WDAM's Top of the Class - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Jul 8, 2006

WDAM's Top of the Class

Date: Jul 8, 2006

It would be interesting to see data like this for students in the top 10% or even 25% of their class. That might be more telling. It would also be interesting to see a breakout by gender.

Date: Jul 8, 2006

Its a sad commentary on Mississippi education when the top students choose to got to a junior college (or USM).

Date: Jul 8, 2006

Rod Sterling wrote:

Its a sad commentary on Mississippi education when the top students choose to got to a junior college (or USM).

That is absolutely correct.

Date: Jul 8, 2006

i wouldn't necessarily call them all the top students--they are the valedictorian and salutatorian of their high school. if they go to one of the larger and better high schools, they will probably be pretty good. if they go to a more rural high school, who knows. and if you've never had kids go through high school here, you have no idea about how political the decision about 1st or 2nd in class can be. you can be valedictorian without ever taking an AP course, for example. some take a bunch of crib courses their senior to not have to work hard and protect their GPA. and i'm not surprised about some not being in honors college. there is a minimum ACT score necessary to be in the honors college--there is no necessary correlation between class rank and ACT. in my children's experience at HHS, often those ranked lower in the class (say 3-10) have higher ACT scores than those ranked 1st or second.

Date: Jul 8, 2006

It is simple economics--my son got a full 2 year scholarship to MGCCC with his 28 act score. No other place offered a full ride.

Date: Jul 8, 2006

My oldest received a 33 on her ACT, was a National Merit Finalist, and could basically pick her school. She chose USM (late 90's) for a number of reasons. The main reason was that USM had a Kicka$$ Liberal Arts program where she studied under the best. Her B.A. from USM has served her well. Major credits go to the History and English Depts. She was in the Honors College, and it was top-notch. She was awarded 28 credits due to AP scores, and USM figured it out wisely. She participated in the International program and spend a semester in a pretty exotic place living with 3 other women from 3 different countries. USM itself was a paradise back in those days. I am proud of her accomplishments just as much as I am proud of the university that provided her the means to shine. I yearn for the return of that university.

Date: Jul 8, 2006

stinky cheese man wrote:

i wouldn't necessarily call them all the top students--they are the valedictorian and salutatorian of their high school. . . .

Well, there you go again.

I’m sure you are correct when you suggest that these 98 students are not really “all the top” students from area schools. In fact, I doubt that it is possible to order all the students in our area from worst to best. And I don’t doubt your assessment that the brightest students in a class often fail to achieve due recognition.

But what relevance does your post have to the lead post? Are you suggesting that the original poster is overstating his or her case? Are you aware of a large contingent of students ranking from 3-10 in their respective classes on its way to USM to major in Plastics? Are you contending that USM is getting its fair share of the better students? What are you saying, oh Cheese Man?

Date: Jul 8, 2006

i'm not sure i understand the original poster's point, unless it's the obvious one about polymer science. and i'm not sure what your point is, wizard. someone who takes the time to compile information from the "top of the class" show has too much time on their hands.

Date: Jul 8, 2006

Wiz,

One of the recurring themes on threads like this one is that posters who are also parents of current/former USM students MUST take exception to suggestions that USM isn't/wasn't a top-notch university, at least in some areas, so that their decisions are defended. While it is true that USM may have been "underrated" in certain areas (e.g., English), it is also true that as a whole USM has pretty much been a Third Tier institution at best.

Parents and students make choices regarding education: Should I attend University X, which may or may not have a strong and consistent national reputation in my chosen area of study, at my own expense, or should I attend USM on the cheap and then go to a grad school with a national reputation? The choice is not an easy one. Some of the rah-rah-USM-old-days stuff you'll see here is simply a defense of the decision to have a child attend a university that has quickly crumbled into obscurity.

There are inevitable references to the glorious Honors College at USM, the liberal ghetto that it is, because it represents something "extra" that participants can get in addition to a USM sheepskin. From my experience, many individuals (not all) treat the Honors College as a liberal elitist club for those who can score high enough on the ACT or SAT but who have made a decision to attend school (again) on the cheap or who don't possess the diligence to cut it at a university that will truly challenge them. You can reference stinky cheese man's statement about minimum ACT scores to get a taste of the "exclusivity" sold by proponents of the Honors College.

Unfortunately for USM, it does not have the real resources to operate a true Honors College, with honors courses in every college/discipline and with a broad range of opinions and viewpoints represented through the Honors College Corps of Instruction. As is, the better points of the Honors College are study abroad programs where kids get out of Hattiesburg and the toxic environment here and escape to a place where they can meet cool people and see cool things.

However, the USM student body is rapidly transitioning into a dichotomous group -- students who cannot afford to go elsewhere and students whose achievements cannot earn them admittance elsewhere. I expect to see the Honors College shrivel and die very soon, but I also expect many of those WDAM Best of Class students who claimed a Junior College as their destination to choose to attend USM, since I believe that most area students who are not children of USM Faculty or Hattiesburg Physicians are so unsophisticated that they view college degrees as commodities.

As to scm's statements about Valedictorians/Salutatorians and the quality of education that can be had at a rural high school, I would offer a few words of caution. Students who play the Valedictorian/Salutatorian game successfully aren't all that different than those who attend USM so that they can have a cheap, enjoyable, and relatively unchallenging undergraduate experience before attending a "good" graduate program.

I would also like to relate a story about a group of six students from a rural high school (one that didn't even offer AP courses). All six attended a Tier Two university, and five of the six completely clepped freshman comp not on the basis of AP credit (remember that they had no AP courses to take), but on the basis of a written, timed, blind-assigned essay. I would say that caution should be used when lauding the merits of Hattiesburg High or other local schools over the rural schools that make up the lion's share of high schools in our state.

Regardless, some of the typical responses have already been delivered by some of the usual suspects.

Date: Jul 8, 2006

stinky cheese man wrote:

someone who takes the time to compile information from the "top of the class" show has too much time on their hands.

You know, I can understand why the original post would be of little interest to most folks not involved in higher education. I can understand why it would be of very limited interest to anyone outside Mississippi. But I can't fathom why these issues would be of so little import to a USM faculty member.

Does it not bother you that USM fails to attract more of these (local) students? What do you make of the fact that so many of these students choose to attend a community college before entering USM?

Even if your answers are "no" and "nothing", respectively, I won't think you're an evil person. But it is a bit rude to characterize the original poster as some sort of idler because their post, to which you did respond, now fails to interest you.

Thanks to info for the original post.

Date: Jul 8, 2006

i find these questions old and redundant. you don't even begin to address "just coasting"'s comment about economics. i have been here well over 20 years and these questions have been asked and discussed for years--until recently we didn't have the technology to post them on a discussion board.

to answer your questions (and i did to a degree in my original post)--do i mind these students don't choose USM? maybe--depends on what high school they went to and what courses they took. note my comment about AP courses. i know one personally and USM didn't have something that that student wanted. at the same time it has been known for a long time that USM doesn't recruit locally--my children received more literature from UM and MSU than USM. i've heard other faculty say the same. this is old news.

what do i think about them attending junior colleges? it puzzles me, but as "just coasting" said, it's often economics.

i suspect that your overall comment is--don't i think the student body at USM is getting worse? i have no idea--as most "third world" public universities like USM (see a recent Chronicle of Higher Education article about the third world reference) we get some really bright ones, a large number of average ones, and then some that are borderline. that's been the way since i came, and it will be the same way well after i croak. i simply teach the ones that appear in my classes. i don't find myself dwelling on whether our students are getting worse than before.

Date: Jul 8, 2006

Students choose to go to Community Colleges because they view education as a commodity that can be acquired anywhere it is convenient. Conversely, there are parents who will pay a premium, which often straps them financially, to send their children to private universities that are far worse than USM. As one who has taught in many environments, I think that the focus is too much on the institution and too little on the course work the students’ takes. A student who attends USM and takes a path that has several math courses along with courses that emphasize writing will be much better educated than one who goes to a prestigious institution and picks a mush major.

Date: Jul 8, 2006

stinky cheese man wrote:

i find these questions old and redundant. . . . i simply teach the ones that appear in my classes. i don't find myself dwelling on whether our students are getting worse than before.

Amen!

Date: Jul 8, 2006

Cossack wrote:

. . . A student who attends USM and takes a path that has several math courses along with courses that emphasize writing will be much better educated than one who goes to a prestigious institution and picks a mush major.

What's an example of a "mush major?"

Date: Jul 8, 2006

tdl--i didn't see your post, but it's confusing enough i won't try to respond much. my comment about the ACT score for honors college is a statement of fact. but honors colleges will, by definition i think, be exclusive. as to its liberal nature--let others be the judge.

i will defend my statement about rural high schools. in general, not withstanding your counterexample, the smaller rural high schools will not produce students who will do as well as those who attend high schools having AP courses. there are obviously exceptions to all generalizations.

Date: Jul 9, 2006

What's an example of a "mush major?

Date: Jul 9, 2006

RE: WDAM's Top of the Class

Date: Jul 9, 2006

You just got a major chuckle out of me!

Date: Jul 9, 2006

With Joker on my mind, I posted as Joker. That last comment was from moi. Sorry, for the nommishap.

Date: Jul 9, 2006

Cossack wrote:

Students choose to go to Community Colleges because they view education as a commodity that can be acquired anywhere it is convenient. . . .

Cossack,

Thanks for answering my question as to why so many local students choose to attend a community college rather than enrolling in a 4-year college or a university. I believe your observation is accurate and that these students are not particularly discerning when deciding their educational path.

Just Coasting, I think the name you've chosen reflects the attitude of some of these students, and financial considerations are not always the decisive factor.

However, I have my own theory, for what it's worth. Many 18 year-old Mississippians are not prepared to leave home. They aren't ready to spend extended periods of time away from Mom, Dad, and the comforts of familiarity. The prospect of leaving their town for the metropolis of Hattiesburg is a daunting one. Many have ambitions far below what one would expect given the capabilities these students demonstrate. Please understand that I am not attempting to pass judgment on these young folks, or their parents, but I believe what I am describing is a real phenomenon which plays a major role in the decisions these student make.

And Emma, you have every right to be proud of your daughter, and I believe you when you describe her experience at USM as a great one. But do you ever wonder what she missed out on in not attending a college or university where she would have been just another (very) bright student?

Finally, I should acknowledge that this issue has been discussed before, and I make no claims of originality.

Date: Jul 10, 2006

My son did get some offers from other schools, but not USM. The local community college offered 100% and he was in their honors program. As a USM employee and single parent, I could not afford, without loans, to send him some place where I would have to pay several thousand dollars in tuition and housing. I was hoping to have him graduate unburdened by loans (as I was able to do a million years ago). He may end up at what is left of the gulf coast program, because I still prefer to avoid loans. He is quite bright and a good student, but not as motivated as Emma's daughter. He'll do well in what ever he decides to do...if he would decide.

Date: Jul 10, 2006

Just Coasting,

In your situation using the junior college makes good sense. However, using the coast campus for a young student's last two years may not. Your objective of avoiding loans should not be the primary objective in making senior college plans. Much of education takes place outside the classroom in discussions with faculty and students and exposure to campus events such as plays and concerts. Under current conditions on the coast, not much is happening outside the classroom. A young person would be much better served on the Hattiesburg campus. You also might check out South Alabama, Mississippi State, and Ole Miss. Your son will have one shot at this. A bit of debt is not a death sentence. We buy houses, don't we?

Date: Jul 10, 2006

just coasting wrote:

My son did get some offers from other schools, but not USM. The local community college offered 100% and he was in their honors program. As a USM employee and single parent, I could not afford, without loans, to send him some place where I would have to pay several thousand dollars in tuition and housing. I was hoping to have him graduate unburdened by loans (as I was able to do a million years ago). He may end up at what is left of the gulf coast program, because I still prefer to avoid loans. He is quite bright and a good student, but not as motivated as Emma's daughter. He'll do well in what ever he decides to do...if he would decide.

Just Coasting,

While I agree that MGCCC is undoubtedly a good idea for your son's first two years, I would recommend that you also check the University of South Alabama. Once upon a time (pre-Katrina), they offered waiver of out-of-state tuition to students from Jackson, Harrison, and Han**** counties.

Date: Jul 12, 2006

Oldtimer,

He's going to USA this month for orientation and has been instructed to group his classes to MWF or T-TH so he can continue to work part time. He'll commute for the fall and we'll see how things go for Spring. We (state employees) get raises this month--maybe all my obsessive financial worries are over!

Date: Jul 12, 2006

This is too much -- I just noticed that ActiveBoard's software has 'edited' the name of a Mississippi county in my previous post. Everyone in Waveland now lives in Han**** County, according to this 'overly-sensitive' software.

Date: Jul 12, 2006

Old timer,

Concerning Han**** County...I thought that looked a little "politically correct".

I appreicate your good thoughts about my son's education.

Date: Jul 12, 2006

oldtimer wrote:

This is too much -- I just noticed that ActiveBoard's software has 'edited' the name of a Mississippi county in my previous post. Everyone in Waveland now lives in Han**** County, according to this 'overly-sensitive' software.

oldtimer, I initially thought that you deliberately wrote it that way.