If they would not support a truncated mission, of the magnitude as described here, things do not bode well for USM. I'm not suggesting doing this by any means. I would like to know, however, if the IHL woluld be willing to put their money and their support where their mouth is."

The problem with this line of thinking, is that having students all the way up to the doctoral level is often what gives a program its premiere status. Can you name a fabulous English program that only has undergrads? All the leading music schools that are not conservatories (places like Michigan, Indiana, Iowa, FSU) have doctoral programs (the only one I can think of that doesn't is Oberlin, which is already an extremely high-level place). Perhaps Nursing Prof can comment on nursing. So I don't think you CAN wipe out the doctoral level and retain the quality (or maybe you were just being facetious. . . . )

Date: Aug 20, 2004

i think food for thought is suggesting (indirectly) doctoral program reviews. maybe we should assess how good our existing programs are and make decisions about whether some should be "trimmed" in order for other doctoral programs to grow. SACS suggested such reviews in '95, didn't happen. (I'm not naive--it's a threatening and anxiety-producing process.) So many perceptions of graduate programs at USM at based on old perceptions and stereotypes. I know major (tier 1) universities that rountinely evaluate their doctoral programs every 5-7 years. expensive, but if you want good programs . . . .