099 Courses - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Jul 29, 2004

099 Courses

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Student Services R US
"If you can't meet the minimum requirements to get into college, you probably can't graduate. "

Student Services R US,

I am sure the powers that be at USM would not allow that to happen. It would be much like selling a car to someone you full well knew could not make the payments, and then repossessing the vehicle after the buyer made a very large downpayment sacrifice and then was late on the first few payment or two.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: We Sell Dreams
" Student Services R US, I am sure the powers that be at USM would not allow that to happen. It would be much like selling a car to someone you full well knew could not make the payments, and then repossessing the vehicle after the buyer made a very large downpayment sacrifice and then was late on the first few payment or two. "

They would most definitely not allow that to happen, Dreamer. As friend Dickie once said, "That would be wrong."

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Student Services R US
"Any academic worth their salt knows USM is setting these kids up for failure. If you can't meet the minimum requirements to get into college, you porbably can't graduate."

Can this be any more pessimistic? USM is trying to help these students by giving them 099 classes and the rationale here is that these students are being screwed. I feel sorry for students at USM who have instructors who have this type of philosophy. Those instructors are setting their students up to fail. It is not USM who is setting these students up to fail.

By offering these 099 classes, USM is trying to help these students meet the minimum requirements. Where would these students have gone before there was such a thing as community colleges? Would USM have turned them away then too? Yes, and there is something evil about that. No one should be deprived of college. If students are willing to take these classes knowing full well that they will not count toward their degree, then those students are in the right mind-set for success. That student will just need a good instructor to help the student get to the next level, hopefully one that does not think the student is already a failure. It sounds to me the real problem here is that some instructors do not want to fool with this type of student, and to me that is an academic sin.

The first time I applied to USM I was rejected outright and made to go to community college to take math and biology just because I did so poorly on the ACT and failed some classes in high school. I did it, and then finally went to USM. Even at the community college they tried to put me in remedial math and science. I absolutely refused to do this and made them put me in the "real thing." I made a B in math and a B in biology and a C in chemistry, but I still passed the real non-099 classes. Eventually I went as far as the Ph.D. and I certainly did not need a 099 class although that is what Admissions told me I had to do. I know most of the students classified as 099 are not like me though. They do need real help. I hope USM will one day be the place to get it.

If there are not enough teachers, then the students will have to wait until some become available or the students will have to go to community college if they do not want to wait.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

I will briefly repeat my comments in another thread - enrollment management is alive and well at USM now. Others have come in to tell ST how to keep students in classes and not fail. Now the pressure is on to keep students in classes - failure will not be an option. OutSider

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Online Prof
"No one should be deprived of college."

Yes sir, we can put you and the little lady into one of our de-luxe kadi-li-aks. Can't qualify for a loan? Don't worry about that. We have our own finance department. Nobody is turned down.You say you are considering buying one of those dinky kazoomobiles from our competitor down the road? Whoever would want to be seen driving around in one of those? Now ya'll step into this office and let me introduce you to our financing expert.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Student Services R US
"Verified: There are currently 36 sections of 099 classes for fall. They are all full and contain almost 400 students. There are 11 sections of English 099 alone, but some may be cancelled due to teacher shortage. USM is now offering at least 6 sections of 099 reading classes. It would be interesting to know how many students are in all three 099 classes: Reading, english and math. Also, what percentage of total entering freshmen and transfers are registered in at least one 099. Any academic worth their salt knows USM is setting these kids up for failure. If you can't meet the minimum requirements to get into college, you porbably can't graduate. Maybe USM can offer a major in remedial studies, which of course will be housed in Economic Development."

Again, more slanted reporting. How do these numbers compare with last year? I think you might be surprised, although that doesn't fit this board's agenda, does it?

Date: Jul 29, 2004

No student should be deprived of college?! Regardless of their aptitude?!? And then they should be helped to the next level?!?!

Let them in and then pass them, huh? We're already much to close to this model in "higher education." Much of what's wrong with colleges and universities today.

quote:
Originally posted by: Online Prof
I feel sorry for students at USM who have instructors who have this type of philosophy. Those instructors are setting their students up to fail. .... No one should be deprived of college. If students are willing to take these classes knowing full well that they will not count toward their degree, then those students are in the right mind-set for success. That student will just need a good instructor to help the student get to the next level, hopefully one that does not think the student is already a failure. It sounds to me the real problem here is that some instructors do not want to fool with this type of student, and to me that is an academic sin.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

Outsider posted this on another thread (on "daily rumor mill #70. But it seems to be important to the theme of this thread too, so I am moving a copy of it here:

Author: OutSider

Date: 41 min, 26 sec. ago
Views: 19

QuoteRE: daily rumor mill #70

What no one at USM has addressed here is what pressure the faculty will be under to keep these 099s in class after their first semester. What does anyone know about the quiet effort to call in others from other universities to provide ST/USM with enrollment management tools? It has been going on over the summer. So what will the faculty do when it becomes "understood" that F grades and maybe even D grades, academic probation, suspension, etc. no longer have importance? My experience at other universities is ofthen this results in a university gaining a rep that no university ever wants. Academic disaster. So USM friends you've not seen anything yet. One OutSider that's glad he's gone from USM.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

There was a case several years ago where an instructor in Georgia was fired for failing an athlete and refusing to be "reasonable" about the grade. As I recall, she was eventually awarded a quite handsome settlement.

What people like "stupid" and others of like mind do not realize is that a university education has never been a right available to all. (The opportunity should be available, but the education itself has to be earned.) That's high school. How much is a high school diploma worth? That's what your degree from USM will be worth when it is eventually known as a diploma mill.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Online Prof
"By offering these 099 classes, USM is trying to help these students meet the minimum requirements. Where would these students have gone before there was such a thing as community colleges? Would USM have turned them away then too? Yes, and there is something evil about that. No one should be deprived of college. "

First, this state has had 2-year colleges since around 1925. So the question "Where would these students have gone?" is moot.

By offering more 099 sections, all USM is doing is moving in on a "market share" that has heretofore been denied it by antiquated selective admissions.

Community colleges went through a lot of criticism in the 1980s when the "open door" became viewed in some states as a "revolving door." One institution that became notorious for this was Miami-Dade Community College & it eventually resulted in state mandated rising junior testing. And that test applies to university "native students" as well as transfers.

Indications are that USM is perfectly willing to apply a rising junior test to CC transfers (Praxis exam) but is not equally willing to test its own native students. In fact, Exline is using the possibility of testing USM native students as a bargaining chip with CC admins in the current articulation agreement negotiations.

If USM is going to become de facto open admissions, then it needs to do that across the board. Creating a shipload of 099 sections while toeing a "strict line" on CC articulation is plain contradictory behavior.

I will reiterate this & continue to do so until it sinks in: Community colleges are much more cost effective for the majority of entering freshmen than are universities. Do a simple comparison of the cost-per-FTE between CCs & universities. Then do a Chi Square on the grade distributions of upper division CC transfers vs. USM natives. What you are going to find is that CCs educate freshmen & sophomores for a fraction of what it costs at USM & at the junior or senior level, the CC transfers are indistinguishable from the USM natives in terms of both current term & cumulative GPAs.

Yes, no one should be deprived of college. But that does not mean that no one should be denied the opportunity to fail, either.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: How stupid can you be
"Again, more slanted reporting. How do these numbers compare with last year? I think you might be surprised, although that doesn't fit this board's agenda, does it?"

Check your definition of "slanted" reporting, Stupid. It might be incomplete, but not slanted.

I can remember the days when I was at USM (back in 85-89) when there were only 2 sections of 099 English at most. When I worked in the Honors College (95-00), the number was the same. Therefore, I can verify that somewhere between 2000-2004, there was an increase from 2 to 11. Pretty high increase, wouldn't you say?

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: LVN
"That's what your degree from USM will be worth when it is eventually known as a diploma mill."

USM can be as good, or as bad, as it wants to be (within the constraints of financial considerations, of course). It all depends on "level of aspiration." USM's level of aspiration has not been terribly high (except in words only, such as "We're wurl' class" or "We have the best department X in a three-state area") - even before the current administration. There have been a few isolated exceptions ("pockets of excellence") at USM, but it is very difficult for an isolated department to rise above its college's level of aspiration and remain at that level. An inexperienced, incompetent, or unknowlegable dean, for instance, can clip a department's wings in the twinkling of an eye.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

Thought I would cross-post this informative blurb from Anonymous from another thread. This is a huge change, folks, and I'm sure the academic advisors at USM are spitting mad about it (I remember the heated debates a few years ago about changing the suspension policy):

RE: daily rumor mill #70

On a similar note, USM recently changed its suspension policy. Previously, students on suspension had to sit out a semester before being readmitted. For example, students flunking out after the spring semester had to sit out the fall semester before being readmitted. The summer semester didn't count. Without fanfare, the administration changed the policy so that the summer semester did count. So..... if you flunk out in the spring, you can still enroll in the fall just as like anyone else...serving your suspension semester during the summer, when you probably wouldn't be enrolled anyway
Since most 099 students will be on probation by the beginning of spring semester and then will flunk out after the spring semester, we'll have 'em back by August to pay another semester of tuition.
SMTTT!

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: First Ant at the Picnic
" There have been a few isolated exceptions ("pockets of excellence") at USM, but it is very difficult for an isolated department to rise above its college's level of aspiration and remain at that level. "

A good example of a "wurl-class" department is the English Department. The Center for Writers was consistently ranked in the top ten creative writing programs nationally (also, it's one of the few that offer a PhD in CW, so it attracts many students from all over the US). Now, with the departure of Mary Robison and DC Berry, it has lost 1/3 of its faculty. And as noted elsewhere, the English Dept. overall has no junior faculty at present. This is an abomination that would never be allowed to happen in the Polymer Science Dept., not on Shelboo's watch, at least.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: truth4usm/AH
"...from Anonymous from another thread.
RE: daily rumor mill #70 <SNIP> Since most 099 students will be on probation by the beginning of spring semester and then will flunk out after the spring semester, we'll have 'em back by August to pay another semester of tuition.SMTTT!"

See? Already the "open door" (which hasn't been announced) has been mutated into the "revolving door." Let 'em in & take the tuition. Kick 'em out, but let 'em in again a.s.a.p.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

I'm confused by this discussion of relaxed admission standards at USM. It was my understanding that minimum admission standards were set by the IHL, and that they applied system wide:
"Full admission will be granted to the following:
(1) All students completing the College Preparatory Curriculum (CPC) with a minimum of a 3.20 high school grade point average (GPA) on the CPC; or
(2) All students completing the College Preparatory Curriculum (CPC) with (a) a minimum of a 2.50 high school GPA on the CPC or a class rank in the top 50%, and (b) a score of 16 or higher on the ACT (Composite); or
(3) All students completing the College preparatory Curriculum (CPC) with (a) a minimum of a 2.00 high school GPA on the CPC and (b) a score of 18 or higher on the ACT (Composite).
(4) NCAA Division I standards for student athletes
who are "full-qualifiers" are accepted as equivalent to the admission standards established
by the Board.
In lieu of ACT scores, students may submit equivalent SAT scores. Students scoring below 16 on the ACT(Composite) or the equivalent SAT are encouraged to participate in the Year-Long Academic Support Program during their freshman year." (http://www.ihl.state.ms.us/admin/downloads/policiesandbylaws.pdf)

MSU regularly accepts students with very low ACT scores (although they tend not to stay very long, and the university under Portera sent all applicants with low scores a letter detailing the poor outcomes for students with ACTs

Date: Jul 29, 2004

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe 099 courses are mandated by IHL policy. If I recall correctly, students who score a 16 or below on a subtest of the ACT (e.g., English or math) must enroll in the appropriate 099 class. If the demand for 099 courses is being met completely and students are taking all of the required courses in the fall term, the number of students in those classes would be an indication of how many students have scores of 16 or below.

It is also important to note that admission standards are set by IHL. Test scores of incoming freshman are more a reflection of who is recruited and attracted to a school than of local admission standards. Because of the Ayers case, all Mississippi state schools have the same admission standards on paper.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

The rest of the post (It was cut off for some reason)

MSU regularly accepts students with very low ACT scores (although they tend not to stay very long, and the university under Portera sent all applicants with low scores a letter detailing the poor outcomes for students with ACTs below 18 in an attempt to discourage their attendance).

It seems to me that an increase in 099 enrollees implies that these students are now choosing to attend USM. That may imply that USM does a better job mentoring at risk students or it may reflect an impression by students that USM is "easier". HOwever I do not see how this can be attributed to a new admissions policy.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Outside Observer
"No student should be deprived of college?! Regardless of their aptitude?!? And then they should be helped to the next level?!?!Let them in and then pass them, huh? We're already much to close to this model in "higher education." Much of what's wrong with colleges and universities today."

That is correct. They should be "educated" to the next level....something many faculty here do not feel they should be doing. "Much of what's wrong with colleges today" is a bitter faculty that has lost interest in educating students or a faculty that thinks it is too good to spend their time on 099 students. This is not about screwing students or increasing enrollment to make a president look good. This is about a faculty that has lost its original purpose.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: palindrome
"It was my understanding that minimum admission standards were set by the IHL, and that they applied system wide."

It is my understanding that in some state systems of higher education (I don't know about Mississippi), the university president can admit something like X%, at his/her discretion, even when that student does not meet lthe minimum admissions standard set by the governing board. I have been told that the X% is normally reserved for outstanding athletes who could not otherwise meet the admisisons standard. I do not know whether I was given the correct information. Can anyone speak to this?

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
" I will reiterate this & continue to do so until it sinks in: Community colleges are much more cost effective for the majority of entering freshmen than are universities. Do a simple comparison of the cost-per-FTE between CCs & universities. Then do a Chi Square on the grade distributions of upper division CC transfers vs. USM natives. What you are going to find is that CCs educate freshmen & sophomores for a fraction of what it costs at USM & at the junior or senior level, the CC transfers are indistinguishable from the USM natives in terms of both current term & cumulative GPAs. "

So? When I started college in my 20s I knew community college was much cheaper than USM. Yet I still wanted to bypass jr. college and go straight to USM regardless of the cost. And do you not think those in the 099 classes are aware of those cost differences too? There should not be a presumption, that because jr. colleges are cheaper, all students should be going there instead of going to USM

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
" First, this state has had 2-year colleges since around 1925. So the question "Where would these students have gone?" is moot."

But community colleges were not widespread and they certainly were not in commuting distances like they are now and before the 1970s there were few junior colleges, so it most certainly is not moot.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: LVN
"
What people like "stupid" and others of like mind do not realize is that a university education has never been a right available to all. (The opportunity should be available, but the education itself has to be earned.) That's high school. How much is a high school diploma worth? That's what your degree from USM will be worth when it is eventually known as a diploma mill."

I believe there will still be about 124 others hours these students will have to pass before they get their diploma. It does not follow because USM is giving increased 099 classes that USM will be a diploma mill.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

I have read on this board that most people posting here are not employed by USM and most are not even faculty. I believe that now, or at least I do not want to accept what I am reading in this thread as coming from current faculty. Some of you are so focused on getting rid of Thames that you have completely abandoned your students.

Although my field is not English and I have only online teaching experience, I have volunteered to teach one 099 English class at night this coming Fall FOR FREE. I used to teach basic writing to inmates in the state prison, so I assume I can do it to 099 students also. My proposal was never answered, so I am not sure about the posts about having a shortage of teachers for these classes. It does not seem to add up.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

You misunderstand...It is only about NOT passing students who haven't performed at REASONABLE standards...it is about NOT having students in senior level undergraduate course who cannot write complete sentences. It IS about having reasonable standards and enforcing them so that degrees have SOME meaning.

quote:

Originally posted by: Online Prof
"That is correct. They should be "educated" to the next level....something many faculty here do not feel they should be doing. "Much of what's wrong with colleges today" is a bitter faculty that has lost interest in educating students or a faculty that thinks it is too good to spend their time on 099 students. This is not about screwing students or increasing enrollment to make a president look good. This is about a faculty that has lost its original purpose."

Date: Jul 29, 2004

I doubt that undergraduate students from USM (or from any comparable school) do any better or any worse when they enter other graduate schools than students whose undergraduate years were spent at Duke or Yale or Vanderbilt. USM students may have more difficulty in being admitted to a prestigious graduate school but, once there, I suspect they do just as well. Every school has its duds, including Harvard, Tulane, and Princeton. When high school graduates enter college as Freshmen, most of them are mere adolescents. I have long felt that a college should not admit a young high-school graduate until a couple of years out of high school (the Army, or the Peace Corps, or a job after high-school - but not college). But there is parental and societal pressure to "Go to college, lest the neighbors think ill of us), so my wait-a-couple-of-years model is never going to be adopted. Therefore, we need to accept the fact that college is a place for adolescents to grow out of their adolescence. It matters not whether that growing-up occurs at a community college, at a four-year liberal arts college, or at a large university - as long as that institution provides an environment for "growing up." My model does not leave room for 099 courses at USM. Invictus is right.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Online Prof
"
But community colleges were not widespread and they certainly were not in commuting distances like they are now and before the 1970s there were few junior colleges, so it most certainly is not moot. "

I know of no Mississippi public community or junior college that was founded after 1970. And there are currently 15 or 16, depending on whether Meridian CC (which is essentially muncipal) is included in the mix.

Pearl River CC began offering college classes in 1925 or 26. Perkinston Junior College (now Perkinston Campus of MGCCC) began its college division in 1926, IIRC. Jones JC came in a little later, but not much. All of these are within a 40 min commute of H'burg. Of course, in the 1920s the commuting time was much greater.

If USM is admitting underqualified out-of-state students, the argument that it's merely a "take the tuition & run" situation becomes much stronger.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

Online professor must like lower quality students. He sounds as if he is ST's biggest supporter. As a former administrator and faculty member at USM I do have an interest in the well-being of the university. Quantity never replaces quality. It sounds as if Online wants USM to become a trade school.

Date: Jul 29, 2004

Does anyone at USM track the 099 students over time to ascertain how well they do? My understanding was that these courses helped students make up for deficiencies in their high school training. Its not like USM's students are coming out of the best high schools in America. Some need the extra help. They get that help and move on.