Preview Numbers 7/15 - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Jul 19, 2004

RE: RE: RE: Preview Numbers 7/15

Date: Jul 19, 2004

This all reminds me of my freshman year (when I rode to school on a dinosaur.) I had a scholarship based on my rather brilliant SAT scores. My roommate was a plodder. However, she plodded herself to the library night after night when I did not, and in the end her grades were as good or better than Miss Brilliant's. Lots of things tests just don't measure.

Date: Jul 19, 2004

Study after study have shown that standardized tests (ACT, SAT, GRE, etc.) correspond very little with grades received during the freshman year and not at all after that first year. Which, of course, logically begs the question: what do those tests really measure? More often than not they reflect one's economic/social class much more than intellectual ability - and any school will now run afoul of the law if they rely solely or too heavily on standardized test scores as an admission criteria.

Date: Jul 19, 2004

there was a recent story in the chronicle where the author had conducted a number of analyses showing that act and sat are correlated more with socio-economic background than any other factor.

Date: Jul 19, 2004

I would venture to guess that the exceptions to that rule are people like me. Working class family, no money, but books and music in the house, newspapers, watched documentaries as a family, children read to and taken to the library, etc. Grandparents had eighth-grade certificates (but you should see their books, way beyond what our high schoolers use) but never stopped reading and learning.

Date: Jul 19, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: LVN and Stinky Cheese Man

Poor & Smart trumps Wealthy & Dumb any day. Concerns about entitlement and potential arise when dealing with the other two quadrants. Adding a third dimension of motivation makes it more complicated but it may be the most important determining factor of all. Like most of us, I've taught all 8 types (as casually and narrowly defined here) and intellectually challenged and unmotivated, whether wealthy or poor, is not a recipe for success. I'm not sure any of us have the all the right data to be debating this on the board but I think admitting students in these latter two categories is the real concern. Forgive the derogatory labeling.

Date: Jul 19, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Curious II
"I'd be interested in knowing the relationship between ACT scores and the grades (A,B,C,D,F) in the required core courses (English, Mathematics, etc.) With that kind of analysis, it wouldn't matter what major (easy, hard) the student entered, would it? "

I recently saw a report of average GPA for CoST departments. I can only remember a few, but I do recall the GPA for Math was 1.8 and the lowest in CoST.

Date: Jul 19, 2004

I recall a study at another university with which I was affiliated. That study determined that "rank in high school class" was the best predictor of success during the Freshmen year in college. Size of the high school did not matter, nor did the prestige of the high school. Rank in class trumped all of those characteristics. I wonder if anybody at USM has looked at this dimenion of college admissions.

Date: Jul 19, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Newgirl
"C= 2.0 = average."

Correct! Page 83 of the 2004-2005 Undergraduate BULLetin states that:

A — indicates excellent work and carries 4 quality points per semester hour.

B — indicates good work and carries 3 quality points per semester hour.

C — indicates average work and carries 2 quality points per semester hour.

D — indicates inferior work and carries 1 quality point per semester hour.

Now, if "C indicates average work," then the average GPA ought to be in the "C" range. In a normal grade distribution, "C" should be the modal class.

It's often argued that some classes (e.g., P.E. activities courses) will have a distribution skewed to the "A" group. It is equally valid to counterargue that those classes ought to be graded on a pass-fail basis...

Date: Jul 19, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
"

Correct! Page 83 of the 2004-2005 Undergraduate BULLetin states that:

A — indicates excellent work and carries 4 quality points per semester hour.
B — indicates good work and carries 3 quality points per semester hour.
C — indicates average work and carries 2 quality points per semester hour.
D — indicates inferior work and carries 1 quality point per semester hour.

Now, if "C indicates average work," then the average GPA ought to be in the "C" range. In a normal grade distribution, "C" should be the modal class.

It's often argued that some classes (e.g., P.E. activities courses) will have a distribution skewed to the "A" group. It is equally valid to counterargue that those classes ought to be graded on a pass-fail basis..."

Invictus, didn't you know that at USM all of the women are strong, all of the men are good looking and all of the students are above average?

Date: Jul 19, 2004

: RE: Preview Numbers 7/15

Date: Jul 19, 2004

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Preview Numbers 7/15

Date: Jul 19, 2004

Invictus:

Here are the GPAs for the last 3 soph-level courses I taught:

2.152, 2.229 and 2.150. My last jr./sr.-level section went 2.450.

Date: Jul 19, 2004

RE: : RE: Preview Numbers 7/15

Date: Jul 19, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Malapropism
"
Invictus, it is clearly too early to be choosing favorites for next week and I'm sure Miss Information wouldn't be pleased with me. However, the competition is going to be tough this week if this name is any indication!
Mal"

I've already put 4 names on my short list for today alone. And yeah, HSHC is one of them.

Date: Jul 19, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
"

I've already put 4 names on my short list for today alone. And yeah, HSHC is one of them. "

Hey, don't I get "an assist" for feeding and setting up Hardy St Home Companion?

Date: Jul 19, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Otherside
" Hey, don't I get "an assist" for feeding and setting up Hardy St Home Companion? "

The set-up came long before you my friend, but nonetheless you deserve credit for an assist!

Date: Jul 19, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Polyonymous
"The set-up came long before you my friend, but nonetheless you deserve credit for an assist!"

Twice, in fact.

Date: Jul 20, 2004

RE: RE: Preview Numbers 7/15

Date: Jul 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: foot soldier
" tomcat, are you tenured? I know lots of assistant profs. who would be in big trouble with averages like that."

footsoldier,

Do view tomcat's averages too high or too low for sophomore level courses?

Date: Jul 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Curious II
"
footsoldier,
Do view tomcat's averages too high or too low for sophomore level courses?"

I think tomcat should give the students whatever grades he or she thinks they deserve. But these days I think "Bs" actually mean average and "Cs" mean less than average, in spite of what the catalog says. I AM not advocating this however (and I have a reputation as a tough grader). I just wish I had a dollar for every time I've had to explain to a student that a "B" is a good grade.

Date: Jul 20, 2004

tomcat is in the only college that seems to be holding the line on grade inflation (at least from the recent report on grades at USM --- I think it was the AAUP report). tomcat is fairly typical of the college tomcat works in. tomcat is tenured.

Date: Jul 20, 2004

tomcat's gpa's actually mean that the average student in his soph-level classes finishes with about a 72 average (doesn't that sound about right?).

Date: Jul 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: tomcat
"Invictus:
Here are the GPAs for the last 3 soph-level courses I taught:
2.152, 2.229 and 2.150. My last jr./sr.-level section went 2.450.
"

I think it can be safely stated that "tomcat" is "normal." Glad to see there's still a bit of the "normal college" at USM

Seriously, looking back on my daze as a student, it's not the "easy" profs I remember. It's the ones that made me work. I've a few C's on my transcript that represented harder work than a lot of the A's...

Date: Jul 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
" I think it can be safely stated that "tomcat" is "normal." Glad to see there's still a bit of the "normal college" at USM Seriously, looking back on my daze as a student, it's not the "easy" profs I remember. It's the ones that made me work. I've a few C's on my transcript that represented harder work than a lot of the A's..."

Thanks, Invictus. I must say that tomcat's new dean is subtly and sometimes not-so-subtly promtping us to relax grading standards. It's disconcerting to say the least.

Date: Jul 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: tomcat
"tomcat is in the only college that seems to be holding the line on grade inflation (at least from the recent report on grades at USM --- I think it was the AAUP report). tomcat is fairly typical of the college tomcat works in. tomcat is tenured."

Good for you and your college, tomcat, for holding the line on grades. Just like in the good old days when we talked about a "gentleman's C." This seems to be a good place to bring up a rather controversial issue, but one which I believe explains a large part of grade inflation. It has to do with these abominable "teaching evaluation" forms (like the Purdue). I believe they have, in many instances, led to a "trade off" attitude: "I'll rate you high on the Purdue, you rate me high on the grade sheet." As one of my colleagues used to say, an "unwritten but commonly understood agreement between faculty and student." This seems to pertain even if the teaching evaluation results are not provided to the instructor until after the grades have been turned in to the Registrar's Office. My solution: Evaluate learning rather than teaching. That's what really counts anyway - not whether a faculty member can do a soft shoe shuffle like in the movie Chicago, and raise those Purdue scores by razzamatazz, tapdancing, and joke telling, treating students like they're puppets on a string to be maniuplated. I'm sure First Ant has unleashed a swarm of angry fire ants with this posting.

Date: Jul 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: foot soldier
"

... But these days I think "Bs" actually mean average and "Cs" mean less than average, in spite of what the catalog says. I AM not advocating this however (and I have a reputation as a tough grader). ..."

I'm glad foot soldier is not advocating this because that IS the definition of grade inflation. "B" can be considered average in graduate school, because of the filtering that has occurred (if any is occurring).
But "B" is supposed to be above average for undergraduates.

Date: Jul 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Newgirl
" I'm glad foot soldier is not advocating this because that IS the definition of grade inflation. "B" can be considered average in graduate school, because of the filtering that has occurred (if any is occurring). But "B" is supposed to be above average for undergraduates. "

A B is just getting by in graduate school - in most departments a graduate student will be (or is supposed to be) placed on academic probation if their overall gpa falls below a 3.0 (B). You can not earn a graduate degree at USM with less than a 3.0 overall gpa.

Date: Jul 20, 2004

i agree. and a "c" is failing in graduate school.

Date: Jul 21, 2004

the Miller Analogy Test is a much better predictor of grad student perfomance. Just thought I'd throw that in, since nobody mentioned it - the ATS has cash cows (act, gre, etc.), and they will remain the most popular/widely used admissions tests until someone monopoly-busts the ATS. Period.