Regarding Email and Community Support - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Jul 21, 2004

Regarding Email and Community Support

Date: Jul 21, 2004

"Many of you make well over $100k per year, when the average working class citizen in the state makes less that $26k. When he is scraping to get by making $10/hr, and you are complaining about not getting a raise from $92k to $95k, it falls on deaf ears."

I'm not sure where you get these numbers. As it says on the AAUP website, the average faculty salary is about $54000/yr. Only the top administrators and a small number of senior faculty in a few departments make more than 100K/yr.

Date: Jul 21, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by: Seeker
". . . few of you would dare put yourselves on the same level as the lowly public servents in the department of transportation or the department of health and human services."

Seeker, I am not going to dissect your most recent posting. I will leave it to truth4usm to do that, as she can so well if she so chooses. But I do want to comment on an unbelievably naive statement you have made. I have spent decades in academics - in public service, not in self-service. I am a public servant. How dare you imply otherwise! And how dare you describe employees of the department of transportation, or the department of health and human services, as "lowely." My mother was an employee of the department of human services. She was not lowly. She was a fine lady. Honest. Hard working. Lots of integrity. And she married a fine, honest, hard working integrity-filled man, my father. Both of them were in the service of the state of Mississippi until they died or retired. Son, you need to find out something about what is commonly described as the "working class."

Date: Jul 21, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: COST faculty
""Many of you make well over $100k per year, when the average working class citizen in the state makes less that $26k. When he is scraping to get by making $10/hr, and you are complaining about not getting a raise from $92k to $95k, it falls on deaf ears."

Bogus numbers indeed. You will find that in the early 2000's some faculty members signed up with USM for $32,000 or so with a master's degree. (Not sure of numbers for Ph.D.) That is less than the average pay of a Mississippi teacher... with more experience, but still, that is a telling comparison.

Don't let anyone fool you by saying that the USM faculty are rolling in the dough around 100K a year - that is completely untrue. There are advantages to jobs in academe, and the people who choose such jobs often do so because of their love for working with students. People who take and hold state jobs in Mississippi know the raises are few and far between, but sometimes stick around for the ties to family or ties to the institution and students. Benefits such as tenure and state medical benefits are nice too, but even they are eroding.

The fact is that other schools, outside of Mississippi, will always offer more money and more benefits, and the people who stay here have motivations beyond salary and the standard benefits, which is something that is hard to make people realize!

Date: Jul 21, 2004

Seeker,

I don't know where you're getting your numbers either.

At Clemson (where the average faculty salary is substantially higher than at USM, though still below the national average) the vast majority of those making $100K or more a year are administrators. In my discipline (psychology) you can simply forget about a professor at Clemson making $100K a year.

While you are right that employees who criticize upper management are summarily fired at many companies, it doesn't follow that that is the best way to run a company. In any event, there are always going to be people who believe that blind obedience to those who exercise authority is more important than honesty, truthfulness--even efficiency.

Robert Campbell

Date: Jul 21, 2004

Thank goodness Seeker showed up - it's been at least 10 minutes since we got a lecture about courting the "common man" and the court of public opinion....

Aren't you in Virginia, Seeker? How doth thou gauge public opinion from so far away? And where do you get your numbers for salaries? And, lastly, don't you realize how hard the faculty worked to get their salaries? I'm not sure that you do, but please realize that a typical Masters degree takes about two years to earn, a PhD anywhere from 3-5, and this is typically followed up by low-salaried "post-doc" work. If the people of Hattiesburg don't understand this, that is not the faculty's fault. You don't see the faculty at Vandy, LSU, Millsaps, Ole Miss, etc telling the "common man" why they get paid what they do, correct?

Date: Jul 21, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: First Ant at the Picnic
""

If you can't read the sarcasm in that part of the post, I can't help you there. If the statement dosen't apply to you then it dosen't. If you honestly don't feel yourself better than other "public servents" great for you, you are being overly sensitive. I am quite sure you mother is/was a dear, sweat woman, and no disrespect was intended her.

If you truly see yourself as a public servent, then you are one of the few. But, at the same time, many of you would never think of being subjected to the rules and regulations that other state employees are subjected too. You have said it yourselves, but not in those exact words.

None of this changes the fact that you are in a situation far better than the average Mississippian, and instead of explaining your situation, you have colluges who lash out in news papers and make the situation harder on you.

Date: Jul 21, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: The Rock
"Thank goodness Seeker showed up - it's been at least 10 minutes since we got a lecture about courting the "common man" and the court of public opinion....
Aren't you in Virginia, Seeker? How doth thou gauge public opinion from so far away? And where do you get your numbers for salaries? And, lastly, don't you realize how hard the faculty worked to get their salaries? I'm not sure that you do, but please realize that a typical Masters degree takes about two years to earn, a PhD anywhere from 3-5, and this is typically followed up by low-salaried "post-doc" work. If the people of Hattiesburg don't understand this, that is not the faculty's fault. You don't see the faculty at Vandy, LSU, Millsaps, Ole Miss, etc telling the "common man" why they get paid what they do, correct? "

Do what you want. If you don't want to be rid of SFT then go right along with what you're doing now. Because without a ground swell in the community he'll be there as long as he wants. You're only chance right now is if he tries to oust Bower and the athletic community rise up, that's how Fleming was ousted. Not by the faculty, but by the Athletic Boosters and community.

It's past time for SFT to be gone, even thought he did some good, and you guys aren't doing what it will take to unseat him. If you want to laugh at me make jokes, call names, whatever. I don't care.

But, we all what a new admin at Southern Miss. I want a new admin and new faculty leadership, but that's just me.

We won't get a new admin with the faculty acting like they have been. As you should realize by now, your hero are gone, and SFT is not.

Your strategy is not working, and nothing will work until you get the community on your side. Laugh and joke, but you've only won a few battles and Thames is still on pace to win the war. You don't have to like it, but that's what is happening. Shoot the messenger if you choose, but it won't change a thing.

Date: Jul 21, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Seeker
"None of this changes the fact that you are in a situation far better than the average Mississippian."

Seeker, why must you sound so condescending? How can you say that I am "in a situation far better than the average Mississippian?" How can you describe that as a
"fact." How could you possibly know anything like that? You don't know me from Adam. You know nothing about me except what I choose to tell you - and that's not much. A week or so ago, you said you had moved to Richmond. Why don't you wander down to the Fan District and talk to some of those VCU students. They'll set you straight.

Date: Jul 21, 2004

Granny always said not to rassle a pig. All you get is muddy & the pig enjoys the attention.

Date: Jul 21, 2004

When I came to USM in the mid 90's with a Ph.D. as an assistant prof. I made 35,000 (and could teach summer school for 7500 more if I so chose). When I left around 2001, my salary had risen to 40,500!! And my summer school teaching had risen to 8500!!!!!. What's more - had I gone up for promotion - I could hope to make anywhere from 3500 - 5000 more!!! The state hasn't been giving any real raises and in order to see a real raise most (not all, I know not all, but the majority) have joined or made a "deal" with the cah - oven.

Date: Jul 21, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Seeker
"I know that when you read this topic, most of you said to yourself, "Seeker is on a rant again.", but you would be only partly right. Most of you are wondering how I am going to somewhat intelligently tie email policy and community support togeter into one topic. But, if you will bare with me for a few paragraphs you will see that I have at least the intellect of an average village idiot. Below in a thread titled UPD Crime Log, we debated the difference between email policy in the private sector vs. academia. I can't really say public sector, because it really dosen't apply. Because I would say that few of you would dare put yourselves on the same level as the lowly public servents in the department of transportation or the department of health and human services. Herein lies part of your problem with public preception. The "man on the street" can in no way relate to you (faculty memebers). You claim to be mistreated, maybe you are, but you have benefits that most working class people in Mississippi can't even imagin. Many of you make well over $100k per year, when the average working class citizen in the state makes less that $26k. When he is scraping to get by making $10/hr, and you are complaining about not getting a raise from $92k to $95k, it falls on deaf ears. If my company hired someone who I felt was not qualified for a position higher than me, and I decided to "investigate" his credentials, I would be fired on the spot. Anyone outside of adademia would be, we can't relate to how that can happen. Tenure isn't understood by 90% of the general population. Get Joe Parker to call us stupid again, but most people see tenure as a way for a university proff to have a job for life without having to do anything. Is that accurate, I don't think so, but in some cases it sure looks like it. These are all strikes against your cause in the court of public opinion. You have to work harder to over come these things. So far all you've had people like Parker and the Eastern European chemistry proff come out in the papers and throw gas on the fire. You must do a better job at reaching out to the community if you want their support, becaue now most of the community sees you as something that most of you would not find flattering."

Fun and games with Seeker!

First, you've got to find a nicer way to put things, Seeker. I think you might suffer from the same problem that you accuse those professors of having...a problem with "PR" talk. Take a page from your own book and you'll go farther on this board.

Second, one of your other problems is that you make sweeping generalizations about people on this board when you have no way of knowing if they are true. Would it surprise you to know that I spent my first 2 years in the "real world" after grad school working as a "lowly public servant" that you mentioned? I know what it's like to work for the Gummit and get almost zero respect from everyone. It was a tough job, but it taught me a lot.

Third, the point of most of your posts seem to be to promote some version of "no academic could make it in the 'real world'" or "university professors are all loafing on the taxpayers dime." Have you read any rebuttal on this board to this line of thought? We've discussed this time and time again (how much time professors really spend on advising, grading, working on committees, doing their own research, etc.). What more do you want, Seeker?

I say this all to say that I don't think it's productive to engage you on this topic anymore. You've made up your mind, and nothing's going to change it.

Date: Jul 21, 2004

PS--I still don't see any link to email and community support in your post....

Date: Jul 21, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
"Granny always said not to rassle a pig. All you get is muddy & the pig enjoys the attention."

Invictus,

I heard it like this: "Granny always said not to try to teach a pig to read. It frustrates you and makes the pig angry."

Date: Jul 21, 2004

Okay, I know, I know, I shouldn't bother with Seeker but . . . .

At USM I was an assoc. prof. with 14 years experience. I have three advanced degrees. I made $43 thousand. When I went on the job market last fall, I interviewed for an entry-level job at budgeted at $42. Recently in my new state, I saw an advertisement recruiting assistant managers for a gas-station/convenience store at $36.

Sorry, I just had to get that off my chest. I'm NOT in this for the money (obviously), but it just irks me when people assume a) I'm rolling in dough, and b) I'm lazy.

At least I don't have to worry about being held up.

Date: Jul 22, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Seeker
"I know that when you read this topic, most of you said to yourself, "Seeker is on a rant again....."

And let us not forget the salary increases they just got that resulted in higher tuition for the students . . . . or was it the other way around. Either way, the students lost and the faculty won.

Date: Jul 22, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Not the Seeker
"
And let us not forget the salary increases they just got that resulted in higher tuition for the students . . . . or was it the other way around. Either way, the students lost and the faculty won."

I didn't know that faculty were empowered to raise tuition or their salaries.

Was 100% of the tuition increase used for raises? And what was the across-the-board rate of the raise? How does the raise compare with the increase in health insurance premiums?

The fact is that politicians in Jackson & Washington have been cutting appropriations. Universities have to make up the difference & tuition is the about only place to do it quickly.

Unless they are different from the general demographic, students (and faculty) voted for those politicians. In fact, a lot of students (and faculty) probably voted for them because they promised to "cut the size of government."

I would say we're all getting precisely what we asked for. We just didn't know that's what we were demanding...

Date: Jul 22, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
"

I didn't know that faculty were empowered to raise tuition or their salaries.

Was 100% of the tuition increase used for raises? And what was the across-the-board rate of the raise? How does the raise compare with the increase in health insurance premiums?

The fact is that politicians in Jackson & Washington have been cutting appropriations. Universities have to make up the difference & tuition is the about only place to do it quickly.

Unless they are different from the general demographic, students (and faculty) voted for those politicians. In fact, a lot of students (and faculty) probably voted for them because they promised to "cut the size of government."

I would say we're all getting precisely what we asked for. We just didn't know that's what we were demanding..."

Please, stop trying to push your NEA liberal adgenda. Stick to board topics.

Date: Jul 22, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Seeker
" Please, stop trying to push your NEA liberal adgenda. Stick to board topics."

This is a valid board topic. We all have agendas. The divide and conquer tactic won't work.

Date: Jul 22, 2004

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Regarding Email and Community

Date: Jul 22, 2004

RE: RE: RE: RE: Regarding Email and Community Supp

Date: Jul 22, 2004

RE: Regarding Email and Community Support

Date: Jul 22, 2004

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Regarding Email and Community Supp

Date: Jul 22, 2004

RE: Regarding Email and Community Support

Date: Jul 22, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by: Invictus
"There are are shipload of folks around here who have made a pretty decent living by hauling logs & running sawmills."

Let me rephrase that for you, Invictus: "A shipload of money has been made by folks hauling logs & running sawmills."

By the way, Invictus, isn't Mr. K. in the lumber business?

Date: Jul 22, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
"And please note my use of the pronoun "we." We are getting exactly what we voted for. Seeker, if you want to cut the size of government, then you're going to have to pay a lot more out of your own pocket. (snipped for brevity) "

Invictus, you rock. You rock so hard that, if you were willing and I still lived in Mississippi, I'd offer to help run the "Invictus for Governor" campaign! But, I'm sure you're too smart for that!

Date: Jul 22, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Seeker
" Please, stop trying to push your NEA liberal adgenda. Stick to board topics."

Ah, Seeker shows his true colors. "Share the Blame," my eye. More like "divide and conquer."

Date: Jul 22, 2004

In response to SEEKER'S thread.

1. This board was created to share views and opinions.

2. In order to intelligently share views and opinions in open debate you must be willing to listen to all sides before you reach a judgment.

3. Whenever a poster has shared a view or opinion that did not meet the majority of the board the board or the few verbose ones blast them as a troll or a divide an conqure type idiot.

4. If someone mispells a word TRUTH4USM childishly attacks them. Hum!

5. The poster THE ROCK asked the question earlier of SEEKER "How doth thou gauge public opinion from so far away?"

The answer is simple for SEEKER and that is he/she can do so the same way TRUTH4USM in Nashville and ROBERT CAMPBELL in South Carolina make comments about situations they have first hand knowledge of and how they make judgments about people they have never met.

For the most part SEEKER is correct about the tactics and approach of some of the issues he/she identified.

*Disclaimer: I do not care if you like my typing, punctuation or grammar.

Date: Jul 22, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by: HARD-LINE
" 3. Whenever a poster has shared a view or opinion that did not meet the majority of the board the board or the few verbose ones blast them as a troll or a divide an conqure type idiot.

I could care less if people agree with me or not. I was only defending my dear friend Invictus. If you don't like the heat, get out of this kitchen! People on this board have "attacked" me from the beginning (Seeker included). So, why do you think that I should not be able to defend myself and others if I choose to do so?

4. If someone mispells a word TRUTH4USM childishly attacks them. Hum!

Well, I prefer to see it as "helping them to understand the error of their ways." You say tom-ay-to and I say tom-ah-to...let's call this whole thing off!

5. The poster THE ROCK asked the question earlier of SEEKER "How doth thou gauge public opinion from so far away?" The answer is simple for SEEKER and that is he/she can do so the same way TRUTH4USM in Nashville and ROBERT CAMPBELL in South Carolina make comments about situations they have first hand knowledge of and how they make judgments about people they have never met.

And you've never made a judgment about someone you've never met? Hmmm....

Also, if you look at my posts, I don't believe I've ever made a claim to first-hand knowledge unless is was about my past experience at USM (when I did have first-hand knowledge). Unlike many posters, I've been up front from the beginning about the fact that I don't live in the 'burg anymore. I do still, however, have many friends and family members there who update me on the news.

For the most part SEEKER is correct about the tactics and approach of some of the issues he/she identified. *Disclaimer: I do not care if you like my typing, punctuation or grammar."

Yay! Seeker has finally found a friend, a compadre, a companion animal. I'm sure the two of you will be very happy together.

Date: Jul 22, 2004

Come on and lighten up! It seems to me there's a whole lot of attacking going on in that last post of HARD-LINE. Everyone has a right to an opinion. Perhaps the Varsity Voice will have a "voice" more to your liking. When people try to engage you in a discussion, all we hear is "you're doing it wrong", "Shelby is right", or "it's the faculty's fault". Chill. We know to follow the money, and I promise I'll refrain from the Itoldyousos when the Day of Reckoning arrives.

Still the man, any questions?