Any Dome Links to Maxine Asher? - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Aug 31, 2004

RE: RE: Any Dome Links to Maxine Asher?

Date: Aug 31, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: educator
" The problem with USM's situation is that the state of Mississippi is tied to NCATE, in short, no NCATE accreditation - no teacher education program. Many states are not tied to NCATE, but MS definitely is. The graduate program in education is as tied into NCATE as the undergraduate program. "

educator,

I did not know that. But I do know that quite a few of the more prestigious public universities have abandoned their undergraduate teacher training programs in favor their masters-level teacher-training programs. Undergrads at those schools major in a subject matter (English, History, Chemistry, Biology, etc.) and then get their teacher training at the masters level. Sounds like a good idea to me. Would that work for USM?

Date: Aug 31, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: educator
" USM graduates account for over 40% of the teachers in MS. Everyone had better hope that USM does not lose their accreditation. "

educator,

If, as you say, 40% of the teachers in Mississippi are trained at USM and approximately 40% of the doctorates awarded at USM are in education, why not accept this as USM's primary mission? What's all of this fuss about economic development? Teacher training is surely more important than economic development (at least it is in my opinion).

Date: Aug 31, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Black and Gold Standard
"Soon after I came to USM I saw a catalog statement that said something to the effect that USM judges the quality of our programs by whether or not they are accredited. I thought that was a pretty low standard. Accreditation means only that a program has achieved the minimal standards. Judging a program's quality by it simply achieving accreditation is like fishing for flounder on the bottom."

So, if the standard is already low, imagine what it means if USM loses its accreditation(s).

Date: Aug 31, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Black and Gold Standard
"Teacher training is surely more important than economic development (at least it is in my opinion)."

It could be argued that teacher training is economic development.

And yes, USM originated as "The Normal"...

<CYNICISM>The only explanation I can think of for all the economic development brouhaha is that "economic development" is a buzz word that plays well with politicians, most of whom work their dead level hardest to ensure that it really doesn't take place. It's smoke & mirrors, pure & simple. The business "leaders" who appear to be the group that USM's leaders consult the most generally take a dim view of education regardless of the lip service they give to it. The stone cold truth is that businesses in a 3rd world economy like Mississippi want minimally literate, trainable workers who are utterly unaware of their rights & abjectly grateful for whatever job they can get. Regardless of what they say, Mississippi's business "leaders" & politicians are afraid of what an educated workforce might mean for the status quo.</CYNICISM>

Date: Aug 31, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
" It could be argued that teacher training is economic development."

Invictus,

That is precisely what I was trying to say. You said it much better. After I did that posting I went outside to mow the grass when I realized I had probably not made myself clear. I came back inside to my computer in order to clarify my post when I discovered you had clarified it for me. Nonetheless, here is what I was going to post:

Putting our resources into education would not only boost economic develpment, it would boost cultural and social development as well. It would benefit all Mississippian's regardless of their status. Puting our resources into some nebulous economic development program would benefit largely the factory owners, the stockholders, and maybe a few USM millionaires. The others who would be touched by this so-called "economic develpment" thrust would be the minimum wage Mississippi workers who would work in those places. Education is the surest and fastest route to economic development. So why don't we stop trying to develop these fashionable, flash-in-the-pan programs and get on with the business of educating our citizens. Economic development (along with social and cultural development) will follow close behind.

Date: Aug 31, 2004

I know quite a bit about how NCATE works as well. The state of MS is tied into NCATE. Without NCATE accreditation - no public university can have an accredited teacher education program. The schools mentioned as being unaccredited by NCATE but still being perceived as stellar are just that unaccredited (since they are not in a state that requires accreditation) but stellar (they set the bar as far as standards are concerned). Their faculty associated with teacher ed students have all taught in schools for at least 2 years (with seven plus being seen as ideal). IOW, they have walked the walk so they can talk the talk from real experience. Their programs are field based so that pre-service teachers get as much experience out in the field as possible. They model theory based practice. If a program is tied into a state that requires NCATE accreditation, then these programs must also follow the same ideals. This applies to the graduate program as well as the undergraduate program with some differences.

In 1996 (I think) - USM's program was put under probation, and reality hit this campus. Through the committed efforts of many leaders on campus including Susan Malone, Oraccio Cicarelli, Emory Howell, Jan Scott, David Walker, Susan Ross, and Eric Luce and Melissa Whiting USM successfully passed their 2nd review. It was a lot of hard work, but it paid off since the teacher education program flourisheduntil around, well, Jan. 2002.

Being accredited by NCATE allows our graduates mobility from this state to the 30 some other states under the NCATE umbrella. It gives our graduates more options, and it pays off in the long run to have it (since most neighboring states require NCATE accreditation too).

My 2 cents has become a bit more than that, but I hope that this explanation makes it a bit clearer (the NCATE website - I think is www.ncate.org)

Date: Aug 31, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by: Emma
"In 1996 (I think) - USM's program was put under probation"

Emma, all of this NCATE stuff is making more sense to me now. I was unaware that USM's NCATE accreditation was put under probation. I am sure it must a matter of public record, but can you tell me who was the dean at that time?

Date: Aug 31, 2004

The Dean of the COEP was Schnur (someone spellcheck me on that), but a lot of NCATE's problems, at that point in time, with USM had to do with governance issues - apparently the programs housed in other Colleges (this had to do with secondary education) weren't on the same page as the rest of the COEP (education component). The Elementary program housed in the Dept. of C & I was chaired by M.E. (Betty) Kersh and they came out very clean in that particular visit. Most of the problems had to do with secondary education issues. Kersh had the Department in immpecable order - it wasn't really an elementary ed. problem back in 1996. The TEC (Teacher's Ed Council) became the PEC (Professional Ed Council) and it became a very strong Unit with the Dean of the COEP serving as the person in charge (this ended up being interim Dean Bruce Holliman - who passed away this year -- and then Carl Martray who came from Western Kentucky in 1998). Carl's time at USM was a time of great productivity - his dedicated service was awarded by being basically fired in the reorganization of Deans last year (2003) - he moved to Mercer (where Fleming is) and recently hired Susan Malone to be the assoc. dean there. It's all quite a story.

Date: Aug 31, 2004

educator - if you are out there - feel free to jump in and clarify. You are an expert on this.

Date: Aug 31, 2004

speaking of the bold italicized words in your last post, Emma - there's a hearing coming up in mid Sept. Pickering has withdrawn himself from that case and now it's in the hands of Judge Ivan Lemelle who is male and African American. Godspeed.

Date: Aug 31, 2004

Whiting is female and Native American.

Date: Aug 31, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Jumping In
"Whiting is female and Native American."

Doesn't USM have an affirmative action program or did that also go the way of your English faculty?

Date: Aug 31, 2004

Whiting never played the Native American card - if any of you knew her - you already know that she wasn't into playing her minority status. This could become an issue in her lawsuit.

But, that's irrelevant to this board. It will soon be irrelevant to USM once they rid themselves of their Affirmative Action person. They dodged a bullet, didn't they??

Date: Aug 31, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Jumping in
"Whiting never played the Native American card - if any of you knew her - you already know that she wasn't into playing her minority status. This could become an issue in her lawsuit. But, that's irrelevant to this board. It will soon be irrelevant to USM once they rid themselves of their Affirmative Action person. They dodged a bullet, didn't they??"

Jumping in - I wasn't referring to anyone playing the Native American card. I was suggesting that qualified minority faculty members are usually very difficult to recruit, and equally difficult to retain, for any but the top universities

Date: Aug 31, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by: Jumping in

"It will soon be irrelevant to USM once they rid themselves of their Affirmative Action person. They dodged a bullet, didn't they??"

Jumping in - I did not knew that person. But your comment "They dodged a bullet, didn't they?" peaked my interest. Can you say more? If you can't, I understand.

Date: Aug 31, 2004

Melissa Whiting has a tribal card that verifies her Native American status. SFT could have cared less about the minority status. USM isn't really interested in retaining minority faculty. Whiting never wanted to be admitted to faculty based on her minority status, maybe if she had made a fuss about it they would have hesitated for a few more seconds before allowing academic jealousy to dominate nepotimistic decisions. By the same token, the way that she was dismissed wasn't about the racial card. I doubt Kim Chaze and Whiting will play that card. It's not about that - but it is just one more notch in the declining respect that this community holds for SFT, his daughter, and his cronies.

Date: Aug 31, 2004

For those hiding behind witty monikers and cloaks of anonymity while casting aspersions on my program (Adult Education) and my department (Educational Leadership and Research), please at least insure that your "facts" are correct. Thenextstateover claims that for the last five or six graduations ELR has graduated students by the horde, including 9 hooded doctoral students in one semester by one professor. Writing from home, I do not have the graduation programs in front of me. But I do not believe that that has happened, and I positively know that it has not been routine as thenextstateover implies. If it has happened at all, it is due to the absence of the dissertation chair at graduation, thus requiring one person to hood for two or more faculty.

"Amy" asserts that "Adult Ed with only two faculty members seems to pump out doctorates by the scores." Even allowing for anonymous--and thus unaccountable--hyperbole, such a statement almost rises above ridicule. I am in my 24th year at USM, and in that time I have hooded approximately 35 doctoral students, averaging about three students every six graduations. (I have done a few more in recent years). While my colleague has hooded a good number more than that, the accusation is reckless in the extreme. Amy and others might also wish to know that the Adult Ed program has no undergraduates, though on rare occasion an undergraduate might take one of our courses offered at the 400/500 level. The entire department of ELR (of which Adult Ed is a component; we are not an independent department) has only two exclusively undergraduate classes. Thus almost the entire faculty teach only graduate students. I myself have not had an undergraduate student in years. Hence it is not quite so unreasonable that we have time for and graduate higher numbers of graduate students since we do not have, for example, Liberal Arts' heavy load of undergraduate teaching and advisement.

Swan Song contemptuously notes that "What they are doing over there in Ed Leadership and Adult Ed has always been considered a joke." I hope, Swan Song, that you are not the person I think you might be, a person presently serving on an Adult Ed doctoral committee and thus culpable by participating in the joke. In any event, you are entitled to your opinion. I do hope that I am not so mean-spirited as you are. Swan Song further claims that "many good faculty members got out of there because they saw how wrong it was too." Who are these "many good faculty members"? I think I know about every faculty member in the department who has left for the last several years. While I can think of two who have complained about student quality--as I and others in the department have, and as Swan Song perhaps has in his/her department--neither confided to me that his departure was specifically due to anything other than, in one case, the wife not getting tenure in another department, thus causing them both to leave; and, in the other case, an unsolicited offer from a somewhat more prestigious university (that happened to be his alma mater) and an extremely attractive 2/1 teaching load. I'd have gone too. These were good friends of mine, and the primary reasons for their departures were, I am convinced, the ones I've given here. Several of the other departing faculty over the years would be people I am sure Swan Song and others would agree contributed to the appalling state of the department that he/she so deplores. And on some of these folks, I would agree. So I return to my question, Swan Song: Who are these many good faculty members who have left ELR as a matter of personal integrity?

All of this is not to say that the department and/or the Adult Ed program are without problems. The quality of applicant the department gets is certainly more diverse than, say, the Physics department. And yes, some faculty abet the problem through grade inflation, less than rigorous assessments of dissertations, and approval of dissertation topics of dubious value. Certainly I for one am not without sin on any of these counts. While defending my program, I and others are not oblivious to some of the issues raised, however scurrilously. Equally, some in the department are working towards the improvement of quality--work that occasionally, like now, has a Sisyphean feel. That effort to improve is not assisted by uncivil and even inaccurate attacks by anonymous casters of the first, second, and third stones.

Date: Sep 1, 2004

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Date: Sep 1, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: John Rachal
" And yes, some faculty abet the problem through grade inflation, less than rigorous assessments of dissertations, and approval of dissertation topics of dubious value.

"

Please do not take offense, Prof., but perhaps this is the root of the previous posts.