099 Courses - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Jul 29, 2004

RE: RE: 099 Courses

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Interested
"Does anyone at USM track the 099 students over time to ascertain how well they do? ... Its not like USM's students are coming out of the best high schools in America. Some need the extra help. They get that help and move on.
"

Didn't you know our students are all above average? That is why we have grade inflation with so many weak students. If you graduate from USM with a 3.0 average, you are in the bottom have of your class.

Online Prof is just reporting how easy it was for him/her so it should be that way for everyone. Too bad he/she didn't go on to medical school. We should make sure the med schools have remedial classes too.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by: Invictus
" I know of no Mississippi public community or junior college that was founded after 1970."

I am sure Invictus knows this, but other posters may not be aware of this bit of history, but some of Mississippi's community colleges were formerly publicly-supported boarding high schools. And really good ones at that! What is now Southwest Community College in Summit, for instance, was once Pike County Agricultural High School. Alumni of that high school still have an annual reunion right on the Southwest Community College campus. Southwest's President & Dean usually attend the function and greet the former high school "Aggie" graduates. Those publicly-supported boarding high schools were developed when Mississippi was even more rural than it is today. Those forerunners to our community colleges provided an opprotunity for Mississippi residents to obtain a good high school education, sometimes not otherwise obtainable.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Online Prof
"I have read on this board that most people posting here are not employed by USM and most are not even faculty. I believe that now, or at least I do not want to accept what I am reading in this thread as coming from current faculty. Some of you are so focused on getting rid of Thames that you have completely abandoned your students. "

I take back what I said. Now that I think about it, I have no way of knowing if any of you are faculty or not. So I will assume the later.....not faculty.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Online Prof
""Much of what's wrong with colleges today" is a bitter faculty that has lost interest in educating students or a faculty that thinks it is too good to spend their time on 099 students. This is not about screwing students or increasing enrollment to make a president look good. This is about a faculty that has lost its original purpose."

I take back what I said. Now that I think about it, I have no way of knowing if any of you are faculty or not. So I will assume the later.....not faculty

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Outside Observer
"You misunderstand...It is only about NOT passing students who haven't performed at REASONABLE standards...it is about NOT having students in senior level undergraduate course who cannot write complete sentences. It IS about having reasonable standards and enforcing them so that degrees have SOME meaning."

If the students are being put into 099 classes, it sounds to me like the standards are being enforced.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: OutSider
"Online professor must like lower quality students. He sounds as if he is ST's biggest supporter. As a former administrator and faculty member at USM I do have an interest in the well-being of the university. Quantity never replaces quality. It sounds as if Online wants USM to become a trade school. "

Well because you chose to make this personal, I will play your game at least once. I am glad you are a "former administrator and faculty member." Students need faculty who truly believe they can bring quality to a class of students that does not have much of it. With you gone, it might be an opportunity for someone to come in who believes this. You want to make a difference by turning away the students; I want to make a difference by working with them.

Maybe USM can do the 099 classes better than the jr. colleges can. I would like to think so. At least here we know what we will be getting when they leave our 099 classes. When they come from 099-type classes at the jr. college, we really do not know how they were served in those classes.

No comment on your ST and trade-school threat other than to say you are trying to get this thread off-topic. If you want to talk about that, start another post please.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

My frustration with the 099 classes aren't the students at all. It's that we don't have enough faculty including adjuncts who have teaching skills to teach these classes. They are being added to our teaching loads, and it won't help us a bit in receiving merit raises. Our teaching loads increase, the expectations for service, research, and teaching remain the same. I happen to teach a graduate class and 2 undergrad classes (300 - 400 levels) where they normally go over the 25 seat cap. When you are passed over for merit pay (although you are producing but your chair is a self serving underachiever), even though you are being published in research journals, your service takes up at least 30 hours of your week since you are addressing a national accreditation concern, and you are teaching 3 huge classes and ARE THEN told that you have to pick up a 099 course since "we are currently understaffed" - it becomes unbelievably frustrating. Some of those 099 students WILL make it, others won't. I'd love to give them all my attention - but USM has lost its focus on teaching. Good teaching gets you nowhere currently at USM. They undervalue teaching. Prove me wrong on that one.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Online Prof
"Although my field is not English and I have only online teaching experience, I have volunteered to teach one 099 English class at night this coming Fall FOR FREE. I used to teach basic writing to inmates in the state prison, so I assume I can do it to 099 students also. My proposal was never answered, so I am not sure about the posts about having a shortage of teachers for these classes. It does not seem to add up. "

Who did you address your inquiry to? Angela Ball, chair of USM's English Department? Perhaps you didn't meet the minimum requirements for adjuncts at USM (18 hrs. of graduate coursework in English).

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Former chair
"I doubt that undergraduate students from USM (or from any comparable school) do any better or any worse when they enter other graduate schools than students whose undergraduate years were spent at Duke or Yale or Vanderbilt. USM students may have more difficulty in being admitted to a prestigious graduate school but, once there, I suspect they do just as well. Every school has its duds, including Harvard, Tulane, and Princeton. When high school graduates enter college as Freshmen, most of them are mere adolescents. I have long felt that a college should not admit a young high-school graduate until a couple of years out of high school (the Army, or the Peace Corps, or a job after high-school - but not college). But there is parental and societal pressure to "Go to college, lest the neighbors think ill of us), so my wait-a-couple-of-years model is never going to be adopted. Therefore, we need to accept the fact that college is a place for adolescents to grow out of their adolescence. It matters not whether that growing-up occurs at a community college, at a four-year liberal arts college, or at a large university - as long as that institution provides an environment for "growing up." My model does not leave room for 099 courses at USM. Invictus is right."

Former chair, you are right on target. After working with first-year honors students at USM for 5 years, I also agree that many 18 year olds would benefit from some "real world" experience before entering college. Of course, some were very well-prepared, both academically and emotionally, for college work and college life. I think that the "take a year off" option, though, should be just that...a viable option for those who want to do that sort of thing before coming to college. I think that the VISTA program or Americorps would be the sort of model to follow (have kids do service projects for a year before college, perhaps in their prospective fields).

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Former chair
"I doubt that undergraduate students from USM (or from any comparable school) do any better or any worse when they enter other graduate schools than students whose undergraduate years were spent at Duke or Yale or Vanderbilt. USM students may have more difficulty in being admitted to a prestigious graduate school but, once there, I suspect they do just as well. Every school has its duds, including Harvard, Tulane, and Princeton. When high school graduates enter college as Freshmen, most of them are mere adolescents. I have long felt that a college should not admit a young high-school graduate until a couple of years out of high school (the Army, or the Peace Corps, or a job after high-school - but not college). But there is parental and societal pressure to "Go to college, lest the neighbors think ill of us), so my wait-a-couple-of-years model is never going to be adopted. Therefore, we need to accept the fact that college is a place for adolescents to grow out of their adolescence. It matters not whether that growing-up occurs at a community college, at a four-year liberal arts college, or at a large university - as long as that institution provides an environment for "growing up." My model does not leave room for 099 courses at USM. Invictus is right."

Former chair, you are right on target. After working with first-year honors students at USM for 5 years, I also agree that many 18 year olds would benefit from some "real world" experience before entering college. Of course, some were very well-prepared, both academically and emotionally, for college work and college life. I think that the "take a year off" option, though, should be just that...a viable option for those who want to do that sort of thing before coming to college. I think that the VISTA program or Americorps would be the sort of model to follow. You could have kids do service projects for a year before college, perhaps in the area they want to major in.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

i think the requirements for adjuncts (not TAs) was changed to be in conformity with SACS. if one is an adjunct, they must have a masters along with 18 hours in the teaching discipline.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

It's amazing to teach 18 yr old boys, especially boys who don't have to work, and then to teach 22-25 yr old young men who have been in service and are coming back to school on their VA/GI benefits. Totally different outlook, plus in A-school they learn how to study (that's the school they go to after basic training.)

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by: truth4usm/AH
"Former chair . . . I think that the "take a year off" option, though, should be just that...a viable option for those who want to do that sort of thing before coming to college."

Fortunately, some of the more-difficult-to-get-into schools do have an "early admissions" plan which permits a full year's entrance deferrment, thereby reducing the student's (and parent's) anxiety about gaining admission at a later date - while at the same time allowing the student to gain that much needed extra year.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

The requirement to take 099 courses is tied exclusively to the ACT subtest score. There are incoming freshmen who graduated with honors, but scored 16 or less in an ACT subtest area and as a result are required to take 099.

My opinion is that it is a bigger problem if more students are being placed in the ENG and CIE 099 sections, because if students cannot comprehend what they are reading or cannot master writing skills, they are going to have difficulties with the majority of their courses. Most of the students who are placed in MAT 099 will never major in a field of study that requires math beyond MAT 101 anyway. I know plenty of bright and successful professionals (with advanced degrees) who will readily admit they are weak in math and see very little applied use for courses such as algebra.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Googler
"I know plenty of bright and successful professionals (with advanced degrees) who will readily admit they are weak in math and see very little applied use for courses such as algebra."

Googler,

I, too, have heard lots of successful professionals use that argument. I have even heard many USM students verbalize that. But I think they have a lack of understanding of what college is all about. They mistakenly believe that college is exclusively designed to prepare them for a trade. If that were the case, the taxpayers are sure wasting their money on them. Most of those "skills" could be best mastered in a trade program (and I have no problem whatsoever with trade programs when they are administered in trade schools). A good liberal arts education helps provide a broad perspective and critical thinking skills. One can't even appreciate Googler's sense of humor without such a foundation, much less order a Pizza in Quebec, or take an informed guess about the meaning of an English word derived from Latin, or understand why World War I is referred to as World War I, or understand why the flashing light on the roof of police cars are blue instead of red, or even read the Wall Street Journal or the New York TImes or the Hattiespatch American with a critical eye. No wonder liberal arts graduates wind up as supervisors, managers, and executives in the technology-oriented industries.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

with respect to math, a number of people over the years have wanted students to take a class in statistics rather than one in, let's say, college algebra. for many students that would benefit them more.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"with respect to math, a number of people over the years have wanted students to take a class in statistics rather than one in, let's say, college algebra. for many students that would benefit them more."

Good idea. I believe that IHL requires College Algebra at all schools. Ole Miss used to have a 6 hour math requirement, and the second course could be statistics. That may still be the case.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

This is a great discussion folks!

But my education is obviously incomplete. Why are the lights blue?

Date: Jul 29, 2004

I have to agree with Former Chair here. Anyone who knows me knows that math is definitely not my strong suit. Regardless, I was required to take College Algebra and a calculus class (for Honors requirement) as an undergraduate majoring in English. Did I dread taking those classes? You bet I did. Do I use calculus in my daily life now? You bet I don't. But, I'm forever grateful that I took those classes because I was exposed to ideas and concepts that I would have never known about otherwise. THAT is the point of a liberal arts education, and THAT is why such requirements should continue.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Emma
"My frustration with the 099 classes aren't the students at all. ...."

Did I read this right Emma on these two points: You are being called upon to teach 099 classes because no teachers are available?

I have no way to put this into effect, but the association or English dept. ought to try to get it so that the dept. can hire people just to teach the 099 classes instead of setting the requirements at 18 graduate hours of English and expecting them to teach other classes. The importance of linking 18 grad hours to someone at a 099 level is negligible. You do not have to be a rocket scientist either to teach 099 level students. You just have to have alot of time and dedication.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

I think Cheese Man and Flash are right on the mark. But, I would add that a liberal education incorporating statistics, if learned on some conceptual level, helps students question what they are told and what they perceive as truth. That sort of liberal, statistical insight cannot be developed in students who struggle with the algebra and wind up lucky to finish the class with some "skills," like putting numbers into formulae and finding a number in a some back-of-the-book table.

The problem with teaching statistics to students who have NOT had at least one good course in college algebra or who scored at or below the 25th percentile on a math test is enormous.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

1) Are any of these 099 classes online, especially the English classes?

2) Is the current English chair directly responsible for these 099 Eng. classes or does it fall under her and somebody else as well?

Date: Jul 29, 2004

done gone--i agree. i'm thinking of it as more of an option for those who have a better hs background. my children both took ap calculus in hs and ended up taking a very similar math course here. both would have benefitted from a statistics course more than retaking calculus.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by: Googler
"The requirement to take 099 courses is tied exclusively to the ACT subtest score. There are incoming freshmen who graduated with honors, but scored 16 or less in an ACT subtest area and as a result are required to take 099

I don't know about other colleges, but it is a safe bet that a student with a composite (or math subtest) ACT score of 16 or less is pretty much doomed in the physical sciences. I don't care what kind of trumped up honors they graduated from in high school. I've been seeing this repeated for >15 years here at USM. I see students take the ACT repeatedly and score essentially the same each time. Again, I don't know about COAL, but it measures what COST wants it to measure.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"with respect to math, a number of people over the years have wanted students to take a class in statistics rather than one in, let's say, college algebra. for many students that would benefit them more."

stinky,

A course in statistics would be good. It is, in fact, required in a number of majors. But I believe the core Algebra course is important and should be required of all students. Let the statistics course be taken as one of the electives if the student so desires. I know this will be controversial, but I don't believe anyone should be awarded a college degree in any major without a couple of years in a foreign language (or in a classical language). And that pertains to the B.S. as well as the B.A. My position has nothing to do with the student's actually using that langage in his/her chosen profession: it just seems to an essential part of a good college education. That in no way means that I endorse the language requirement at the doctoral level. There was an interesting study in a journal in my particular discipline, indicating that the more languages a graduate program requires (0, 1, or 2), the less prestigious the graduate program! (Besides, the need for the prospective research to learn to translate research articles does not exist to the extent it did many years ago). When I first arrived at USM, I thought the graduate school's foreign language policy was a bit strange. Specifically, the traditional rationalle for requiring such reading knowledge is to enable the student to read the research literature in the field Nonetheless, USM allowed sign language to be used as "language" for this purpose. Now just how many articles in your field are published in sign language? When I challenged that policy, I was told something like, "But sign language is so much more practical than French or German." Perhaps it was that career college influence I have seen mentioned on this message board.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

fortunately the foreign language requirement for the doctorate was changed a couple of years ago--now departments have to have a research tool, and it can be foreign language if they want it to be, or it can be something else. like you, in my discipline, if it isn't written in english it's probably not very good or important.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: truth4usm/AH
"Who did you address your inquiry to? Angela Ball, chair of USM's English Department? Perhaps you didn't meet the minimum requirements for adjuncts at USM (18 hrs. of graduate coursework in English)."

There is no way I would tell you who I sent it to. That would establish my identity here on this board. After seeing what has happened to some of the posters on this board for the comments they have made, I would be more afraid of a faculty response than a Thames’ response regarding some of my comments. That is, I should definitely remain anonymous.

I do not meet the 18 grad hours of English, and that is more than likely why I was not contacted. The requirements for instructors to teach 099 classes should be different though. It has been my experience that 099 students need help with syntax, organization, and the very basics of grammar. To instruct that type of student, I do not need 18 grad hours of English, which seemed to me to be mostly literature requirements.

Listen to this funny circumstance. I am in the field of social science, but I got into college because of my English scores on the ACT. They were far above average. In fact, I missed only two questions in the English section. Furthermore, the only A's I got in high school were in my English classes. Go figure.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

One thing for sure, the current requirements are not right for the type of student at the 099 level. There need to be other requirements that focus specifically on how dedicated and caring the instructor will be. If you put someone in there to teach a 099 class because there is an overload of students and an understaffing of instructors, those students are doomed. If Thames has something to do with that, then we should address it to him. However, I suspect the deans and chairs can address this just as well.

Let us be candid here. How many instructors with a master's would want to spend their time teaching 099 Eng. classes? I would, but really, how many people do we know like this? I have been at the bottom, in that I tutored inmates, so going to 099 would be a step up for me. But for instructors with a master's and for instructors already at USM, the 099 classes must surely be a step down. These factors should be worked into the considerations given to employment standards of the 099 instructors.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Online Prof
"...
I do not meet the 18 grad hours of English, and that is more than likely why I was not contacted. The requirements for instructors to teach 099 classes should be different though. It has been my experience that 099 students need help with syntax, organization, and the very basics of grammar. To instruct that type of student, I do not need 18 grad hours of English, which seemed to me to be mostly literature requirements.Listen to this funny circumstance. I am in the field of social science, but I got into college because of my English scores on the ACT. They were far above average. In fact, I missed only two questions in the English section. Furthermore, the only A's I got in high school were in my English classes. Go figure.
"

Online Prof, you do realize we are talking about teaching high school subject matter at a university. Mississippi is the poorest state in the union and can't afford to have high school material taught at university. Cost-benefit for the tax paying citizens will never make this a good idea.

In addition these students can't compete with "serious" student who took the college prep curriculum and are ready for university. You don't realize this because of the huge grade inflation problem USM has. But you must notice that Mississippi is still on the bottom educationally and economically even with all of our universities and Community Colleges.

Just because everyone and their grandmother has a degree doesn’t mean they are educated, especially in this state.