IHL to Meet on Coast 6 June? - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Jun 1, 2006

IHL to Meet on Coast 6 June?

Date: Jun 1, 2006

Coast Watcher wrote:

A message circulated among USM Gulf Coast faculty by Will Watson this evening announced that the IHL will meet on the Coast this upcoming Tuesday at 2:30, apparently on the MGCCC-Campus on DeBuys Road, the Jefferson Davis campus. The purpose of the meeting is to discuss the fate of USM on the Coast. Watson said he learned of this from a state legislator who had a letter inviting him/her to the meeting. Has anyone else heard of this?

No -- is this a public meeting? Seems to me that if so -- a bunch of people should go.

Date: Jun 2, 2006

There's no information about such a meeting on the IHL site as of Friday morning:

http://www.ihl.state.ms.us/

The next regularly scheduled IHL meeting is set for 6/14-15, a "board retreat" according to the schedule:

http://www.ihl.state.ms.us/board_schedule.asp

If the IHL sponsors a meeting next week, there has to be a public notice of an open meeting, even if the meeting goes immediately into executive session and then isn't open to the public:

http://mcfoi.org/handbook/open.html#sysnopsis

Date: Jun 2, 2006

No rumors regarding a meeting at MGCCC-JD on Tuesday. But General Doctor Foglesong will be at that site on Monday. Hmmm... Must dig around in these oyster shells some more...

Date: Jun 2, 2006

I asked Pat Joachim about the IHL meeting in question and she replied that she only found out about it yesterday PM herself, and although she understood it to be by invitation only had not received an invitation.

She also said that she would keep checking. It's Friday 2:57PM. Is there any sort of limit on how soon the IHL can have a meeting after it announces it is going to have one?

Date: Jun 2, 2006

[Round and round]

IHL Policies and Bylaws

301.0505 OPEN MEETINGS REQUIREMENTS It is the policy of the Board to conduct its meetings pursuant to the provisions of the Mississippi Open Meetings Act. Miss. Code Ann., §25-41-1, as amended. (BT Minutes, 5/90; 1/98)

------------------------

Mississippi Open Meetings Act.

§ 25-41-13. Notice of meetings.

(1) Any public body which holds its meetings at such times and places and by such procedures as are specifically prescribed by statute shall continue to do so and no additional notice of such meetings shall be required except that a notice of the place, date, hour and subject matter of any recess meeting, adjourned meeting, interim meeting or any called special meeting shall be posted within one (1) hour after such meeting is called in a prominent place available to examination and inspection by the general public in the building in which the public body normally meets. A copy of the notice shall be made a part of the minutes or other permanent official records of the public body.

(2) Any public body, other than a legislative committee, which does not have statutory provisions prescribing the times and places and the procedures by which its meetings are to be held shall, at its first regular or special meeting after July 1, 1990 spread upon its minutes the times and places and the procedures by which all of its meetings are to be held.

(3) During a regular or special session of the Mississippi Legislature, notice of meetings of all committees, other than conference committees, shall be given by announcement on the loudspeaker during sessions of the House of Representatives or Senate or by posting on a bulletin board provided for that purpose by each body.

(4) When not in session, the meeting times and places of all committees shall be kept by the Clerk of the House of Representatives as to House committees and by the Secretary of the Senate as to Senate committees, and shall be available at all times during regular working hours to the public and news media.

SOURCES: Laws, 1975, ch. 481, § 7; 1990, ch. 541, § 2, eff from and after July 1, 1990.

Date: Jun 5, 2006

Below is a link to the IHL's press release about the non-meeting of the IHL on the Coast tomorrow. It's not "really" a meeting of the IHL since "only" Commisioner Meredith and "a few" board members will be present. Also invited are Coast leaders and elected officials, and the media, but not, it seems, at last look anyhow, the Associate Provost at USM Gulf Coast. What's going on here? Is this some kind of attempt to make an end run around the open meetings law? Or a PR venue?

http://www.ihl.state.ms.us/newsstory.asp?ID=402

Date: Jun 5, 2006

This meeting of the Mississsippi Old Boys' Network is called to order. Will the Old Boys from Oxford, Hattiesburg and Starkville please come forward to present their already-approved-in- back-room-deals plan to cut the people on the Coast out of their rightful share of the state's higher education revenues. Smile for the press everyone!

Date: Jun 5, 2006

This makes me laugh out loud! Thanks

Date: Jun 5, 2006

info wrote:

IHL Policies and Bylaws

301.0505 OPEN MEETINGS REQUIREMENTS It is the policy of the Board to conduct its meetings pursuant to the provisions of the Mississippi Open Meetings Act. Miss. Code Ann., §25-41-1, as amended. (BT Minutes, 5/90; 1/98)

But since this isn't really a meeting (per the IHL announcement), then it isn't subject to the open meetings requirement of board policy. Makes sense to me.

Date: Jun 6, 2006

Invictus wrote:

info wrote: IHL Policies and Bylaws 301.0505 OPEN MEETINGS REQUIREMENTS It is the policy of the Board to conduct its meetings pursuant to the provisions of the Mississippi Open Meetings Act. Miss. Code Ann., §25-41-1, as amended. (BT Minutes, 5/90; 1/98) But since this isn't really a meeting (per the IHL announcement), then it isn't subject to the open meetings requirement of board policy. Makes sense to me.

But Invictus, if the IHL is going to vote on matters affecting the pblic interest (for instanc,e such as USM outsourcing) shouldn't the meeting be public?

Date: Jun 6, 2006

http://mcfoi.org/handbook/open.html

Open Meetings
A Brief Synopsis of the Act
Mississippi Open Meetings Act
MCA § 25-41-1 et seq.

1. What entities are covered?
Any state, county, or local executive or administrative board, commission, authority, council, department, agency, bureau, or any other policy-making entity, or a committee thereof, which is supported wholly or in part by public funds, or expends public funds, as well as any standing, interim or special committee of the State Legislature. ...

3. What types of meetings are covered?
Any "assemblage of members of a public body at which official acts may be taken upon a matter over which the public body has supervision, control jurisdiction, or advisory power," including

a. an "informal meeting" of a public body and its staff although no votes are taken by the public body's members;
b. luncheon meetings of a public body where deliberation and discussion takes place concerning matters within the public body's jurisdiction;
c. work session of a public body; d. joint meetings of two public bodies; and
e. a local school board of trustees' visit to a public school.

4. What types of meeting are not covered?
"Chance" meetings or "social gatherings" of members of a public body are not covered. Regular meetings of public officials at the local coffee shop to discuss county or local business are not chance meetings. ....

7. What if a public body recesses its meeting, or calls a special meeting?
Specific notice of any recessed meeting, adjourned meeting, interim meeting, or any called special meeting must be posted within one hour after the meeting is called. ....

10. Enforcing rights under the law.
First step is to talk to local public official and express concern that the public body is not complying. Back up your request in writing. If informal discussions fail, you have the right to file suit in chancery court and request an injunction or writ of mandamus to require compliance.
Reporters should object verbally when a meeting is about to be closed, in apparent violation of the law. ...

Open Meetings
A Detailed Analysis of the Act ...

C. What bodies are covered by the law. ...
8. Other bodies to which governmental or public functions are delegated. These are covered if they meet the test set forth in § 25-41-3(a) and are both "created by statute or executive order" and are "supported wholly or in part by public funds." See I.C.4, supra. The Board of Trustees of State Institutions of Higher Learning is not exempt, even though it is created by constitution as well as statute. Board of Trustees v. Mississippi Publishers Corp., 478 So. 2d 273-78 (Miss. 1985). 9. Appointed as well as elected bodies. Whether the public body is elected or appointed is irrelevant to coverage under the Open Meetings Act. ...

...D. What constitutes a meeting subject to the Act.
1. Number.
To have a "meeting," there must be an "assemblage of members of a public body at which official acts may be taken upon a matter over which the public body has supervision, control, jurisdiction, or advisory power." § 25-41-3(b). Although there is no quorum requirement in the language of the statute, the Attorney General's office has opined that a meeting of any governmental body in which a quorum is not present does not fall strictly within the purview of the Open Meetings Act: Without a quorum, no "official acts may be taken upon a matter over which the public body has supervision." Op. Att'y. Gen. April 9, 1999 to Robert P. Chamberlin. (Some public bodies have been known to take advantage of this loophole by holding controversial meetings piecemeal, so that no quorum of the board was present at any given time.) Chance meetings or social gatherings are exempt. § 25-41-17. A "chance" meeting cannot be a meeting which was called, either officially or unofficially. Factors to be considered in determining whether a meeting is a "social gathering" include the activities that take place, the notice given, the agenda, and claims for per diem and travel expenses. A luncheon held on the day of a board meeting was held not to be a "social gathering" in Board of Trustees v. Mississippi Publishers Corp., 478 So. 2d 269, 278 (Miss. 1985). A public board can, however, attend a social function without complying with the Act "where no action is taken and their only function is to listen" Hinds County Board of Supervisors v. Common Cause, 551 So. 2d 107, 123 (Miss. 1989). Meetings with other public bodies are covered. Id.
2. Nature of business subject to the law.
a. "Information gathering" "fact-finding" sessions. These are covered. Board of Trustees v. Mississippi Publishers Corp., 478 So. 2d 269, 278 (Miss. 1985). "Work sessions" are also covered. Op. Att'y. Gen. Aug. 22, 1984 to Franklin C. McKenzie Jr.
b. Deliberations toward decisions. These are covered. Board of Trustees v. Mississippi Publishers Corporation, 478 So. 2d 269, 278 (Miss. 1985). Board members cannot meet informally before the meeting to decide how they will vote. Op. Att'y Gen. Feb. 15, 1995 to Freida E. Sipes. Cf. Maxey v. Smith, 823 F. Supp. 1321, 1331 (N.D. Miss. 1993) (potential due process violation). ...

IV. Procedure for Asserting Right of Access....
C. Court review of administrative action....
...4c. Order future meetings open. The courts have, for example, issued injunctive relief requiring the Board of Institution of Higher Learning to hold open meetings with college presidents. Board of Trustees, supra, 478 So. 2d at 278.

Date: Jun 6, 2006

but stephen--as the press release says, a quorum will not be present, and the IHL cannot therefore vote on issues.

Date: Jun 6, 2006

http://cgt.msstate.edu/pdf/2004/board_attorney_handbook_04.pdf

A HANDBOOK FOR
COUNTY BOARD ATTORNEYS
IN MISSISSIPPI
SECOND EDITION
By: Benjamin E. Griffith, Esquire

...Deliberative Stages Open to Public

The Open Meetings Act declares a policy that public business be performed in an open and
public manner. Burleson v. Hancock County Sheriff's Department, No. 2002-CC-00411-COA
(Miss.App. 2003). Reflecting the Act’s broad statement of public policy, the Mississippi Supreme Court
emphasized in Board of Trustees of State Institutions of Higher Learning v. Mississippi Publishers
Corporation, 478 So. 2d 269 (Miss. 1985):

[A]ll the deliberative stages of the decision-making process that lead to “formation and
determination of public policy” are required to be open to the public.... Official acts
include actions relating to formation and determination of public policy. ... (PDF p. 40)

---------------------
http://www.ago.state.ms.us/divisions/opinions/municipalcourse.pdf

MISSISSIPPI MUNICIPAL LEAGUE
CERTIFIED MUNICIPAL OFFICIALS COURSE
MUNICIPAL LAW
Heather P. Wagner
Assistant Attorney General...

II. Official Meetings of Public Bodies Must be Open and Public
A. Definition of “Meeting”...

3. Board of Trustees v. Mississippi Publishers Corp., 478 So.2d 269
(Miss. 1985) expanded the definition to include meetings at which
public policy is formulated and determined as well as meetings at
which official actions are taken. A meeting which involves
discussion pertaining to the “formation of public policy” is not a
purely social affair, even though no official action is taken. Factors
in determining whether event is purely social include the activity
taken at the event, the advance call or notice given to the
members, an agenda, a claim for per diem and travel expenses,
etc. (PDF p. 7)

-----------------------

Date: Jun 6, 2006

info wrote:

Open Meetings: A Brief Synopsis of the Act Mississippi Open Meetings Act MCA § 25-41-1 et seq.

3. What types of meetings are covered? Any "assemblage of members of a public body at which official acts may be taken upon a matter over which the public body has supervision, control jurisdiction, or advisory power," including

a. an "informal meeting" of a public body and its staff although no votes are taken by the public body's members;

b. luncheon meetings of a public body where deliberation and discussion takes place concerning matters within the public body's jurisdiction . . .'

d. joint meetings of two public bodies. . .

4. What types of meeting are not covered? "Chance" meetings or "social gatherings" of members of a public body are not covered. Regular meetings of public officials at the local coffee shop to discuss county or local business are not chance meetings.

SCM:

I'm not an attorney . . . but 3a of the synopsis of the OMA above would seem to indicate that today's IHL meeting is potentially in violation, for it's clear that "deliberation and discussion" of "matters within the public body's jurisdiction" are clearly on the agenda of the meeting at MGCCC-JD today. There would seem to be two points of contention: first, the exact definition of "public body" . Second, what constitutes an "offical act" of a "public body"?

First, does a meeting of 3-4 members of a "public body" plus the Commissioner of that body equate with the "public body" itself? Does the IHL group meeting today have some sort of official standing iwthin hte larger IHL? Are they a duly constituted committee, say, like the Facilities and Property Committee? Does a meeting quorum have to exist for a "public body" to exist? Clearly, today's meeting is neither a "social gathering" nor a "chance meeting." Does a formally-called non-quorum meeting not connote the "public body" that announces the meeting? What about if the meeting is announced through official channels and using staff resources--ie. the IHL press release--and the individual members of the public body travel and convene using state money?

I remember from somewhere--reading about the English Revolution?-- that such a meeting would be what is, I think, called a "rump session" of a public body. Such a "rump session" aspires to "official acts" but does not carry them out directly because it lacks legal standing. A rump, thus, connotes but does not denote the public body (pardon the puns here).

Thus, a liberal construction of "official acts" might define the term as anything that a rump session of the public body does in pursuit of the jurisdictional aims of the entire body. Is a vote the only an "offical act" a "public body" can effect? I would say no. In a rump session any number of "official acts" short of a vote could conceivably also take place. What if a rump of the board, for instance, decides at an "informal meeting" to take under consideration a certain proposal, and that, as a result, this particular proposal is the only one to be seriously deliberated upon at a "formal meeting" of the entire board. The mere receipt of the proposal by the rump might thus constitute an "official act" of the entire body.

It appears to me, again, that the IHL's "informal meeting" is potentially in violation of the OMA.

Who would have standing to ask the Attorney General for a definitive ruling?

Date: Jun 6, 2006

i made my comment before i saw the longer information on the open meetings law. however, the following passage at least gives some credence to the quorum interpretation:

Although there is no quorum requirement in the language of the statute, the Attorney General's office has opined that a meeting of any governmental body in which a quorum is not present does not fall strictly within the purview of the Open Meetings Act: Without a quorum, no "official acts may be taken upon a matter over which the public body has supervision." Op. Att'y. Gen. April 9, 1999 to Robert P. Chamberlin. (Some public bodies have been known to take advantage of this loophole by holding controversial meetings piecemeal, so that no quorum of the board was present at any given time.)

and i don't think the board is trying to have a controversial meeting piecemeal.

anyway, with the media present i don't think any actions will take place.

Date: Jun 6, 2006

Info Wrote:

A HANDBOOK FOR
COUNTY BOARD ATTORNEYS
IN MISSISSIPPI
SECOND EDITION
By: Benjamin E. Griffith, Esquire

The Open Meetings Act declares a policy that public business be performed in an open and public manner. Burleson v. Hancock County Sheriff's Department, No. 2002-CC-00411-COA (Miss.App. 2003).

Reflecting the Act’s broad statement of public policy, the Mississippi Supreme Court emphasized in Board of Trustees of State Institutions of Higher Learning v. Mississippi Publishers Corporation, 478 So. 2d 269 (Miss. 1985):

[A]ll the deliberative stages of the decision-making process that lead to “formation and determination of public policy” are required to be open to the public.... Official acts include actions relating to formation and determination of public policy. ... (PDF p. 40)

Yup, if this is bona fide, the board's again sailing into dangerous waters today. No, let me rephrase that: the people of the State of Mississippi are being navigated, without their knowledge or consent, into dangerous waters.

WLW

Date: Jun 6, 2006

I hear that some folks at MGCCC are pretty steamed that the IHL is using their site and didn't invite them. Leaving Dr. Joachim out is just plain rude.

Maybe somebody dropped the ball on the invites? Never attribute to malice, etc??

Date: Jun 6, 2006

fyi from the sun herald--

http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/14753898.htm

Date: Jun 6, 2006

well folks--what was the problem? will--care to comment? being a "burger" (in more ways than one) i see the news and see SFT and Joachim sitting in a meeting with others. i am puzzled about this thread.

Date: Jun 6, 2006

What puzzles you about this thread, SCM?

Date: Jun 6, 2006

invictus--i'm not sure of your question, knowing you. i see all sorts of consternation, opening meetings law citations, and the like. but at the end of the day, it's a pretty bland announcement. i see people on TV sitting there that people said were not invited. and so forth. i suspect the consternation on this thread was much ado about something. what do you think invictus? (of course, i side with your conspiracy thesis, so that's not an issue with me)

Date: Jun 6, 2006

stinky cheese man wrote:

invictus--i'm not sure of your question, knowing you. i see all sorts of consternation, opening meetings law citations, and the like. but at the end of the day, it's a pretty bland announcement. i see people on TV sitting there that people said were not invited. and so forth. i suspect the consternation on this thread was much ado about something. what do you think invictus? (of course, i side with your conspiracy thesis, so that's not an issue with me)

I think the meeting was a lot like Christmas -- a great big build up, lots of overblown expectations & pretty much a let down. (Yeah, I never got the pony.)

The lack of invitations appears to have resulted from the soirée being an 11th hour production.

The news reports are covering what was said in the meeting pretty accurately, IMO. Jerry O'Keefe (Ohr-O'Keefe Museum) had an interesting proposal for rebuilding the Marine Education Center next to the museum, but how seriously that proposal was taken by the board remains to be seen. Coast 21 luminaries such as Schloegel & Peresich were very visible. They still want their 4-year university on the coast & I suspect, a football team.

But it was a low key event.

Date: Jun 6, 2006

invictus--i only got what the pony left. i thought that was what you were getting at. pretty low key--about what you'd expect. yaada yaada--.

Date: Jun 9, 2006

Just to keep the "conspiracy pot" boiling (or maybe burning)... My "ears" tell me that the reason community college admins were unaware of the meeting is that it wasn't scheduled by an officer of Hancock Bank rather than by IHL...