There were three students interested in my area of study, two were freshmen and they both needed 099 classes.

What does this say about the quality of students we are admitting? Just my thoughts......

Here is a very nice statement by Dr. David Potter taken from the IHL website. His statement seems to be relevant to this thread:

"First, higher education depends on other education enterprises—elementary and secondary schools and community colleges. Universities inherit their products. Schools and community colleges prepare students who enter our system. If they fail, we are likely to fail, unable to overcome the legacy of under-preparation."

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Originally posted by: Spectator at the 50-yard line
"Perhaps there is a need for such a college in MS. Perhaps MS Southern will be that school. But as long as we win in football, does it really matter? I believe that it does matter. But the choice is not mine to make."

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First, a petty gripe: USM hasn't been "MS Southern" for close to 40 years! Is your last name perchance Klumb?

Second, there is a need for such a college in MS. In fact, there are already 15 of them. They cost a lot less than universities, both for students and for the state. They are called community colleges.

As a taxpayer, I think it is patently absurd that universities offer 099 sections at all. If the student cannot do college-level work, the student should go to a community college, no matter what the president's enrollment goal happens to be.

Every time a university admits a student who fails to meet admissions criteria, that university is ripping off the taxpayers of the state. So why do they do it? Because they can get state reimbursement money for the headcount, that's why.

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Originally posted by: Invictus
" First, a petty gripe: USM hasn't been "MS Southern" for close to 40 years! Is your last name perchance Klumb? Second, there is a need for such a college in MS. In fact, there are already 15 of them. They cost a lot less than universities, both for students and for the state. They are called community colleges. As a taxpayer, I think it is patently absurd that universities offer 099 sections at all. If the student cannot do college-level work, the student should go to a community college, no matter what the president's enrollment goal happens to be. Every time a university admits a student who fails to meet admissions criteria, that university is ripping off the taxpayers of the state. So why do they do it? Because they can get state reimbursement money for the headcount, that's why."

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I agree with you, Invictus, on each and every count. Mississippi has a superb community college system. Many successful Mississippians are products of that system. They are a great place for a high school graduate to spend the next two years, whether for geographical reasons or because the student is not yet prepared to fully participate, academically or otherwise, at a four-year school. I also concur that it is patently absurd that four-year colleges in Mississippi offer 099 classes - no matter what the president's enrollment goals happen to be. To that I would add: No 099 courses for athletes or non-athletes. I would also go a little further than did your posting: Specifically, A student who enters one of Mississippi's community colleges would be well advised to remain there the full two-years (i.e., until graduation) before moving on to a four-year college. In my opion, too many community college students remain there only one year and then transfer. Invictus, my posting may not have been the most articulate document ever written, but I am not Klumb. A final comment: I always thought the name Southern Miss was rather neat! That name projects less of a "regional" or "bi-directional" quality than the current name projects. I never understood why the name was changed in the first place. Even national sportscasters still recognize that Southern Miss has a good ring to it, and that is what some of them still call it.

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Originally posted by: Spectator at the 50-yard line
"I meant to say Mississippi Southern - not Southern Miss. Like Birmingham Southern, and some others. Nice ring to it. Less "regional" sounding. Just my opinion."

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I didn't quite mean to sound so snippy about it. But "Mississippi Southern" is used specifically by alumni of UM & MSU as a put-down. It's "Mississippi Southern COLLEGE" ... not a university at all.

It's just a sore point with me. Sorry.

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Originally posted by: Invictus
" I didn't quite mean to sound so snippy about it. But "Mississippi Southern" is used specifically by alumni of UM & MSU as a put-down. It's "Mississippi Southern COLLEGE" ... not a university at all. It's just a sore point with me. Sorry."

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Thanks for the follow-up post, Invictus. I had no idea that the alumni of Mississippi State and Ole Miss ever used the term Mississippi Southern as a "put down."  I grew up in Mississippi, and I never heard the term used in an offensive or disrespectful manner. Whenever I heard anyone use the term Mississippi Southern, it was always in a positive manner. My high school friends, most of whom went to Ole Miss or Millsaps, certainly never spoke of Mississippi Southern in a "put down" manner. Perhaps one reason I like the name is because back in high school, and while attending another instate college, I never associated the name with anything negative.

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Originally posted by: Wondering
"Gee, where are all the naysayers after today's preview.  Seems I remember someone posting last week that this preview was going to be way down.  I'm sure ya'll will find something else to gripe about. "

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Wondering,

In case you haven't heard - size doesn't count. It isn't difficult to recruit hoards of students who don't meet minimum admissions standards. Recruiting students who meet or exceed those standards is a bit more difficult.

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Originally posted by: Wondering
"OK, first you gripe about numbers being down and when it is reported they are not, you say the quality is down.  Current enrollment in 099 classes do not support that theory. "

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Wondering, I spoke with the people who conducted preview at one of the colleges yesterday.  They told me they were putting almost everyone they saw in 099 classes.

while i think the discussion about preview numbers and the number of 099 sections is interesting, i find no one posting has enough credibility to convince me anything unusual is going on.  we have very selective accounts from people who have limited access to numbers.  my limited experience this year indicates things are not a lot different.  i have heard comments about the lowering quality of students for over 20 years.  and remember, ACT scores are limited predictors of a student's first year GPA and less limited in future years. 

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Originally posted by: not biiter
"It is odd to me that you guys complaing about numbers being down, but when something is done to get numbers up, the same people start whining about something else that is being done to get those numbers up. I also find it sad that some of you are saying we should not be educating 099 people. You criticize the admission standards, but it looks like to me that if people are being put in 099 classes, then the standards are being met. Perhaps our standards are low, but this is not Harvard....this is USM. It is shocking that you guys have the audacity to tell students to go elsewhere to get educated. "

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not bitter,

Read my lips. I never complained about the numbers being down. I said that USM is already too big for its resources, and that its enrollment should be capped. I also pointed out that Mississippi has a superb community college system. Those schools are really great places for those who need two years of personal instruction prior to entering a four-year college. I don't "tell" students to go elsewhere, but I do identify some of their options. That is what good advising is all about. It is not about proselytizing unsuspecting students simply because somebody upstairs wants the questionable distinction of having the "largest" school in the state. As I said: SIZE DOESN'T COUNT. The sooner USM understands that, the better off it will be.

Excellent point -- it's not USM's job to re-educate people who have already graduated from high school.  However, and in another state, I have had to teach parts of speech to college freshmen.  I used to hope for a handful of kids from Catholic school.  They knew their grammar -- you just could not get them to write in the first person.

I thought that 099-type classes were for students who were good in one subject area but weak in another, e.g. the math whiz who still has trouble with writing and vice versa.  Is this no longer the case?

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Originally posted by: Wondering
"It is all based on their ACT sub scores, as poor as a predictor as it can be.  By the way, this is an IHL rule for all schools."

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But, as LVN says, you would assume that 099 classes would be for those kids with a composite ACT of 25, for example, but a math subscore of 15.  In other words, they would meet the criteria for admissions, yet just need help in that one area. 

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Originally posted by: LeavingASAP
". . . the students with the lowest ACTs were entering the programs with the worst grade inflation problems. "

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Do you recall which colleges or departments graded the highest and which graded the lowest? Or perhaps that information was "classified."

this is probably irrelevant, but i'll add it nonetheless.  whenever i hear people talk about grade inflation (usm or elsewhere) there is a certain assumption that they know what an appropriate (read--uninflated) gpa is.  if we were to take efforts at usm to solve "the problem" then what gpa do we set to know that the problem has been solved and that our efforts have been fruitful.  i've asked any number of people (including frank glamser) here over the years and they have little if any answers.  should it be a 2.5? a 2.25? a 2.0?  most that attempt an answer link it to act scores, but in my previous post i pointed out that act scores don't predict gpa well.  so i guess i weary about discussion of grade inflation without some specification of the appropriate gpa seniors should graduate with.