Alabama pardons Rosa Parks - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: May 3, 2006

Alabama pardons Rosa Parks

Date: May 3, 2006

I too wish Gov. Barbour would reconsider. However, I also wish there were a word or a mechanism other than "pardon." The word pardon implies that there was an offense, even though that's not really what it means in law. I wish there were an "exoneration" or something of that nature.

Date: May 3, 2006

Alabama Governor is Bob Riley, not Parks.

Date: May 5, 2006

Barbour is out making looking Mississippi like the Old South in the national media again for not pardoning Kennard:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060504/ap_on_re_us/mississippi_pardon;_ylt=AjsRC5k7YLfXsi8VhVVNkh.s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MjBwMWtkBHNlYwM3MTg-

Date: May 5, 2006

Perhaps Barbour is too busy worrying about his role in one of the many scandals besetting the Republicans right now:

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/000528.php

Date: May 5, 2006

Angeline wrote:

Perhaps Barbour is too busy worrying about his role in one of the many scandals besetting the Republicans right now:
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/000528.php

Pardons are great. How about less illegitimate children,less drug abuse,less school drop outs,less rap music,less affirmative action.

Date: May 5, 2006

Oh don't worry, Haley and his racist pals in the Council of Conservative Citizens are working on those very issues. Now, how about we be more concerned with political corruption, misappropriation of taxpayer funds, cronyism, and general malfeasance by people who have sworn on the Bible to uphold the Constitution?

Look here for more info.: http://www.burntorangereport.com/archives/000646.html

Date: May 5, 2006

This talk of posthumous pardoning is simply another liberal smoke and mirrors effort. Will a pardon bring Clyde Kennard back to life? No. Will a pardon punish those who were responsible for his suffering and death? No.

All a pardon will do is make some people feel better about a bad situation. Mississippi should wear that scar forever.

Angeline and others who constantly harp on conservatives over penny ante issues like this continue to illustrate that the liberal movement in America has no substance. If the liberal movement in America had any substance, they would be discussing candidates for president other than the likes of Hillary Clinton, whose "leadership" waxes and wanes according to opinion polls and whose "experience" includes only one dubiously elected office.

Date: May 5, 2006

What Mississippi needs is something along the lines of the "Truth and Reconciliation" commission that was set up in South Africa after the white minority apartheid regime there came apart.

South Africa's gone to hell in a handbasket in a lot of ways since--what with their phenomenal level of HIV and all--but at least they avoided the sort of mass, bloody, score settling that could've happened.

To live at peace with itself, Mississippi needs a full accounting of what happened to Clyde Kennard, Medgar Evers, Vernon Daumer, Goodman-Schwermer-Cheney and company. Instead, all we've done is identify the triggermen--and not even that with Kennard--and act as though justice had been served, better late than never, hallelujuh, amen.

That's not enough. We need to know who put the guns in their hands, who looked the other way when the shots were fired and who knew the injustice and violence were going to happen but did nothing even though they had power to stop it.

Date: May 5, 2006

Black Magic Marker wrote:

. . . Angeline and others who constantly harp on conservatives over penny ante issues like this continue to illustrate that the liberal movement in America has no substance. If the liberal movement in America had any substance, they would be discussing candidates for president other than the likes of Hillary Clinton, whose "leadership" waxes and wanes according to opinion polls and whose "experience" includes only one dubiously elected office.

BMM:

I agree, with one disclaimer, there is no "liberal movement" worth mentioning in the USA, so one cannot argue that it "has no substance."

If there were a real liberal movement, Dennis Kucinich and Barbara Lee (the Oakland, CA rep who alone in the House voted against the War Powers Act back in 2001) would be in a position to make a run at the White House. And John Kerry, Joe Biden, Joe Lieberman, Hilary Rodham-Clinton and other supposed "liberals" would be right where they belong: the center-right of the party of corporate capital, the GOP. The Democrats? They wouldn't even exist anymore. Twenty years ago, when Reagan rose to power by defining himself against the legacy of the New Deal, LBJ's "Great Society" and the turmoil of the 60's and 70's, there may have been considerable truth to the notion that he was some kind of white knight taking on corrupt hordes of liberal elitists and bureaucrats. But today? Give me a break! The USA has pulled so far to the right that even our supposed "liberals" are, even measured against our own history, profoundly reactionary.

In fact, the absence of liberal movement in the USA is so pronounced that about the only place you even hear about "a liberal movement" in the USA in the ranting declarations of various self-declared "conservatives" like Michael Savage, Rush Limbaugh and their ilk. No mainstream Dem's talk publically about "liberal" ideas; certainly they don't really pursue them when they have a chance.

What's my take on why Bill O'Reilly, Anne Coulter and the Washington Times are only sorts of places you encounter talk of some vast liberal conspircacy or liberal movement? It's only by identifying themselves as so many brave defenders of "American values" against "godless liberalism" that corporate toadies like the above named can hope to come off as even vaguely credible.

In other words, global corporatism--I won't say "conservative for reasons I'll shortly make clear--has perfected itself so well that it has no real opposition in the mainstreams of media, government and economic life. So to keep its hold on the minds of the USA's frightened, ill-informed consumer-citizens--and thus perpetuate its hold on power--corporatism has to make up enemies. Enemy #1: "Liberals and liberalism."

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that global corporatism has so perfected itself that is has to not only make up enemies, it has to mask its own true identity, otherwise heavily armed American citizen-consumers would be so enraged they'd be a threat to public order. You know what perfected corporatism calls that mask for the masses? "Conservatism." Yeah, that's right, "Conservatism". Global corporatism has about as much in common with traditional American conservative values as did V.I Lenin and Che Guevara. If it appeared as its scary, monstrous self, perfected coporate capitalism wouldn't survive one US electoral cycle.

Of course there's an older definition of perfected corporatism out there too. It was given to us by Benito Mussolini: "Fascism," he said, "is merely perfected corporatism."

So give up the liberal bashing, the socialist bashing, BMM, Cossack, Lest We Forget and the rest of you benighted marks of the corporate media: you're beating the proverbial deceased equine. Every time you guys whine that hordes of "socialists" and "liberals" are out there trying to "destroy America" or some crazy crap, you bring fascism one step closer.

And American-run fascism--global in its reach, utterly voracious in its appetite and nuclear armed--will make its 20th-century forerunners in Germany, Italy and Spain look like the Hattiesburg Chamber of Commerce.

Never say I didn't warn you . . .

Date: May 5, 2006

What I still want to know after reading this is whether Che Guevara and Eva Peron were ever an item.

Date: May 6, 2006

Plantation:

I knew if I dithered long enough, you would express the thoughts I was trying to organize. "Making up enemies"--yup, that's certainly what they're up to. The man behind the curtain is cranking furiously, and, incredibly, almost no one seems to have the curiosity or the courage to talk about what he's doing. Lou Dobbs, let it be said, rants nightly about the "corporate masters" of everyone from our elected government to much of the media. And he oughtta know--he was once one of them.

We might add that the self-anointed "conservatives" (what do they conserve, anyhow, besides their own wealth and power?), after decades of railing against "big government," have defanged the law, placed the country so far into hock that--you guessed it--only they have the wherewithal to get us out, and packed the Supreme Court for good measure. They have found it increasingly inconvenient to spend their valuable time and resources finding suckers to support their knavery at the polls, and so are working feverishly to vitiate our governmental tools to the point that We the People will not be able to withstand the power of the global corporate elite. At that point, financing an independent military, replete with nukes, should not be a problem.

The fun has just started, and even if our bovine democracy should start shaking itself out of its coma, it may well be too late.

Thanks again for your chilling insights,
Voter

Date: May 6, 2006

Voter:

Thanks for your kind, insightful reply. If I go over the top, it's because I'm trying to wake up our sleep walking fellow citizens, that "bovine democracy you described. You don't warn people that they're stepping in front of a speeding bus by calmly pointing out the color of the bus and discussing the merits of public transit versus private automobiles. You scream, "Look Out! Bus!"

Thus I've refused to enter into the sort of quibbling about low infant mortality in Denmark and high taxes in Sweden that our "conservative" colleagues have tried to bait me into. I'm not going to fight on their ground, I'm not going to employ their vocabulary. Here's why.

The world is on the verge of a profound paradigm shift in its political language, and, thus, its social processes. The new language is being forged, among other places, in the anti-globalization movement, the global anti-war movement and in the petro-populism of South Americans such as Hugo Chavez in Venezuela and Evo Morales in Bolivia. The old language of left and right, liberals and conservatives, capitalists and communists is no longer adequate to convey the new realities. Those who cling to it will themselves end up on the "trash heap of history" to which the USSR was so consigned by the Reagan-ator. Only the most myopic and narcissistic of observers, however,, can fail to realize that the USA is vulnerable to the same global social and economic forces that destroyed its countervailing nemesis the USSR. Nations are historically contingent upon such forces, yet Cossack and Lest We Forget seem to have forgotten this.

The latest evidence of the failure of the old paradigm--which is premised upon America's militant economic and political nationalism--is to be found in the 11 million or so Latino/a "illegal" immigrants who cut American meat and pick American fruit and vegetables. They were driven from their homes, jobs and land by social and economic changes set in motion by NAFTA and other "free trade" agreements. Those agreements have as their principal beneficiaries a small global elite that controls the vast majority of the world's wealth. Thus the old language we use to describe South-to-North migration in the western hemisphere--the "search for a better life", for "opportunity" "liberty and peace" in El Norte--no longer describes this change: the illegals have been driven north because corporatist economic policies have destroyed their way of life. They want to survive, so they followed the trail of the wealth that these policies created. Migration is not about success and opportunity anymore, it's about survival.

When "conservatives" crow about how everyone in the developing world wants to immigrate to the USA, they conveniently leave out the following fact: a considerable portion of the economy of the entire world is set up to benefit the USA, to keep it awash in cheap oil, cheap raw materials, cheap commodities. After we get our supposed rightful share, there ain't very much left over in places like northern Mexico. Hence they "follow the money" north.The irony is that the traditionally high standard of American middle-class living, and the USA's "tradional way of life"--its rich civil society and democratic political processes--are under stress from the same forces confronting the campesinos of northern Mexico.

Since the effect of 11 million illegals--mostly Mexican--in the USA is to drive down American wages, and since the rural poverty and urban violence in Mexico are so pronounced as to make it impossible for those migrants to "go home" voluntarily or any other way, the old language of "deportation" and "guest workers" and "resident aliens" no longer has any real meaning. In the aftermath of NAFTA and the various other free trade agreements, working and middle class American citizens may as well be classified as "illegal aliens" too. We don't own our country. We don't make its laws, or, as you pointed out, really elect its leaders. We have no say in our working conditions or wages and "our" envrionment is rapidly becoming corporate property, despite the destruction of our health and the natural world in which we all live. And a larger and larger proportion of us is thrown into prison every year mostly for victimless, drug related "crimes". Corporatism has done away with many of the protections and perquisites traditionally afforded citizens of elite liberal democracies. More are going every day.

We are all illegal aliens now.

Look Out! Bus!

Date: May 6, 2006

Calling all "Betas"

Join us while you still can:

http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?dist=newsfinder&siteid=google&guid=%7B9255A4D5-E96B-4D8A-857D-370CF8C20437%7D&keyword=

http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?guid=%7B00F0B5AF%2D2E6D%2D407A%2DA70A%2D6D558B2096D3%7D&dist=newsfinder&siteid=google&link=&keyword=microsoft+china

You're having a compensatory dream in your coma. The bus hit you already.

Date: May 6, 2006

off the plantation,

Two questions: Do you write this stuff over and over or do you cut and paste and, are you related to Edgar Allen Poe?

Date: May 6, 2006

Bilderberg Inc. wrote:

You're having a compensatory dream in your coma. The bus hit you already.

Try to be a little less cryptic, OK? As far as the articles go, the first one anyhow, they seem to indicate the effect of same sort of historical processes I was citing in relation to Mexico and NAFTA.

Another thought: the USA's 5% unemployment is often interrogated as being substancially deflated because so many folks in the USA are underemployed in low paid service jobs. Then there are all those folks who've dropped off of the unemployment figures because they've stopped looking for jobs and their bebefits have run out.

But the elephant in the living room of all these questions is outsourcing. In India and China there are more than enough state-trained computer nerds to take every highly skilled technical job on the planet that can be done over a phone line. The state-trained nerds in India and China will work for about 1/5 of their counterparts in the EU and USA. Capital will trample on children and old people to get the kind of returns those low wages make possible.

Date: May 6, 2006

OTP, dearie, have you considered setting up your own message board?

Date: May 7, 2006

Little old lady wrote:

OTP, dearie, have you considered setting up your own message board?

Little Old Lady, don't you find Off the Plantation very educational, informative and intellectually stimulating? OTP is a welcome balance to "Lest We Forget", "Cossack", "Mr. Capitalist" and others, not to mention the "conservative" media and sermons we receive here in the Deep South, Bible Belt.

Date: May 7, 2006

Actually, OTP makes some points pretty relevant to this board. The mentality of the corporate world has grown more virulent and destructive over the decades. When USM begins talking about money as the bottom line rather than education and culture, and when administrators make more and more inflated salaries but faithful staff next to nothing, then the barbarians are within the gates.

I'm wondering why the local religious community has so bought in to the spirit of worldliness, because it makes the Christ of Revelation gag: "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot: I would that you were cold or hot. So then because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth. Because you say, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and know not that you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked" (3:15-17). The Church has so bought into the American dream of a single-dwelling house with a mortgage that it has lost its prophetic edge. Where is the concern for honesty and fair dealing? Where is the outrage over the shabby living conditions that a me-me culture has imposed on much of our local population, let alone over human rights violations elsewhere? Where is the concern for stewardship of our planet? We are so bound by our possessions that we have forgotten that this world is not our home.

I've been meaning to say that the only human societies I've ever seen that really worked were chastened ones living in the fear of God and in charity with one's neighbor, like the early church in Jerusalem, the early Mennonites, or early seventeenth-century Poland. But we don't hear too much about such communities because the thought that such places might be possible is profoundly disturbing, because most of us have set the bar of our social expectations far too low. And in any case these communities are short-lived because vulnerable to less-principled external forces. Let me add for Atheist's sake that I have sometimes seen visions of such a society embraced by atheists--the admirable Sartre, for instance, was concerned that he live authentically and could be relied on to keep his word--but those visionaries don't appear to have the power to make the vision a reality for others.

JL

Date: May 7, 2006

Jameela Lares wrote:

Actually, OTP makes some points pretty relevant to this board. The mentality of the corporate world has grown more virulent and destructive over the decades. When USM begins talking about money as the bottom line rather than education and culture, and when administrators make more and more inflated salaries but faithful staff next to nothing, then the barbarians are within the gates. I'm wondering why the local religious community has so bought in to the spirit of worldliness, because it makes the Christ of Revelation gag: "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot: I would that you were cold or hot. So then because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth. Because you say, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and know not that you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked" (3:15-17). The Church has so bought into the American dream of a single-dwelling house with a mortgage that it has lost its prophetic edge. Where is the concern for honesty and fair dealing? Where is the outrage over the shabby living conditions that a me-me culture has imposed on much of our local population, let alone over human rights violations elsewhere? Where is the concern for stewardship of our planet? We are so bound by our possessions that we have forgotten that this world is not our home. I've been meaning to say that the only human societies I've ever seen that really worked were chastened ones living in the fear of God and in charity with one's neighbor, like the early church in Jerusalem, the early Mennonites, or early seventeenth-century Poland. But we don't hear too much about such communities because the thought that such places might be possible is profoundly disturbing, because most of us have set the bar of our social expectations far too low. And in any case these communities are short-lived because vulnerable to less-principled external forces. Let me add for Atheist's sake that I have sometimes seen visions of such a society embraced by atheists--the admirable Sartre, for instance, was concerned that he live authentically and could be relied on to keep his word--but those visionaries don't appear to have the power to make the vision a reality for others. JL

I enjoyed your excellent post, Jameela, that contains important thoughts for this Sunday morning. You noted some interesting positions by some local "Christians" concerning the acquisition of wealth. I was told by a local "Christian" that their success in business was a "blessing from God" and an indication he was living a "Christian" life. When this person has a "problem" he tends to question what action on his part caused God to punish him. It seems to me that people with this mentality must be "successful" at all cost otherwise the community will think they are not living the good Christian life. For me, this explains, as you put it, "why the local religious community has so bought in to the spirit of worldliness".

However, being an atheist, this is only what I see from the outside. I welcome being educated as to what you view from the inside.

Date: May 7, 2006

to: "off the plantation"

Date: May 7, 2006

RE: Alabama pardons Rosa Parks

Date: May 7, 2006

I like "exonerated," too.

Atheist, thanks for your kind words. I always appreciate your posts. I'm sorry but my early morning burst of creativity has been followed by a return of whatever cold it is I have, and I'm home sick from church. I can't really summon up much of an answer right now, except to note that your outside take on the subject is instructive. From the inside, I can say that "prosperity" as a stand-alone theology is dangerous, as is any "all you've gotta do is just--" philosophy. Prosperity=righteousness has far less authority from scripture, church or tradition than does, say, 1 Timothy 6:6-11: "Godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and clothing let us be with these things content. But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which plunge men into destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But you, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness," or Hebrews 13:5-6: "Let your conduct be without covetousness; and be content with such things as you have: for he has said, I will never leave you, nor forsake you. So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me," or Matthew 6:19-21" "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust does corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust does corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also," or just the plain old last commandment: "Thou shalt not covet."

There are similar injunctions I could supply for Scales of Justice against thinking that mere faith without corresponding action is any good, such as the entire epistle of James, but I really need to go crash now.

JL

Date: May 7, 2006

Jameela Lares wrote:

... Atheist, thanks for your kind words. I always appreciate your posts. I'm sorry but my early morning burst of creativity has been followed by a return of whatever cold it is I have, and I'm home sick from church. ... JL

Jameela, I'm sorry that you're ill. It must be from some sinfull living.

(Wished you had emailed me, I would have joined you.)

Date: May 7, 2006

I merely suggested his own forum to OTP because he does go on at length. Also, I have a wisp of an inkling that OTP is not Kate, and in any case that post was ungracious.

-- salus cruce

Date: May 7, 2006

Jameela Lares wrote:

such as the entire epistle of James

I imagine that you are a great teacher. Your response caused me to re-read James, in three versions I might add. 4:11-12 caused some necessary introspection but I am still grappling with the lack of equity involved with works absent faith or maybe works based on different faith. That discussion wanders too far afield, I'm afraid. Add my thoughts to others who hope you feel better.

Date: May 7, 2006

Scales, an imperfect analogy, but this comes to mind:

When you love and believe in your spouse or child, what works would that cause you to perform? You do all sorts of things for those you love. If one you love asks you to do certain things, the action arises out of the love; it is a natural consequence of the love.

I got up this morning and went to church. I didn't really want to, actually. It was raining. I wanted to sleep. I went because, at this stage in my life, I have embraced church attendance as a "work" which I undertake out of love, both for God and for my fellow members. I no longer go to church for what I get out of it, as I did for many, many years. Going to church does not make me a better person (although church is a hospital for sinners in any case.) I go for what I can give into it, and of course I "get" after that. It's taken a long time to get to this point.

Since this faith vs. works is of the Big Questions, almost the ground of the Reformation, I hope you're not really expecting a satisfactory answer here.

Date: May 7, 2006

-- is ONE of the Big Questions,

Date: May 7, 2006

Scales of Justice wrote:

Jameela Lares wrote: such as the entire epistle of James I imagine that you are a great teacher. Your response caused me to re-read James, in three versions I might add. 4:11-12 caused some necessary introspection but I am still grappling with the lack of equity involved with works absent faith or maybe works based on different faith. That discussion wanders too far afield, I'm afraid. Add my thoughts to others who hope you feel better.

Scales and Jameela, I find this reasoning about the irrational fascinating. The power of faith is that you don't need evidence. If you really believe that faith is all that is necessary, then by God, that is all that is necessary for you. On the other hand, if you believe that works are required, well too bad, you have a lot of work to do. God works in mysterious ways. What is good for the goose, may not be good for the gander.

Or do you think there is only one true Christianity? As soon as you determine the true one, please let this poor atheist know. Then we can start on true Islam, etc, etc.

Date: May 7, 2006

LVN and Atheist, you both have misunderstood my post in different ways. I don't have the energy to explain and it's really not very important. The gist is that I am concerned that religious hypocrisy is more of an issue than the evils of capitalism much discussed on this thread. Professor Lares, perhaps intentionally or perhaps not, directs me to a passage that reminds me that I am not the the ultimate judge.