What is USM's "niche" in life? Invictus, in a statement made in the middle of another thread, suggested that this is the $64,000 question. But nobody responded. I believe that is an important question, so I am starting this new thread on the topic.
Mississippi's other institutions of higher education seem to have a clearly defined mission or vision of themselves - even beyond that stated in the rhetoric of their respective catalogues. Their "self concept." They are aware of the "peer" institutions which share similar goals, or to which they aspire to emulate. What are USM's "peer" institutions and how does USM's "self concept" differ, if at all, from the other of Mississippi's institutions of higher education?
Mississippi State University. As a land-grant university, Mississippi State relates philosophically to other land-grant institutions such as Auburn, Clemson, Cornell, LSU, North Carolina State, Penn State, Rutgers, Universityof Tennessee, Virginia Tech, and Washington State, to name only 10 of the 75+ land-grant universities in the nation.
University of Mississippi. Ole Miss seems to relate, at least in their heart, to public universities which are generally regarded to be the "flagship" - perhaps even considered the "elitist" - institutions in their respective states. Three come to mind: In North Carolina: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. In Texas: University of Texas. In Virginia: University of Virginia.
Millsaps. As a small, nationally-recognized liberal arts college (often recommended to their better students even by guidance counselors in the best high schools in the Northeast), Millsaps seems to be, or aspires to be, much like Williams, Carleton, Bowdoin, Washington & Lee, Grinnell, Oberlin, Franklin & Marshall, Rhodes, Wofford, and Knox (to name only 10 of the hoards of small liberal arts colleges with high admissions standards and which have been producing leaders in industry and in the arts and sciences for many years).
Mississippi College. Mississippi College has morphed, slowly but surely, from a small liberal arts college into a small university which still retains the name "college." From my pespective, it's current "peer" group includes schools such as the University of Richmond and Stetson University (both of which also have law schools I believe). If the morphing continues at the present pace, it could turn wind up being regarded as Mississippi's major private university such as Wake Forest or Baylor or Mercer are in their respective states.
William Carey. Perhaps the folks at Carey will not agree with this, but I see William Carey at a school on the move. Much like Mississippi College was many years ago, it is a character-building fine liberal arts college whose "peers" include Belmont (Nashville), Bluefield College (Virginia), Louisiana College (Louisiana), Palm Beach Atlantic (Florida), and Hardin-Simmons (Texas).
Jackson State University: As Mississippi's "Urban" university, I believe that - given its geographical position - it could eventuallly become to Mississippi as other urban schools are to their respective states: Georgia State (Atlanta), Wayne State (Detroit), Virginia Commonwealth (Richmond), University of New Orleans (Louisiana), Univeristy of Houston (Houston), and American University (District of Columbia). Remember, Jackson State has only recently been designated as one of Mississippi's "comprehensive" state universities. It will take time, but my guess is that the aforementioned schools are the types to which they aspire.
Perhaps I have misplaced one or two of the "peer" schools cited above, but I hope you get my drift. So what is the answer to Invictus's "$64,000 question?" Just what is USM's "niche?" Who are our "peer" schools (present & aspirational)? Surely not Carnegie-Mellon, or MIT, or Cal Tech, as that seems to be a little out of reach right now. But somebody, somewhere, surely knows where we are going and what we aspire to be. There must be a "grand plan" sitting in some administrator's office, or at theIHL in Jackson. Anybody interested in this topic?
First Ant, just some clarification before it all begins. Are you grouping MSU with the others and saying they are of the same quality? The same for Ole Miss, etc.? Neither MSU or UM are as good as the places they're matched with. UM is not as regarded as the land grants MSU is teamed with in your post.
I know it's possible you are making these assertions. Some might be confused (as I might be) though.
quote: Originally posted by: online jock Neither MSU or UM are as good as the places they're matched with . . . I know it's possible you are making these assertions. Some might be confused (as I might be) though. "
online jock,
I see your point. But note that I used the terms "present" and "aspirational." All I was trying to was to paint what I perceive to be those school's respective "niche." In no way did I seem to imply that those proposed peer schools were all comparable. I was just trying to provide some sort of framework for anyone who wants to comment on where USM is and where it wants to go. I know I did write a lot in my post. (I suppose that the old saying is right: The more you say, the more you have to explain). I hope somebody has some thoughts about this topic. Quite frankly, I could never seem to get an answer when I brought this question up on campus.
quote: Originally posted by: online jock "First Ant, just some clarification before it all begins. Are you grouping MSU with the others and saying they are of the same quality? The same for Ole Miss, etc.? Neither MSU or UM are as good as the places they're matched with. UM is not as regarded as the land grants MSU is teamed with in your post. I know it's possible you are making these assertions. Some might be confused (as I might be) though. "
I think FA @ TP is saying that MSU, Ole Miss, etc. are *aspiring* to be these places. There's a difference between "peer institutions" and those institutions that you "aspire" to be. For example, folks at Vandy would probably say that Duke is a peer institution, but they aspire to be Harvard.
quote: Originally posted by: truth4usm/AH "For example, folks at Vandy would probably say that Duke is a peer institution, but they aspire to be Harvard."
I still want one of those old Tulane t-shirts.
"Harvard: the Tulane of the North"
Anyhoo, I thought that USM always filled the "land grant" role, with the exception that CFA and CoST were supposed leaders in their fields. It was the toughest sell for CoST, because they were not a true engineering school. It was easy for CFA, as one of only n schools of fine arts in the South/nation.
Now, I think they're trying to be more of a school with two diverging goals: 1) accept anyone with a pulse or a checkbook, and pass them at all costs, as long as they keep paying; and 2) force every faculty member to get grant money (as that is the only true measure of research validity...har) regardless of whether or not that is even appropriate for their field.
Welcome to the world of customers instead of students. The bottom line is all that matters (remember, football is a recruting tool), and don't let scholarly activities get in the way.
Too bad the University of Phoenix and DeVry don't have football teams.
To answer the question we must look at state schools that are not the land grant or flagship school in their state. I've always thought that two possibilities for a model to aspire to would be Miami of Ohio or James Madison in Virginia. What we are talking about is very good or good undergraduate schools with a handful of solid graduate programs.
One of USM's "niches" was/is/should be, as many have said before on this board, Teacher Education. Miss State is the agricultural/engineering school and Ole Miss the more "prestigious" (albeit 2nd tierd) liberal arts/law school. But somewhere down the road in the midst of the great collapse (of 9 colleges) we've forgotten how to train teachers or how to care about teacher ed. which is sad because there continues to be such a huge demand for them across the South. But here at USM we can't even get our act together for NCATE. It is embarrassing. Have you heard the NCATE visit has now been put off until the spring of 2006 which might just be in time for Willie to retire? I'm sure most in in CoEP are breathing a sigh of relief.
I am totally disheartened with the current and on-going botching of the raises, the admin's bogus sales pitches, and dome scripts being read left and right. It is a miracle anything runs or works on campus (and by the way it doesn't very well). And I am disgusted that one of the oldest msisions of this university has simply begun to get washed down the drain.
If somebody would simply ask the president to name a handful of USM's "peer institutions" (schools we are like or aspire to be like), then we would have our answer, and this tread could be shut down. Maybe somebody on the PUC/PC could ask that question at its next meeting.
when the IHL mandated a "management report" where all universities would be compared against other universities, it specified the comparison group. check with the IHL on the management report.
quote: Originally posted by: stinky cheese man "when the IHL mandated a "management report" where all universities would be compared against other universities, it specified the comparison group. check with the IHL on the management report."
Stinky cheese man, If the IHL has prescribed a peer group for USM, and if the identity of those schools is not generally knlown to the USM academic community without having to approach the IHL, then we have one sad state of affairs here.
quote: Originally posted by: stinky cheese man "i don't know if it is publically known. it is generally SREB and SUG universities."
Stinky cheese man, that's not the peer group we need. If I am not mistaken, the SUG averages refer to salary - not to academic presence or aspiration. If it were salary, we'd all pick MIT I suppose.
sreb and sug data are more than merely salaries. people that want to debate such issues need to know a lot more about the data bases that are used, including issues relating to data submitted to the IHL and other agencies. Example: IHL defines an FTE (Full Time Equivalency) student as one taking 15 student credit hours (SCHs). SACS defines an FTE as 12 SCHs. USM's FTE enrollment as reported to the IHL could (and probably will) be different than our enrollment reported to SACS. not an ethical issue--just different definitional issues.
quote: Originally posted by: stinky cheese man "it is generally SREB and SUG universities."
The groups of schools on the lst block of this thread had nothing to do with salaries. Mississippi State was grouped with other land-grand schools, not with other schools with comparable salaries. The same is true for the other schools on that block. What is needed (in my opinion) is some idea of where USM should be headed. I believe one way to get a handle on that is to identify other schools which we are like or aspire to be like. Surely the administration or the IHL has some idea about this. But its not salary comparisons that are needed for this purpose.
At the risk of sounding like I am trying to bring athletics into this thread, I think Southern Miss often looks at other Conference USA member institutions (not including Tulane, obviously) as a "peer group."
sorry, i skimmed the first thread and responded to later comments to a comment i made. your nicheing of state and ole miss would be consistent with the ihl management report. i observed your comments about other univerisites and found them to be somewhat on point, but lacking much knowledge about higher education in the southeast. try william carey--heard of carson newman university?
quote: Originally posted by: stinky cheese man "heard of carson newman university? "
Carson-Newman? Sure. It's in Jefferson City, Tennessee. I've visited that campus on numerous occcasions. It's a really good Southern Baptist liberal arts college. But I couldn't name all of the peer institutions I thought might go into that particular grouping - I just picked some representative examples. Also, you will note that I said that I might have misplaced a couple of them. Now, with regard to your comment that I don't know much about higher education, you might be surprised.
quote: Originally posted by: First Ant at the Picnic "Carson-Newman? Sure. It's in Jefferson City, Tennessee. I've visited that campus on numerous occcasions. It's a really good Southern Baptist liberal arts college. But I couldn't name all of the peer institutions I thought might go into that particular grouping - I just picked some representative examples. Also, you will note that I said that I might have misplaced a couple of them. Now, with regard to your comment that I don't know much about higher education, you might be surprised."
Stinky Cheese Man,
One more thing. Carson-Newman is a great school, and it would most certainly be one I would consider if I were looking for one to attend. I fell in love with that school the first time I visited it. A caring faculty, a bright student body. It is, however, one of numerous colleges around the country that changed its name from "college" to "university" because of the pressure from students who thought the term "university" meant more than "college." Even little tiny schools that can barely stay afloat call themselves a "university" in order to attract students. A notable exception right here in our own state is Mississippi College which had the presence of mind not to change their name even though it could legitimately call itself a university.
quote: Originally posted by: stinky cheese man "great you know a lot about higher education. why don't you share with us what you believe to be USM's niche? "
From my perspective, I'd say that the two Flash Gordon mentioned earlier on this thread would be high on my list - Miami or Ohio & James Madison. But I'd like to know what the IHL has in store for us. And which schools the president views as USM's aspirationa peers. And, by the way, I didn't say I knew a lot about higher education. I said that you might be surprised at how much I do know.
i corrected my initial description of carson newman as a university to a college because i went to its web page and it's still a college. i know a newly minted phd from usm who is there and that's the reason i mentioned it. it hasn't made the mistakes you've said and has a h*ll of an endowment. as i said in an earlier note--answer your own question for us. niche USM.
pick some state universities. yeah i know Miami of Ohio and James Madison may qualify as some (but in a limited way). Why not pick Kent State or Bowling Green State in Ohio?
oh--to add a point about the management report (which may be dead). the presidents of the big universities had limited, if any, choice about the comparison universities. the IHL made those decisions.
quote: Originally posted by: stinky cheese man "Why not pick Kent State or Bowling Green State in Ohio? "
I'd certainly be pleased to be in a peer grouping with either of them. They, too, seem to have found a niche in the face of stiff competition from other state schools in Ohio.
But my personal opinion about all of this is not important. I was just trying to get a thread started on what I thought was one of the most pressing issues issues facing USM today (as Invictus called it, "The $64,000 question.") I tried for quite a few years, unsuccessfully, to find an answer. I was once told that it was not to my advantage to ask questions such as that.
quote: Originally posted by: Googler "At the risk of sounding like I am trying to bring athletics into this thread, I think Southern Miss often looks at other Conference USA member institutions (not including Tulane, obviously) as a "peer group." "
Googler,
I once thought precisely the same was as you describe - excluding Tulane, of course. But the C-USA membership has changed to frequently that it is very difficult to determine just who is in that conference at any given time. Cincinnati and Louiville are schools I would put on my peer list. But not because of their athletic program.