HA, 3/18/06: USM faculty voice concerns over proposals - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Mar 19, 2006

RE: HA, 3/18/06: USM faculty voice concerns over proposals

Date: Mar 19, 2006

2 Out Of 3 Ain't Bad wrote:

Profs don't own the shop. You work at the shop. I own the shop

And I'll bet you outsource your customer service department overseas to a country where it is unlawful to speak English.

Careful, my friend, or your shop will eventually be unionized if you persist in treating your employees shabbily.

And remember, shop owner: the customer is always right.

Date: Mar 19, 2006

kiln eagle wrote:

Of course not wrote: All the above wrote: As a staff member of the university, community member (of course), and local business owner I find the attitude of our faculty on this thread and many others to constantly degrade those without PhDs. Honestly, do you believe the only intelligent people in this community are academics? Nope, we have a bunch of very bright staff also. And lot's of bright people in the community (heck, we trained a lot of 'em). But we are getting tired of being told how to do our jobs (irrespective of the Ph.D). I don't tell staff in HR, I-TECH, Admissions, or Financial Affairs how to do their jobs, because I have no idea how to do that work and it would be very rude behave in that manner. I'll ask questions, and try to understand what I need to understand to interact with those folks, but they get my respect and gratitude for the yeoman's work they do. Faculty at USM get the treatment from the likes of Bossman 2 out of 3. I am currently interviewing for other jobs--and at all those sites faculty are viewed as valuable human and intellectual capital-not chattel. Damn, I barely get done reading one condescending post and have to suffer through another patronizing one. And you can't figure out why the community feels the way they do about you. Unbelievable.

Not intended to be condescending. Right now, most of the staff in my neck of the woods (those left at least) are more po'ed with admin than faculty (in many academic units, but not all, staff and faculty are tight in the workplace and outside the workplace). Can't speak for how it is in the non-academic units.

Date: Mar 19, 2006

kiln eagle wrote:

Damn, I barely get done reading one condescending post and have to suffer through another patronizing one. And you can't figure out why the community feels the way they do about you. Unbelievable.

I'm not at all sure you speak for "the community," kiln eagle. Let's not forget that back when the HA and other media would routinely run polls about Shelby's performance, Shelby would always lose, often by margins of 9 to 1. I'm sure there are plenty of intelligent people in Hattiesburg who are really distressed by the damage he has done to their community and to its reputation throughout the country.

By the way, the particular post to which you responded was not at all condescending or patronizing.

Date: Mar 19, 2006

USM Sympathizer wrote:

kiln eagle wrote: Damn, I barely get done reading one condescending post and have to suffer through another patronizing one. And you can't figure out why the community feels the way they do about you. Unbelievable. I'm not at all sure you speak for "the community," kiln eagle. Let's not forget that back when the HA and other media would routinely run polls about Shelby's performance, Shelby would always lose, often by margins of 9 to 1. I'm sure there are plenty of intelligent people in Hattiesburg who are really distressed by the damage he has done to their community and to its reputation throughout the country. By the way, the particular post to which you responded was not at all condescending or patronizing.

Now I'm being told how to read posts by the intelligent ones. I'm sorry. I guess I don't have that right.

Date: Mar 19, 2006

2 Out Of 3 Ain't Bad wrote:

I'm glad you're looking for another job, and the sooner you get out the better. Dr. Thames will replace you with an educator who recognizes the need to solicit input from the Mississippi community.

There are times (and this post is one of them) when I begin to suspect that 2 out of 3 is just a big joke, somone having some fun by putting us on. No one can be this sycophantic and this authoritarian at the same time!

Date: Mar 19, 2006

2 Out Of 3 Ain't Bad wrote:

Joker wrote: Hey, "2 out of 3", I hear there are some "slackers" at Forrest General. Professors get peanuts compared to those doctors. I think you should lead a community effort to review how Forrest General is being run, especially those in bain surgery. .

I'll ignore your sarcasm and remind you that medicine saves lives while education claims to enrich those lives. Medical care is a basic need. There are plenty of old folks who have survived without education but who can't survive without medical care. Your analogy is poor.

No, "2 out of 3" you are making many mistakes. Please let Joker correct your poor aplication of logic. First, since medicine is so important is why your efforts to make everything so efficient should concentrate on Forrest General. Your statements above are correct, but your conclusion is wrong. You waste your talent on a fourth tier university while Forrest General goes down the tubes. Very poor logic on your part.

Second, when SFT's backers said, "A days work for a days pay" they were refering to SFT's desire to get more RESEARCH out of the faculty. This is so USM can get more research grant money. Your mistake is you didn't understand what a university is and took the statement to mean, "make the faculty teach more". This is a factual error on your part which has lead to many, many post about nothing.

I think you should just tell Joker, "Oh! Never mind". I'm sure the readers wil excuse your many errors.

Date: Mar 19, 2006

2 Out Of 3 Ain't Bad wrote:

I'm glad you're looking for another job, and the sooner you get out the better. Dr. Thames will replace you with an educator who recognizes the need to solicit input from the Mississippi community.

Not a problem. Except that we do have quite a few mutually benefical partnerships with industry and community boards already, listen to them closely, and quite a bit of what we do is based on MS and local needs. We just don't have anybody quite like you. You sound like one of those Mississippi 60s types who complained about outside agitators all the time. I have only met a few, but they show up in the paper every now and again. By the way, if you think SFT solicited your opinion because you have something valuable to say, you are sorely confused. He likes your cash and political support, but, bottom line, he could care less about your opinion.

Date: Mar 19, 2006

Anyone who wonders why it is so hard to recruit faculty to USM will have their answer if they read this thread. One wonders if it will ever change.

Date: Mar 19, 2006

Outer Limits wrote:

Anyone who wonders why it is so hard to recruit faculty to USM will have their answer if they read this thread. One wonders if it will ever change.

There was a time when I would have thought it enticing to come to USM, based on the excellent reputation the university had in my field. Not now -- and not by a long shot. I can't imagine why any sensible person would want to apply for a job at USM as long as Shelby Thames (and the attitude he personifies, and the people who back him) rules the roost. The faculty (and staff) still left at USM have my heartfelt sympathy and that of many others who know about the predicament you all are in.

Date: Mar 19, 2006

kiln eagle wrote:

Just an opinion wrote: All the above wrote: As a staff member of the university, community member (of course), and local business owner I find the attitude of our faculty on this thread and many others to constantly degrade those without PhDs. Honestly, do you believe the only intelligent people in this community are academics? Thanks for a thoughtful post. Of course no one assumes (or should assume) that anyone without a PhD is unintelligent -- far from it. Most faculty members have parents, siblings, friends, spouses, relatives, etc. who do not have specialized degrees, and we certainly do not disrespect their intelligence at all.

Even the answer to all of the above is condescending. As has been said here before, you guys are your own worst enemies.

Kiln Eagle, with all due respect, if you consider the response to your post condescending, then either you don't know the meaning of the word or you are too sensitive to read boards such as this. If you consider my post condescending, then you do understand the meaning of the word. Sorry, but that is the impression your response gave me.

p.s.I don't work at USM.

Date: Mar 19, 2006

Joker,

Congratulations on posting the 100th response to this thread! Surely you deserve some kind of award!

Date: Mar 19, 2006

Just an opinion wrote:

Joker, Congratulations on posting the 100th response to this thread! Surely you deserve some kind of award!

Thanks so much, Just an Opinion. And congratulations to you for being 101. I hope to hear from you again when we reach 200.

Date: Mar 19, 2006

Joker, and you are 1002nd. Big whoopdeedo.

Date: Mar 19, 2006

Just for clarification, in my opinion as a staff member on "the other side of campus" most of us don't understand ya'll. We can't comprehend the defense of you work-life or your world view.

Date: Mar 19, 2006

Staff wrote:

Just for clarification, in my opinion as a staff member on "the other side of campus" most of us don't understand ya'll. We can't comprehend the defense of you work-life or your world view.

What, exactly, do you not understand or not comprehend? This is a serious question, not meant to be sarcastic. Maybe we can have a dialogue.

Date: Mar 19, 2006

USM staff get to see you show up at lunch and leave at 3 on some days. They don't always see you on Friday. It is hard to comprehend sometimes, especially when they know what you get paid.

Date: Mar 19, 2006

well, example (and it's somewhat abstract): I am a food service worker who has been with the unversity for many years. I now work for Aramark but still feel a part of the USM family largely due to the efforts of many administrators and the Aramark folk. I am very happy with what has happened in our department.

I have noticed here a slant not of the highest thought concerning outsourcing but remarks concerning "Aramark hotdogs." Have you considered that we use Polk brand products. Products that are much higher quality than those of previous years? That is true of all of our operations - we are much better than before. But that doesn't seem to matter to you. We have better food, better facilities, more money for employees, better benefits, and have done so NOT increasing food prices more so than inflation or other state institutions.

I just can't comprehend how you don't comprehend how other in the community don't comprehend (that was fun huh!) your world view. It's not all bad all the time. Not all are evil or corrupted. We don't believe the boogie-man theories.

Date: Mar 19, 2006

kiln eagle wrote:

USM staff get to see you show up at lunch and leave at 3 on some days. They don't always see you on Friday. It is hard to comprehend sometimes, especially when they know what you get paid.

Well, I've just spent the last twelve hours, pretty much non-stop, at the computer, working on a project on a Sunday at home. (The only breaks I've taken have been my occasional joustings on this board.) Of course, none of the work I've done today, or on most weekends, would be visible to you or to others like you, but its results will be visible to my students and my superiors, who are the people who rate me and (in the case of my superiors) determine whether my pay is deserved or not. My students are satisfied with my performance, and so are my superiors. They're the folks I'm accountable to, not people like you, who know absolutely nothing about what I do or how much I accomplish in a week, month, or year.

Date: Mar 19, 2006

Staff wrote:

well, example (and it's somewhat abstract): I am a food service worker who has been with the unversity for many years. I now work for Aramark but still feel a part of the USM family largely due to the efforts of many administrators and the Aramark folk. I am very happy with what has happened in our department. I have noticed here a slant not of the highest thought concerning outsourcing but remarks concerning "Aramark hotdogs." Have you considered that we use Polk brand products. Products that are much higher quality than those of previous years? That is true of all of our operations - we are much better than before. But that doesn't seem to matter to you. We have better food, better facilities, more money for employees, better benefits, and have done so NOT increasing food prices more so than inflation or other state institutions. I just can't comprehend how you don't comprehend how other in the community don't comprehend (that was fun huh!) your world view. It's not all bad all the time. Not all are evil or corrupted. We don't believe the boogie-man theories.

Thanks, Staff! I'm not qualified to comment on the Aramak situation; maybe others can.

You mention that you are happy in your work; that's great. Apparently, though, many, many USM faculty are not happy with the leadership of Dr. Thames, as the massive no-confidence vote and the massive loss of faculty (and staff) indicate. A certain amount of griping is, of course, human nature, but many of us have never seen a university as demoralized as USM is thanks to the leadership of Dr. Thames. If the vast majority of folks in your unit were extremely unhappy, and if most of them agreed that the main reason for their unhappiness was the person in charge of the unit, and if the person in charge of the unit had demonstrably damaged the health of the unit during his tenure, wouldn't it make sense for that person's superiors to think about replacing him? That's all faculty (and many staff members) are asking for.

Date: Mar 19, 2006

Staff wrote:

well, example (and it's somewhat abstract): I am a food service worker who has been with the unversity for many years. I now work for Aramark but still feel a part of the USM family largely due to the efforts of many administrators and the Aramark folk. I am very happy with what has happened in our department. I have noticed here a slant not of the highest thought concerning outsourcing but remarks concerning "Aramark hotdogs." Have you considered that we use Polk brand products. Products that are much higher quality than those of previous years? That is true of all of our operations - we are much better than before. But that doesn't seem to matter to you. We have better food, better facilities, more money for employees, better benefits, and have done so NOT increasing food prices more so than inflation or other state institutions. I just can't comprehend how you don't comprehend how other in the community don't comprehend (that was fun huh!) your world view. It's not all bad all the time. Not all are evil or corrupted. We don't believe the boogie-man theories.

Staff-

I agree that not all is bad at USM, but faculty are pretty worn out -- not with the boogie man -- but with top management that is pretty inept. For example-SACS probation is a biggie. It may not sound all that big a deal, but to have all of USM on academic probation is a big time screw up. Very big. And then the faculty and many staff had to scramble like crazy to help correct this mess. The deeply flawed faculty and staff drug and alcohol policy that the faculty stopped in its tracks (even SFT knew it was nuts once he actually sat down and read it) would have affected you, and allowed you to be fired if you had a couple of beers on Saturday night and came to work on Sunday morning with even an insignificant amount of alcohol in your system (I am not suggesting you would do this). This administration has also failed to raise our endowment in any meaningful way (which is a critical job of the President), and this can directly affect all of us. The re-organization of the colleges and firing of all Deans without cause was also done without much thought to the consequences--it put our teacher education accreditation at grave risk (we are the second biggest such program in the state), and the NCATE visit this week is now far from a slam dunk. This is just a smidgeon of the problems we have faced. I can easily go on.

The overwhelming vote of no confidence in our President was not taken lightly, and didn't represent a small cadre of malcontents. It did mean something very important in the history of USM. The fact that the IHL Board, which was lead by an anti-faculty businessman, did not give a full contract extension to this President speaks volumes about the problems we faced. I am sorry if the Aramark cracks got under your skin--I do like the Agora and other projects Gregg Lassen put in place. But it got to the point here where many major moves by this administration ended up backfiring on us, and the trust level for faculty had worn very thin. The faculty concern at that point was that staff were about to get hosed also for no good reason.

No-not all people at USM are evil or corrupt. But the ineptitude and mean-spiritedness of many of our our top leaders has really harmed the university. If we seem whiny or you don't understand why these are grave problems, take a faculty member to coffee.

Date: Mar 19, 2006

Faculty wrote:

Staff- I agree that not all is bad at USM, but faculty are pretty worn out -- not with the boogie man -- but with top management that is pretty inept. For example-SACS probation is a biggie. It may not sound all that big a deal, but to have all of USM on academic probation is a big time screw up. Very big. And then the faculty and many staff had to scramble like crazy to help correct this mess. The deeply flawed faculty and staff drug and alcohol policy that the faculty stopped in its tracks (even SFT knew it was nuts once he actually sat down and read it) would have affected you, and allowed you to be fired if you had a couple of beers on Saturday night and came to work on Sunday morning with even an insignificant amount of alcohol in your system (I am not suggesting you would do this). This administration has also failed to raise our endowment in any meaningful way (which is a critical job of the President), and this can directly affect all of us. The re-organization of the colleges and firing of all Deans without cause was also done without much thought to the consequences--it put our teacher education accreditation at grave risk (we are the second biggest such program in the state), and the NCATE visit this week is now far from a slam dunk. This is just a smidgeon of the problems we have faced. I can easily go on. The overwhelming vote of no confidence in our President was not taken lightly, and didn't represent a small cadre of malcontents. It did mean something very important in the history of USM. The fact that the IHL Board, which was lead by an anti-faculty businessman, did not give a full contract extension to this President speaks volumes about the problems we faced. I am sorry if the Aramark cracks got under your skin--I do like the Agora and other projects Gregg Lassen put in place. But it got to the point here where many major moves by this administration ended up backfiring on us, and the trust level for faculty had worn very thin. The faculty concern at that point was that staff were about to get hosed also for no good reason. No-not all people at USM are evil or corrupt. But the ineptitude and mean-spiritedness of many of our our top leaders has really harmed the university. If we seem whiny or you don't understand why these are grave problems, take a faculty member to coffee.

Excellent post; thanks for taking the time to write it! I hope "staff" will respond and a real dialogue can continue.

Date: Mar 20, 2006

Yes, I do understand better. . . I really do. That was most well written (both).

I am trying to put together the disconnect with the community though. We scream that ya'll don't understand our perception and when it is explained, as invalid or valid as it may be, ya'll just become upset.

It's like you just don't care what the community thinks. I know that is childish, but it smacks of truth.

I did like your post. It has definately made me think.

Date: Mar 20, 2006

University professors have a public trust to promote logical thinking, yet if those who are (presumably) university professors try to exercise that trust on this board, those who are (presumably) members of the public label them elitist--and worse. Those proclaiming most loudly that the professors' job is to teach seem themselves to be the most unteachable.

Ironies abound . . . .

Date: Mar 20, 2006

Do not assume that all the community ill-will that is described on the board actually exists in the actual community. Think about it. How many "community" people even know about this board, much less post to it? I am a "community" person, and I am not hearing praise and support for Dr. Thames. Even people I talk to who are not especially against him, are plain worn-out with him. There is a sense that he has not been good for the school, and a desire to move past this present situation.

I believe these "community" posters are on this board as part of a deliberate campaign to distract, demoralize, and discourage as many anti-Thames people as they can. I do not believe they represent any sort of consensus in the larger Hattiesburg community whatsoever. I believe we are being trolled, in a very articulate and sophisticated manner. I will not speculate as to who these posters are, but I would encourage all of us to take their pronouncements as the slick propaganda as they are.

Date: Mar 20, 2006

LVN wrote:

Do not assume that all the community ill-will that is described on the board actually exists in the actual community. Think about it. How many "community" people even know about this board, much less post to it? I am a "community" person, and I am not hearing praise and support for Dr. Thames. Even people I talk to who are not especially against him, are plain worn-out with him. There is a sense that he has not been good for the school, and a desire to move past this present situation.

I believe these "community" posters are on this board as part of a deliberate campaign to distract, demoralize, and discourage as many anti-Thames people as they can. I do not believe they represent any sort of consensus in the larger Hattiesburg community whatsoever. I believe we are being trolled, in a very articulate and sophisticated manner. I will not speculate as to who these posters are, but I would encourage all of us to take their pronouncements as the slick propaganda as they are.

LVN--I believe you are absolutely correct about this. My experience with the community--both at church and when doing business--bear this out.

We must now let the b......s grind us down or divide us.

Date: Mar 20, 2006

Have you noticed that '2 out of 3" disappeared about the same time "kiln eagle" started posting? Interesting that!

Date: Mar 20, 2006

I had never seen 2 out of 3 before. kiln eagle has been around for a while.

Date: Mar 20, 2006

Joker wrote:

Have you noticed that '2 out of 3" disappeared about the same time "kiln eagle" started posting? Interesting that!

And I haven't gone anywhere. Some of us have to work for a living.

Date: Mar 20, 2006

Staff wrote:

I am trying to put together the disconnect with the community though. We scream that ya'll don't understand our perception and when it is explained, as invalid or valid as it may be, ya'll just become upset. It's like you just don't care what the community thinks.

Staff,

Thanks for your response. Can you explain a little more fully what you believe the community thinks? Can you provide some specific examples? If so, then maybe there can be a fruitful dialogue about community perceptions.

Thanks!