NYT piece from today - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Apr 26, 2006

NYT piece from today

Date: Apr 26, 2006

"If students fidget, talk or walk out of class, the guide advises seminar leaders not to "manage" such behaviors, but to explore their underlying causes. Instructors must remember that to such characteristically American cultural beliefs as the importance of morality, rationality and personal responsibility, there are equally valid alternatives that must be respected." (my emphasis)

This is from Case Western?

Equally valid alternatives to morality, rationality and personal responsibility? Who writes this dreck? And when did these become "characteristically American cultural beliefs"?

That was revolting. And scary.

Date: Apr 26, 2006

LVN wrote:

"If students fidget, talk or walk out of class, the guide advises seminar leaders not to "manage" such behaviors, but to explore their underlying causes.

I think I know the underlying cause in most cases. It is because the 50-minute lecture hour has ended, the professor is still lecturing, but the students know they have only a few minutes to get to their next class. That would be enough to make most students figit, talk, or walk out of class.

Date: Apr 26, 2006

This is, of course, from the "enlightened" intelligensia. For those of us in fly-over country, it is a fantasy world.

I once had a student who after they got their test, decided to walk out, causally. My response - reamed them one, and said "keep on walking -your through here in this class". Continued the lecture. After the class, the student decides to drop by and wonders what I meant. My response? "Your through, history, done, finished, out of my class. You want to talk to the chair or Dean - help yourself".

I'm easy to deal with. Flexible, and will work for students. But I have no respect for a student who has no respect for me. I guess that is not what I should do. Perhaps I am supposed to get to the underlying issue. Well, I already know what that issue is. A total disregard for a professor, his class, his college, and his university. That's all I need to know.

Anyway - back to counting....

Count

Date: Apr 26, 2006

I think the notion in that article that the better universities have one word names is correct. Yale, Harvard, Princeton, Tulane, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Rice, and Millsaps are only few that come to mind. Any ideas about what we should be named?

Date: Apr 26, 2006

LVN DID NOT write that quotation!! That was copied and pasted from a seminar quide at Case Western.

Count, in this case it sounds like that university has the lack of respect -- for the norms of civilized behavior, and for the students they are charged to teach. If I were a parent and saw that, I'd be asking for a refund.

Date: Apr 26, 2006

LVN wrote:

LVN DID NOT write that quotation!! That was copied and pasted from a seminar quide at Case Western.

I knew you didn't write that. Sorry it came across like that. Guess I wasn't thinking clearly. But it was not copied and pasted. I used the Quote/Reply function at the upper right of the post. I've seen similar confusion when others have used that function.

Date: Apr 26, 2006

LVN wrote:

LVN DID NOT write that quotation!! That was copied and pasted from a seminar quide at Case Western. Count, in this case it sounds like that university has the lack of respect -- for the norms of civilized behavior, and for the students they are charged to teach. If I were a parent and saw that, I'd be asking for a refund.

So LVN - what you are saying is that I really should accept this kind of behavior in a class. That students can come and go at their leisure. That they can flippantly do what they want.

I promise you, when parents who decide to come and find out "what happened to my child in this class", you know what happens 9 times out of 10? They become furious that their child behaved in that way. They are often stunned that their child would treat another person in such a disrespectful fashion. I have literally heard my fellow colleagues comment on how a particular parent could not wait to get home and "explain" to junior what is acceptable and not acceptable. So, I'm not buying this lack of civilized behavior on our part.

Count

Date: Apr 26, 2006

No, Count. In the case of the quoted article, the University itself is telling the teacher to accept and understand, etc. what you and I both consider unacceptable behavior.

I don't think you actually read what I actually said.

Date: Apr 26, 2006

LVN wrote:

No, Count. In the case of the quoted article, the University itself is telling the teacher to accept and understand, etc. what you and I both consider unacceptable behavior. I don't think you actually read what I actually said.

Granted. I interpreted your statement from the student's (in this case my student) point of view. I apologize.

I would also qualify that this has happened only a few times in my career (maybe 3 times in dozens of semesters). I give students tremendous leeway, as long as they accept that they should perform, and that there are consquences for their behavior.

I just walked the dog, and during his explorations I had to think - Would their employer accept this kind of behavior? Would their family? Their church? Even their friends? The answer is always no. And yet somehow they have learned that it is alright in a college classroom. Undoubtedly, my student had done this before, with no consequences. Why else would he have done this?

That is one of the great tragedies of higher education. We have let such things as grade inflation create an environment with no consequences for poor performance. We have let students believe that a college education is a right, as opposed to a privilege. And perhaps worst of all - they consider their college responsibilities as a low priority. Punching a ticket.

We as college educators enable this, unfortunately. Just like they say about politicians. We get exactly the students we ask for.

Anyway - sorry again. I'm finishing a R&R for submission Friday. Stressed out, and irritated. Off to bed after working till 12:20. Do I get overtime for that?

Count

Date: Apr 26, 2006

No, you don't get overtime, but I do accept your apology. I could tell you weren't really on the same page with me.

The article itself is very disheartening. However, I found the statement about morality and rationality to be worse than our concerns about student behavior. This respected university is saying to its instructors that there are VALID alternatives to morality, rationality and personal responsibility! Alternatives such as . . . ?? It's horrifying.

Date: Apr 27, 2006

LVN wrote:

No, you don't get overtime, but I do accept your apology. I could tell you weren't really on the same page with me. The article itself is very disheartening. However, I found the statement about morality and rationality to be worse than our concerns about student behavior. This respected university is saying to its instructors that there are VALID alternatives to morality, rationality and personal responsibility! Alternatives such as . . . ?? It's horrifying.

I agree, LVN, except for "morality". Your "morality" may not be my "morality". A Muslim's belief may differ from a Jew's or atheist's. It other words "morality" is relative. However, a culture or club can insist on one morality for entry. Then obeying that morality can be considered personality responsibility. Have these "students" been informed about the "morality" of The University? That may be the underlying cause.

Date: Apr 27, 2006

Your "morality" may not be my "morality".

When you are in a class, your morality is not relevant to how the class is run. As a student you abide by the rules or drop the class. Outside of class, if your morality leads you to break laws, you go to jail.

Date: Apr 27, 2006

I still believe that if a professor lectures ten or fifteen minutes beyond the end of the class period, the student has every right to walk out if she has another class scheduled across campus. It is just as rude to enter a classroom late as it is to leave a classroom early. The Period 2 professor deserves that common courtesy from the Period 1 professor. No professor should place the student in such a bind.

Date: Apr 27, 2006

Deep thinker wrote:

I still believe that if a professor lectures ten or fifteen minutes beyond the end of the class period, the student has every right to walk out if she has another class scheduled across campus. It is just as rude to enter a classroom late as it is to leave a classroom early. The Period 2 professor deserves that common courtesy from the Period 1 professor. No professor should place the student in such a bind.

Another bit of common sense: erase your blackboard when you have finished your class. The next lecturer should not be expected to do that for you.

Date: Apr 27, 2006

Deep thinker wrote:

I still believe that if a professor lectures ten or fifteen minutes beyond the end of the class period, the student has every right to walk out if she has another class scheduled across campus. It is just as rude to enter a classroom late as it is to leave a classroom early. The Period 2 professor deserves that common courtesy from the Period 1 professor. No professor should place the student in such a bind.

I agree. We've all had professors do that. I had one at Memphis who was so terrible -- and you couldn't get to the door without walking in front of him -- I finally went to the professor of the next class and explained the situation. How egotistical to think that your class is so much more important than the next one. Not just rude to the students, but rude to your colleagues.
But that's not what the Case Western publication is about. CW seems to think the professor should indulge and excuse any behavior on the grounds that rules are just quaint artifacts of prevailing American culture.

Date: Apr 27, 2006

More common sense. When the class has ended, you and your students should vacate the classroom. It is rude to keep your students lingering in the classroom while other students are waiting outside the door for their next class scheduled in the same room. Make appropriate arrangements to talk with your students outside the class period, but to use the next professors class time for this is rude.

Date: Apr 27, 2006

LVN wrote:

CW seems to think the professor should indulge and excuse any behavior on the grounds that rules are just quaint artifacts of prevailing American culture.

It sounds like CW doesn't know the meaning of couth (as in "uncouth.")

Date: Apr 27, 2006

I both checked out the opinion piece and found the Case Western site for the referenced program, SAGES. I think that while the material cited in the NYT blurb does indeed sound unnecessarily relativistic, it may be taken out of context and/or have misunderstood the context. The author of the opinion is, after all, citing from an in-house journal that may presume a history of certain abuses or successes without having to spell them out for its target readers. He is also a satirist, and both opinion and satire provide some latitude. I don't know, for instance, if the NYT is under any obligation to check the accuracy of his allegations, though perhaps a journalist can advise us. Nevertheless, it might be interesting to see what kind of fallout the citations produce among both Case Western parents and national educators.

Deep Thinker: I agree that professors need to end class on time, and I always try to do so, though I do have to look over my shoulder a good bit and look for tell-tale fidgeting. It would also help if USM's clocks were all set to the same time.

JL

Date: Apr 27, 2006

Deep thinker wrote:

I still believe that if a professor lectures ten or fifteen minutes beyond the end of the class period, the student has every right to walk out if she has another class scheduled across campus. It is just as rude to enter a classroom late as it is to leave a classroom early. The Period 2 professor deserves that common courtesy from the Period 1 professor. No professor should place the student in such a bind.

You are correct, Deep Thinker. It would help if all classrooms had accurate clocks. Also most buildings had bells that rang to start and end the period, and then the bells in some buildings were disconnected. Because of these problems, some profs have asked students to inform them if they go passed the "bell" during their lecture. It is hard to keep track of the time if your are deeply involved in a complicated lecture.

Date: Apr 27, 2006

Professor Lares,

Here I am enjoying a good bout of righteous indignation and head-shaking despair with the modern world, and you come along with all this rationality and fairness.
Some people really know how to spoil a party!

Date: Apr 27, 2006

It seems to me that most students attending University are considered adults in our society. If those adults sign an agreement to attend lecture being held by proffessor X, for a certain day, shouldn't Professor X, who hopefully is also an adult, respect that agreement and end the lecture on time? What about the personal responsibility of the professor? From what I have seen, students are required to attend lecture a Y number of times. If the student leaves early, possibly forfitting attendance for lecture that day by not giving an excuse, what is that to the professor? Isn't it within the student's right to do so? Perhaps, I have misunderstood here, but it is not so hard to make a Chai Latte from scratch.

Date: Apr 27, 2006

Note, by the way, that the NYT opinion piece never mentioned students leaving class because the the scheduled end of a lecture had arrived. The protest against professors going overtime would seem to be Deep Thinker's own cri de coeur. JL

Date: Apr 27, 2006

To echo Cossack:

I run my classroom. The guidelines for the class are set out by the Faculty Handbook, the Student Handbook, and my course syllabus. I offer the course as I think it is best offered, after consultation with colleagues at other schools regarding appropriate norms and standards. Students may take my course or not. If they choose not to take my course, then they can either wait for someone else to teach it or they can change their major. The Burger King "Have It Your Way" method of coddling students is one major misstep that has gotten higher education into the poor situation we currently observe daily. Professors are the authority on course content.

As for behavior, we should hire old Catholic Nuns to teach freshman comp. That would straighten out some of these classroom problems.

Date: Apr 27, 2006

Jameela Lares wrote:

Note, by the way, that the NYT opinion piece never mentioned students leaving class because the the scheduled end of a lecture had arrived.

The NYT opiniion piece said only "If students fidget, talk or walk out of class . . " It did not specify at which point the walk out might occur. My post was based on the assumption that the walk out would occur prior to the scheduled end of the lecture. It wouldn't be a walk out if it occurred after class was over.

Date: Apr 28, 2006

These complaints about morality,responsbility,etc. are just another way for the man to keep his foot on the back of the underdog. These students have rights,they are human beings and they deserve respect,especially those from minority cultures.Values and morals are society's way of keeping people in their place. Look at what happen to Bill Clinton.

Date: Apr 28, 2006

Justice for All wrote:

These complaints about morality,responsbility,etc. are just another way for the man to keep his foot on the back of the underdog. These students have rights,they are human beings and they deserve respect,especially those from minority cultures.Values and morals are society's way of keeping people in their place. Look at what happen to Bill Clinton.

Yes. You are correct. If you wish to operate in the mainstream, you must adopt mainstream behavior. Those who refuse to adopt mainstream behavior should be actively marginalized.

Date: Apr 28, 2006

Recidivism wrote:

Yes. You are correct. If you wish to operate in the mainstream, you must adopt mainstream behavior. Those who refuse to adopt mainstream behavior should be actively marginalized.

My, how anti-American of you.

Perhaps you should start your reeducation with reading the 1st Amendment to the Constitution:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Grievances, you would say, are non-mainstream positions and therefore "should be actively marginalized." Well, not in the ole USA buddy.

Date: Apr 28, 2006

These complaints about morality,responsbility,etc. are just another way for the man to keep his foot on the back of the underdog. These students have rights,they are human beings and they deserve respect,especially those from minority cultures.Values and morals are society's way of keeping people in their place. Look at what happen to Bill Clinton.

A student's place is to be a student with all of the rights and responsibilities that entails. Since classes are taught to a group of students, no individual student has rights over and above the group. If a student does not know how to behave, then sanctions are administered. Only silly people talk about the "man" and foot on the "underdog". There is a process that a student either buys into or not when they are accepted into the University. If they do not, they suffer the consequences.

Date: Apr 28, 2006

Justice for All wrote:

These complaints about morality,responsbility,etc. are just another way for the man to keep his foot on the back of the underdog. These students have rights,they are human beings and they deserve respect,especially those from minority cultures.Values and morals are society's way of keeping people in their place. Look at what happen to Bill Clinton.

ALERT!! ...ALERT!! This post, backed up by "Recidivism", makes one wonder if we have some trolls out this afternoon. Also we have several threads with unconfirmed "Breaking News". These are typical signatures of trolls preparing for a slow weekend.