Lowering credit hours for graduation - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Jul 15, 2004

Lowering credit hours for graduation

Date: Jul 16, 2004

Same reason the semesters are so god-awful long in Mississippi as compared with other states - the feeling is that if you do more, spend more time in class, then you obviously learn more - not!

Date: Jul 16, 2004

There's a real push at my university to hit the 120 mark for all undergraduate degrees. Since we're raising tuition almost annually, the politicos can claim a degree still won't cost more because students can graduate in fewer semesters.

OE

Date: Jul 16, 2004

How will this impact the community college transfers who have been allowed to transfer in 64 hours? If they are allowed to do that, then the majority of their 124 hours will have been earned at the community college.

Is this why Southern Miss has been dragging its feet on an articulation agreement with the CCs?

Date: Jul 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Googler
"How will this impact the community college transfers who have been allowed to transfer in 64 hours? If they are allowed to do that, then the majority of their 124 hours will have been earned at the community college.
Is this why Southern Miss has been dragging its feet on an articulation agreement with the CCs?
"

Regardless of how many hours a CC transfer brings in, they are still going to take required course work (teacher ed, and other programs that have national accreditation requirements) that may graduate beyond the 124 hrs. This will impact freshmen through seniors who will not take large number of elective course work (for example some programs have 12 hours of elective credit) and instead take less electives.

Date: Jul 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Googler
"How will this impact the community college transfers who have been allowed to transfer in 64 hours? If they are allowed to do that, then the majority of their 124 hours will have been earned at the community college.
Is this why Southern Miss has been dragging its feet on an articulation agreement with the CCs?
"

I suspect that USM will lower the ceiling for community college transfer hours to 62 hours. SACS does require that 25% of the credit applied to a degree be earned at the institution that awards the degree. So a student transferring to USM from any 4-year institution could conceivably graduate by with taking only 31 credit hours at USM.

The general consensus among community college people is that USM doesn't want an articulation agreement, because that way students could be "encouraged" to transfer after their freshman year instead of after completing the sophomore year.

I'm surprised that USM hasn't started rumbling about looking at the Franklin University online model, where the university transcripts upper division credit for community college classes beyond the associate degree limit of 64 hours.

Date: Jul 16, 2004

part of the issue with the articulation agreement is our new general education core. it is much more restrictive than the cores at Ole Miss and MSU. that was USM's intent--they wanted students to have more of a common core experience. what it means for the community colleges is that less of the courses they teach will be accepted here, particularly compared to our sister institutions. and SLT was sold on the idea that the community colleges shouldn't be dictating our core. sounds great, but when 50% of community college graduates in MS come to USM it hurts enrollment big time. Bucky Wesley, for head of admissions (?) said that when the new core was proposed. but what the hey, why listen to him?

Date: Jul 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"Bucky Wesley said that when the new core was proposed. but what the hey, why listen to him? "

And he up and left for greener pastures at MUW--another sane, experienced voice gone with the wind.

Date: Jul 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"sounds great, but when 50% of community college graduates in MS come to USM it hurts enrollment big time."

USM's reluctance -- for whatever reason -- to work out an articulation agreement that helps and doesn't hinder community college transfers is one reason that MGCCC negotiated an articulation agreement with South Alabama. And Carey. And Tulane.

By being inflexible about it's "enhanced" core curriculum, USM has shot itself in the foot with its #1 feeder institution. By making it more difficult for students to transfer to the university, USM is hampering, not helping, economic development on the Coast.

You can say all you want about the "advantages" of a common core. But the real reason for refusing to work with community colleges on the articulation agreement is that USM administrators hope to lure community college students to the university earlier than the end of their 2nd year.

Date: Jul 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
". . . 50% of community college graduates in MS come to USM . . . "

That percentage is higher than the other seven IHL institutions combined.

Since Southern Miss historically has depended so heavily on CC transfers, it has been in the university's best interest to work with the CCs. However, to a certain extent, articulation agreements are unfair to Southern Miss students who enter as freshmen. Those "native freshmen" are the ones with whom the university stands a better chance to cultivate as a future alumni/donor base. The CC students for the most part see Southern Miss as a means to an end and therefore develop very little, if any, institutional loyalty.

Date: Jul 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Googler
"
Those "native freshmen" are the ones with whom the university stands a better chance to cultivate as a future alumni/donor base. The CC students for the most part see Southern Miss as a means to an end and therefore develop very little, if any, institutional loyalty."

This is probably true. (I know of no data that supports or refutes it.) However, it raises the question of whether the university's mission is to educate people or cultivate its future donor base.

Date: Jul 16, 2004

since i've been at USM (20+ years) we've had difficulty getting students to come as freshmen (as opposed to jc transfers). and yes, they are as loyal to their jc as they are USM. Ole Miss and MSU work to get them there as freshmen--it does build loyalty. i don't know if changing our core curriculum is the way to get students to come here as freshmen rather than as jc transfers. better is to figure out why they would rather to go to jc than USM, and do something to change that.

Date: Jul 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"better is to figure out why they would rather to go to jc than USM, and do something to change that."

I think the following info taken from the colleges' websites may help answer your question. (I hope my "fancy formatting" works.) These costs are for full-time Mississippi residents living on campus & subscribing to a 5-day meal plan.

USM
JCJC
PRCC
MGCCC

Tuition & Fees
$1,937
$710
$801
$840

Room & Board
$1,960
$1,332
$1,080
$1,032

Total
$3,897
$2,042
$1,881
$1,872

Date: Jul 16, 2004

RE: RE: RE: RE: Lowering credit hours for graduati

Date: Jul 16, 2004

RE: RE: Lowering credit hours for graduation

Date: Jul 16, 2004

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Lowering credit hours for graduati

Date: Jul 16, 2004

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Lowering credit hours for

Date: Jul 16, 2004

RE: RE: RE: Lowering credit hours for graduation

Date: Jul 16, 2004

RE: RE: RE: RE: Lowering credit hours for graduati

Date: Jul 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: LeavingASAP
" I agree this is possible First Ant, but these are exceptions to the rule and very unlikely to occur. Something is very wrong with the university if many students can do well without college preparatory course in high school. There was a time when students could not hope to accomplish anything at university without good preparation in high school. Now the ones who don't go to college seem to be the exceptions. "

You are right, Leaving ASAP, something is indeed wrong with a university if a large number of its students can do well without college preparatory courses in high school. But when a student can graduate from USM with a 3.0 GPA and still be in the bottom half of the class, something is dreadfully wrong there too. A is good, B is bad, I suppose.

Date: Jul 16, 2004

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Lowering credit hours for

Date: Jul 16, 2004

RE: Lowering credit hours for graduation

Date: Jul 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: dave
"As much as I am loyal to USM, I think the community colleges have a lot to offer!"

I know the primary focus of this particular digression from the original thread is community college transfers to USM, but I think everyone should remember that the CCs also award A.A.S. degrees. Before you snicker at 2-year technical degrees, consider how many of the nursing & tech staff at FGH or Wesley are community college graduates. Eventually a fair number of them will show up at USM seeking that baccalaureate degree.

The purpose of the articulation agreement isn't just to guarantee transfer of credit. Articulation agreements help define a relationship between institutions.

Date: Jul 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
". . . community college graduates . . ."

Invictus,

I recall when the community colleges in Mississippi were all called junior colleges (e.g., Jones Junior College, Pearl River Junior College, Southwest Junior College, Copiah-Lincoln Junior College, etc.) What was the rationalle for the name change? Did all of them retain the name junior college?

Date: Jul 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Curious II
" Invictus, I recall when the community colleges in Mississippi were all called junior colleges (e.g., Jones Junior College, Pearl River Junior College, Southwest Junior College, Copiah-Lincoln Junior College, etc.) What was the rationalle for the name change? Did all of them retain the name junior college?"

My second question meant to ask if any (not all) of them retained the name junior college.

Date: Jul 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Curious II
"My second question meant to ask if any (not all) of them retained the name junior college. "

I believe that JCJC is now the only junior college in the state. I suspect that they didn't want to become JCCC--doesn't have the same effect.

Date: Jul 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: AmLitChick
"I believe that JCJC is now the only junior college in the state. I suspect that they didn't want to become JCCC--doesn't have the same effect."

Well thanks for this info, AmLitChick. So Jones Junior College was the one holdout. Good for them. I wonder what the national trend is in this regard. I, personally, prefer the term junior college, but if the two-year schools across the nation were changing their names, I can see why Mississipi would prefer to change too.

Date: Jul 17, 2004

1) For English 101 and 102 you get a real professor with a Ph.D. in English, not a graduate assistant!

...lucky you! My english instructors all had M.A. degrees.

Date: Jul 17, 2004

at Ann Harbor, tuition is going up but everything else is going down:

http://www.mlive.com/news/aanews/index.ssf?/base/news-9/1089989062159720.xml

from article:

"U-M Provost and Executive Vice President Paul Courant on Thursday reiterated many of the almost $20 million in planned spending cuts that he first made public in May, including a cut of 122 jobs. Of the 122, 40 will be faculty jobs eliminated through attrition. The remainder of the cuts will include some layoffs, but Courant didn't specify how many or when they would take place."

"Vice President for Student Affairs E. Royster Harper said the budget sets aside money for an annual Native American celebration, and coordinators for the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community and multi-ethnic student affairs program, among other things. Money was also set aside for immediate and long-term repairs and programs at the Trotter Multicultural Center, which students had said the university was neglecting."

...glad to see the Multicultural Center didn't lose its funding. Think the profs. could've kept their jobs with the money set aside for these programs?

BTW, wasn't USM suppose to have a multicultural center?

Date: Jul 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: lumpy oatmeal
"1) For English 101 and 102 you get a real professor with a Ph.D. in English, not a graduate assistant! ...lucky you! My english instructors all had M.A. degrees."

I have to take issue with this remark. A PhD is a research degree. PhD's are experts in certain fields, and they bring to those fields a greater depth of knowledge and experience than someone with an MA. However, English 101, 102 and the survey literature courses are not the sorts of courses which necessarily require an instructor with a PhD. I have been a TA and an adjunct (elsewhere). I can tell you that adjuncts, who do not have to do committee work or publish, can bring a great depth of energy and dedication to their teaching. The letters after someone's name do not guarantee good teaching skills.