Are they Bizzy? Not these guys - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Mar 17, 2006

RE: Are they Bizzy? Not these guys

Date: Mar 17, 2006

Wanderer wrote:

Are you saying that all of the business college's faculty were attending the Faculty Senate meeting when I strolled through Greene? Come on now. That's not the case at all.

No one said all the Business faculty were at the Faculty Senate meeting. Some were, but that's not even the point. As others on the board have already said, faculty have many responsibilities and work long hours, sometimes in their offices and sometimes elsewhere. More than once the faculty posting on this board have volunteered to let wanderers like you shadow them for a day or two to find out what it's really like to work the hours they do. The funny thing is I can't remember any wanderer ever taking up the offer.

Date: Mar 17, 2006

Do we have to go here again. Every time a troll passes by we rehash the same old thing. I can't speak for the administrators, but I have not had a professor who was not doing double time and yet was always available to talk about student problems. This is getting boring.

Date: Mar 17, 2006

Actually, what I'm getting from here is that USM professors work tons of hours, but almost all of it is from their homes. I don't believe this is the case at other schools. I wonder if the psychology professors here also work at home mostly. Is that why they want the lighter teaching loads, so they can stay at home more?

Date: Mar 17, 2006

Wanderer,

It's about time you join your frat boy buddies over at Mugshots.

Date: Mar 17, 2006

You don't want Wanderer shadowing some in the CoB.

Date: Mar 17, 2006

if you want to see something peachy, stroll into Greene on a weeknight and watch all of the classes dismiss before 8:30, and some by much earlier than that. It's sweeeet.

If I am not mistaken, there are alot of classes taught by colleges other than CoB in JGH.

Also, when are faculty spposed to keep 8-5 hours? if so when do we start to get vacation time?

Date: Mar 17, 2006

I love all this talk about shadowing professors on this board. The Hattiesburg American did that recently when they sent a sports reporter to class for a day with the USM baseball player. What did the readers of the paper find out? That business professors did reviews and held class half the time they were supposed to. There was a long discussion of this earlier, I was there. Enough of this crap about working 70 hours of week. It's growing old.

The last poster is now asking since when are profs supposed to work 8-5 and wondering where his vacation time is?

Date: Mar 18, 2006

kiln wrote:

I love all this talk about shadowing professors on this board. The Hattiesburg American did that recently when they sent a sports reporter to class for a day with the USM baseball player. What did the readers of the paper find out? That business professors did reviews and held class half the time they were supposed to. There was a long discussion of this earlier, I was there. Enough of this crap about working 70 hours of week. It's growing old. The last poster is now asking since when are profs supposed to work 8-5 and wondering where his vacation time is?

What some of the faculty critics don't understand is how difficult it is in some fields to get anybody to even come to south Mississippi and Southern Mississippi. If it weren't for the PERS slaves being trapped, many of the programs on campus would have already collapsed by now.
These ignorant locals and students who are whining about faculty hours and work habits are lucky they have a semblance of a university at all. They know nothing about higher education.

If you can't give people money, facilities, and prestige, you had better try to make their daily lives pleasant or you will not have a reputable faculty. USM has lost half its faculty since the new administration took over. These people have to be replaced one rookie at a time. Meanwhile, adjuncts, instructors, and in house degree people are filling many of the vacancies. In some areas the impact on quality has been devastating. Those ignorant souls who are beating up on the faculty are getting what they deserve. They will be left with a fourth rate school that can never recover. The "I told you sos" are on the way.

Date: Mar 18, 2006

I told you so.

Date: Mar 18, 2006

I live near a state supported Technical College. Few faculty have doctorates. Faculty and staff wear name tags at all times and work 8 - 5...graduates learn immediately applicable job skills....not theories and concepts...not how to analyze information and data and make complex decisions. I think Hattiesburg would be happier if they converted USM to this model.

Date: Mar 18, 2006

Outside Observer wrote:

I live near a state supported Technical College. Few faculty have doctorates. Faculty and staff wear name tags at all times and work 8 - 5...graduates learn immediately applicable job skills....not theories and concepts...not how to analyze information and data and make complex decisions. I think Hattiesburg would be happier if they converted USM to this model.

I wouldn't be surprised if USM installed time clocks so that faculty members could punch in and punch out. This would help ensure that the taxpayer got exactly what he is paying for - but not a minute more. Locking the doors to he buildings at 5:00 PM each afternoon and not reopening them until 8:00 AM the next morning would help too. Weekend entrance to the buildings forbidden except for the cleaning crew.

Date: Mar 18, 2006

kiln wrote:

I was there. Enough of this crap about working 70 hours of week. It's growing old.

You sound more like a mole than a troll, sir.

Date: Mar 18, 2006

Wanderer

I do not need to defend any faculty member anymore than I have to defend employees of Mississippi power or of any other employer in Mississippi. Employees of Mississippi power go about their work day in a manner similar to employees of Georgia power. There are industry norms that reflect the nature of the business and the job requirements of the industry. If you had bothered to check, you would find that USM faculty work under the same conditions and in a similar manner to faculty at Ole Miss and State and the preponderance of faculty at other Universities. If you feel the need to criticize faculty, you would sound more creditable if you broadened your field of universities. If you feel the need to denigrate faculty at USM, then having access to this Board gives you a great and free opportunity. The people you are criticizing paid for the medium you use to make your comments. What other group of employees pay out of their own pockets to have a Board that is open to you to make your critiques? There are none. You might want to reflect on this fact when you make your posts that have as an underlying premise that USM faculty are unique compared to faculty in other Mississippi universities or universities across the US.

Perhaps this is an opportunity for you to broaden your horizons to at least the state of Mississippi and maybe beyond. If you goal in posting is/was to get defensive responses, you succeeded. Some posters took the bait. Some will continue to take bait. It is equivalent to me making comments about your mother, it likely would upset you. But it serves no purpose and is in bad taste.

Date: Mar 18, 2006

There are several business students who work at the Dome. I saw two of them walking together through Greene Hall yesterday before this thread popped up. I don't know what they were doing, but it seems strange upon reflection. I was on my way to the restroom when I saw them, and I noticed they were making some sort of notes. I though maybe it had to do with the ongoing construction, but now I have to wonder if they weren't taking roll.

Date: Mar 18, 2006

A friend of mine has a saying that applies here: "If you have the reputation for getting up early, you can afford to sleep late a lot of days."

In this instance, many, many USM profs do not darken the doors of their respective buildings except to teach and (possibly) hold a minimal number of office hours. While that may be an acceptable manner of action at other universities, it should be evident to all that USM isn't like other universities. Operating in a manner that would be acceptable at other universities just won't work here. Through the past 3-4 years, the reputation of USM has been tarnished by a number of factors. One factor is the obvious poor leadership of Shelby Thames. Another factor that adds to the bad rap is the public reaction of SOME faculty through public complaint or, as in this case, abandonment of the "on-the-spot" job at the first available opportunity. It may be the norm to do quite a bit of work at home at other universities, but those universities aren't located in a city where the citizens detest faculty or in a state where education is resented. Those schools aren't standing in the spotlight created by their presidents' poor decisions and bad actions.

Fair or not, right or wrong, for good or ill, it would behoove USM faculty to start making a show of everything we do. We should always meet our classes and never cancel them. We should be on campus every day of the five day "work week" and should stay for a considerable amount of time each day. We should devise a way to publicize our own research and development activities. We should be the model of what our community wants in a faculty -- at least for a while, until the spotlight leaves us.

Having empty offices and empty buildings may be acceptable at UM or MSU, but it gives Thames ammunition to use against us. If he is sending student spies around, then this is a truly disturbing development.

Date: Mar 18, 2006

He has to use student spies...the Kentucky Cabal and associates are gone!

Date: Mar 18, 2006

The problem at USM is not the faculty (although of course there may be some individual faculty members who fail to live up to their responsibilities, as will be true in any large organization). Before the advent of Shelby Thames, USM had an excellent regional and even national reputation, especially in certain fields (such as English). During the tenure of Shelby Thames, the reputation of the university has fallen (as even the USN&WR rankings confirm), and many of the faculty who brought national distinction to USM have left or have been driven away. Shelby Thames has brought national and even international attention to USM in the worst possible ways, and in the process he has also tarnished the reputation of the whole state of Mississippi. It is not the USM faculty who have accomplished these feats; it is Shelby Thames, and Shelby Thames alone (with some help from his henchcrew).

Date: Mar 18, 2006

It may be the norm to do quite a bit of work at home at other universities, but those universities aren't located in a city where the citizens detest faculty or in a state where education is resented.

This is one of the saddest statements I've read on the board, and I'm afraid its one of the truest. In many other places, faculty are valued by the community--for their contributions to its intellectual vigor, for the role of their families in the schools and churches, and for the economic impact their household budgets have on the area. That certainly is the case where I am now.

Sad. Sad. Sad.

Date: Mar 18, 2006

One Size Fits All

Collectively, what you say has an element of truth. However, we do not act collectively, and faculty would be less inclined in that regard than most. On an individual basis, I have to publish in competition with the best faculty at other universities where they have more resources and teach less. No whine, it is a fact I live with. Since my salary as a full professor is the entry level salary at many universities, there are opportunities to move. The reasons to stay prior to SFT were many including geographic location, the city of Hattiesburg, the quality of my fellow faculty, and an all around pleasant environment. Post SFT, all of the above have mostly disappeared. Now faculty are under attack by administration and the community. I have no reason to indulge these critics in their goofiness. My energy is better spent making sure that the students I teach leave with sufficient knowledge and training to get good jobs or continue their education in graduate school, and to publish in peer reviewed journals. If the goofiness continues and conditions get worse, I will go in the market and get a job at a higher salary somewhere else. Many of the young faculty that are hired come to USM because there are older faculty like me that will provide the environment that will help make them successful. This cadre of older productive faculty is smaller because of retirement and an exodus to other jobs. Many of the real stars have already left and their departments have been weakened. People that fit in my category (not a star, but a productive journeyman) will continue to leave or retire.

If current faculty, including me, did not have the interests of their department, college, and university at heart, they would collect the silly comments made by SFT and his supporters that post here and share them with each faculty job candidate that applies to USM. We would make it plain, here is what the community will think of you if you come to USM and here is how the Administration will try to force you to adhere to the USM unique rules of faculty governance. (To translated this so it is clear to all posters, it tells the candidate that while other universities will treat you with respect, we will treat you with contemp). Fortunately for the university and the students, current faculty put the best light they can on the situation because they hope (some believe) that once SFT is gone, USM will once again become a real university.

I do not know what the betting line would be on the recovery of USM, but I think the odds of it happening are going down. The odds are going down, not because the enemies of USM have grown or increased their power, but because so many of the supporters of USM are aiding and abetting in its demise. Not only do these supporters lack good sense and reasoning ability, they also go about their destruction of USM with great enthusiasm. No matter what faculty do, these folks will complain. If they cannot find something to complain about, they will make it up. USM has battled the Board and the backers of State and Ole Miss for many years and have made substantial gains to improve the university. Ironically, it is not State or Ole Miss that are destroying USM; it is the administration and its supporters. The productive faculty that the administration and its supporters dislike (often hate) can and will leave. SFT will leave also. The supporters will be left with the trash heap they helped create.

Date: Mar 18, 2006

Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary wrote:

kiln wrote: I was there. Enough of this crap about working 70 hours of week. It's growing old. You sound more like a mole than a troll, sir.

You, sir, captured the wrong part of my statement. "I was there" means that "I was there participating in the thread" about the half classes in business.

Do faculty at Florida or Georgia all work at home, alone? Or, do they discuss ideas together and work on campus? My guess is they work in the same area of their campuses, not at home alone. All that is happening as USM is people hanging out and home or wherever with their wives and families on the state's dime. It's getting really old for those of us paying the bill.

Date: Mar 18, 2006

kiln eagle wrote:

Do faculty at Florida or Georgia all work at home, alone? Or, do they discuss ideas together and work on campus? My guess is they work in the same area of their campuses, not at home alone. All that is happening as USM is people hanging out and home or wherever with their wives and families on the state's dime. It's getting really old for those of us paying the bill.

From my own experience and observations, the best faculty spend much of their time on campus (teaching classes, meeting with students, serving on committees, performing administrative duties, etc.), but they also spend some of their most PRODUCTIVE time at home (sitting at their computers, with their books or data at hand, doing their research, writing their articles, planning their lessons, writing their tests, grading their papers, etc., etc., etc.). If you think that the surest guarantee of productivity is chaining a faculty to his office desk from 8-5, you are very sadly mistaken.

You, kiln, don't seem to address the main point made many times on this board: USM once HAD a fine reputation because of its faculty; it now HAS a poor reputation thanks to Shelby Thames. Why are you so concerned with faculty conduct when the obvious problem at USM is Shelby Thames? The faculty had been doing their jobs well; it is Shelby who has been the major incompetent on your campus. Why are you not (apparently) concerned with all the evidence of Shelby's peculiar brand of "productivity"? (I.e., producing a SACS mess, producing a tier drop, producing a loss of half of the faculty, producing a major drop in the university's reputation, etc., etc., etc.)

Date: Mar 18, 2006

Cossack,

I agree with your post. In a sense, I am simply playing Devil's Advocate. This thread presents a good opportunity for a real discussion rather than for back-and-forth yah-yah arguments that have ruled the board as of late.

What I am driving at is that what works at University X (a normal university) will not presently work at USM. It worked ten years ago, and it may work again in the future. Right now, USM is far from a normal university. I completely understand that the creative research process may be undertaken in the office, at home, in a library, on the beach, or in a park. Wherever an individual is most productive, that's where he or she should work on research.

Imagine, if you will, that SFT installed punchclocks at USM. Imagine that all USM faculty punched the clock and logged their "requisite" hours on campus at USM. Of course, this would not begin to capture all of the hours that faculty work, because there would be no timeclock at their respective homes, libraries, etc., to measure hours worked on weekends, nights, holidays, etc. IF every faculty member recorded 40 hours per week on the clock, would SFT be able to talk about "a day's work for a day's pay"? I don't think so.

I am not advocating the installation of punch clocks. On the contrary, I agree that faculty should generally work where they are most productive. By retreating to alternative locations (as is their right), some faculty open the door for such unwarranted criticism from SFT. While it may be an individual faculty member's right to work at home for the vast majority of his or her work hours per week (be it 40 or 60 or 100), the decision to work at home may not be the right decision to make at present.

The following story may better relate my position: Suppose a dean has a disgruntled faculty member who has a reputation for complaining about being denied resources (computer support, etc.) and being unfairly evaluated by administrators. What should the dean do? If I were dean, i would make sure that faculty member had the support (within reason) that others receive and that his or her evaluations were as fair and transparent as possible. In other words, as dean I would remove the opportunity for complaining. If the individual continued to complain, I could then say with a clear conscience that the complaints were baseless.

What can faculty do to remove SFT's ammunition? Notice that this is a very different question than "Should faculty have to do anything to remove SFT's ammunition?"

Date: Mar 18, 2006

Sorry: I should have typed "chaining a faculty member to his desk . . . ."

Date: Mar 18, 2006

kiln eagle wrote,

Do faculty at Florida or Georgia all work at home, alone? Or, do they discuss ideas together and work on campus? My guess is they work in the same area of their campuses, not at home alone. All that is happening as USM is people hanging out and home or wherever with their wives and families on the state's dime. It's getting really old for those of us paying the bill.

The answer to your question is yes, many work at home at both of these institutions. More over, faculty at Georgia and Florida are much less accessible to students even if they are in their offices. Unlike at USM where a student can drop by a faculty member's office without an appointment, at the two schools you mention a faculty member will tell you to make an appointment to see him/her. In my discipline, the newly hired faculty at Georgia and Florida have extremely hire tenure (and 3rd year review) hurdles. Probably 1 out of 4 makes it. Hence, new faculty spend as small amount of time as possible with students since it takes time away from publishing which is what gets them raises and tenure. This has been pointed out before and you have chosen to ignore it. You are under an illusion that USM is very different from other major state universities in how faculty work and interact with students. It is not that different, but there is some difference and it is in the opposite direction of what you perceive. Faculty are more available to students at USM than at SEC schools, at ACC schools, or Big Ten schools.

You can continue to be critical and maintain your views even though there is not factual support. Much of the criticism of USM faculty is based on emotion and not facts. Because of the reality of markets and the historical precedence in universities, what you are hoping for will not happen at any university including USM. As I noted before on this Board, you are fortunate that faculty pay to have this forum available for you to criticize them. Notice that the administration does not provide you with such a forum.

Date: Mar 18, 2006

What I want is someone from business to come on here and tell us all what percentage of your faculty are really doing research. Will someone do that? For the portion that is not doing, would you also please describe what they are doing? I have seen references on this board to Dean Doty's "toadies." Please take some time and tell us all what "shadowing them" for a day would be like.

Date: Mar 18, 2006

You are under an illusion that USM is very different from other major state universities in how faculty work and interact with students. It is not that different, but there is some difference and it is in the opposite direction of what you perceive. Faculty are more available to students at USM than at SEC schools, at ACC schools, or Big Ten schools.

The idea that USM should be compared to SEC schools, ACC schools, Big Ten schools, or any other major state universities is a fallacy. USM has neither the resources nor the positioning to compete with those types of schools. In essence, those schools are equivalent to baseball's major league. USM is a AAA ballclub at best. USM has some high quality programs and individuals in its ranks. As is the case in the movie "Bull Durham," there is a dubious distinction to being the best at something at the minor league level. What everyone wants is to play in the big leagues, but there are only so many spots on the big league rosters...some spend their whole careers in the minors, which, if your temperament is suited for it, isn't such a bad thing. You get to do what you love, even if you don't make the big bucks. What I'm hearing here is that a minor league ballclub wants to be measured by major league standards and to receive major league benefits. Do you really want that? Do you want to be required to publish your work in top-level (by major league standards) outlets just to maintain your position?

USM is a different type of school. USM is and has always been a teaching institution first and foremost. USM teachers should be more accessible to students. USM students should have smaller class sizes, more terminally qualified instructors rather than grad students, and more one on one time. For those teachers who do not like this, then publish your way to the major league.

Date: Mar 18, 2006

3rd Base Coach wrote:

You are under an illusion that USM is very different from other major state universities in how faculty work and interact with students. It is not that different, but there is some difference and it is in the opposite direction of what you perceive. Faculty are more available to students at USM than at SEC schools, at ACC schools, or Big Ten schools. The idea that USM should be compared to SEC schools, ACC schools, Big Ten schools, or any other major state universities is a fallacy. USM has neither the resources nor the positioning to compete with those types of schools. In essence, those schools are equivalent to baseball's major league. USM is a AAA ballclub at best. USM has some high quality programs and individuals in its ranks. As is the case in the movie "Bull Durham," there is a dubious distinction to being the best at something at the minor league level. What everyone wants is to play in the big leagues, but there are only so many spots on the big league rosters...some spend their whole careers in the minors, which, if your temperament is suited for it, isn't such a bad thing. You get to do what you love, even if you don't make the big bucks. What I'm hearing here is that a minor league ballclub wants to be measured by major league standards and to receive major league benefits. Do you really want that? Do you want to be required to publish your work in top-level (by major league standards) outlets just to maintain your position? USM is a different type of school. USM is and has always been a teaching institution first and foremost. USM teachers should be more accessible to students. USM students should have smaller class sizes, more terminally qualified instructors rather than grad students, and more one on one time. For those teachers who do not like this, then publish your way to the major league.

Please send your post to SFT. Even minor league clubs have balls, gloves and bats.

Date: Mar 18, 2006

What I want is someone from business to come on here and tell us all what percentage of your faculty are really doing research. Will someone do that? For the portion that is not doing, would you also please describe what they are doing? I have seen references on this board to Dean Doty's "toadies." Please take some time and tell us all what "shadowing them" for a day would be like.

In my department, 92% of the faculty are research active as defined by AACSB standards. The reason that several faculty could resign and move to other schools for more money is due to their productivity. I do not know about shadowing people for a day since it is not very useful in gauging productivity for a faculty member. For people with your mentality, it is about punching a time clock, which is a poor measure of productivity by which to gauge faculty. This has been pointed out many times on this board to posters who have the time clock mentality. It is not the measure used in the academic market and is not what universities look at when they hire away faculty from USM for more money. If you are truly interested in the welfare of USM, it is not a measure you should be using. Given your persistence in applying this measure, I do not think you care much about USM. I suspect that you have an emotional interest in denigrating faculty or you are being manipulated by someone who wants to punish faculty. The sad part is, if posters such as you actually were successful in implementing a time clock system, it would finish destroying the university you claim to support. USM would become a laughing stock. The only faculty that USM could hire would be those that no other university wanted. In today's market, those hires would be mostly faculty of foreign extraction with very poor English skills.

It is apparent that there is no logic or reasoning that will change the mind the posters who want to pound on USM faculty. Many of us have taken the comments that have been critical of USM faculty seriously and responded in a serious way. I will not waste my time responding any more. I hope that others ignore you also. USM faculty, through the AAUP, provides the support for this Board. If you want to have a board to blast faculty, you may want to get your own started. Might I suggest a name for your Board, WE-HATE-USM-FACULTY .

Date: Mar 18, 2006

Cossack--i think you've figured it out. we don't need to justify ourselves. i read these periodical posts and smile. i know what i do, know how hard i work, and know (and am proud of) the results of my work (students and research). if others don't understand or appreciate, then i am sorry for them, but that's life.