Will SACS find the QEP sufficient? - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Feb 24, 2006

Will SACS find the QEP sufficient?

Date: Feb 24, 2006

Are the services provided in this program available on the Gulf Coast?

Date: Feb 24, 2006

coastliner wrote:

Are the services provided in this program available on the Gulf Coast?

According to page 1 of the document provided to SACS, yes.

Date: Feb 24, 2006

My word! The very idea of improving competency in writing in a capstone course. Writing skills should be taught in freshman courses and honed and reinforced in later courses. Is USM rewriting the definition of "capstone?" It sounds like the "improving competency in writing" component was tossed as an afterthought solely for the purpose of satisfying SACS rather than for educating the student. If students don't have senior-level writing skills by the time they take a capstone course, something is very, very wrong here.

Date: Feb 24, 2006

M.A., I daresay plenty of USM departments didn't require a boatload of writing (or writing with any degree of competency) in a "capstone" course. (In fairness, I could see how chemistry majors might be a fuzz more concerned with other things by that stage in their curricula.) For that matter, how many departments didn't really have a "capstone" course at all?

With progressively lower admission standards & deteriorating entrance test scores, it probably is incumbent on an institution -- particularly a 4th tier institution -- to try to improve writing skills across the curriculum.

(Personally, I think scientific literacy across the curriculum would be a worthy goal, but considering how many idots get degrees without learning how to spell or salt & pepper their prose with punctuation marks, writing is probably a better starting point...)

Date: Feb 24, 2006

Since I have heard representatives from the English Department state that it is not the English Department's job to teach students how to write, I propose that a new department, the Department of Writing, be formed. It would convey no degrees nor would the faculty have research requirements, only teaching duties. The Department of Writing would teach all freshman comp classes. English faculty would be left to teach only lit/creative writing/other classes.

Date: Feb 25, 2006

Moneymaker, Shaken wrote:

I propose that a new department, the Department of Writing

There is a grammar error in the "QEP to improve writing" announcement. It should have read "... these new courses..." If your proposed "Department of Writing" is established, I propose that the courses be taught by someone not involved in preparing or proofing that announcement. One of my students might take on the job.

Respectfully submitted,

6th Grade Teacher of Proper Grammar

Date: Feb 25, 2006

Moneymaker, Shaken wrote:

Since I have heard representatives from the English Department state that it is not the English Department's job to teach students how to write, I propose that a new department, the Department of Writing, be formed. It would convey no degrees nor would the faculty have research requirements, only teaching duties. The Department of Writing would teach all freshman comp classes. English faculty would be left to teach only lit/creative writing/other classes.

Maybe we should hire an Assistant to the President for Planning, Articulation, Accreditation and Writing.

Date: Feb 27, 2006

Moneymaker, Shaken wrote:

Since I have heard representatives from the English Department state that it is not the English Department's job to teach students how to write, I propose that a new department, the Department of Writing, be formed. It would convey no degrees nor would the faculty have research requirements, only teaching duties. The Department of Writing would teach all freshman comp classes. English faculty would be left to teach only lit/creative writing/other classes.

I'm not sure what representatives said this, or in what context. If the context somehow relegated a university department of English down to a basic skills center, however, I can predict the response would be roughly similar to someone's in COB who was told that they existed to teach students how to balance their checkbooks. I know that I certainly make it a priority to hone writing skills--ask anyone who has taken a course with me!--and I know from serving on the departmental personnel committee that most of us take student writing very seriously indeed.

Jameela

Date: Feb 27, 2006

And what, pray tell, will be eliminated from the existing capstone courses so that these professors can include a component what should have been covered in the various English/writing intensive courses the student has been enrolled in?

Date: Feb 27, 2006

astonished wrote:

And what, pray tell, will be eliminated from the existing capstone courses so that these professors can include a component what should have been covered in the various English/writing intensive courses the student has been enrolled in?

oops!!! should have said "include a component that should have been covered". Hmm - maybe that is what the "preview post" button is supposed to be used for :)

Date: Mar 1, 2006

Just to add, since no one is ever done with learning to write more clearly and graciously, I find the inclusion of a writing skills component in a capstone course to go without saying. Some people still seem to be thinking of writing merely as a basic skill learned in the lower grades or perhaps as a freshman rite of passage, but writing well is a lifelong goal. JL

Date: Mar 1, 2006

Jameela Lares wrote:

Just to add, since no one is ever done with learning to write more clearly and graciously, I find the inclusion of a writing skills component in a capstone course to go without saying. Some people still seem to be thinking of writing merely as a basic skill learned in the lower grades or perhaps as a freshman rite of passage, but writing well is a lifelong goal. JL

That is a very good point!

Date: Mar 1, 2006

I have heard the comment "it was not the role of the English Department to teach writing", and wondered if it represented the philosophy of that department. We all know that the lack of writing (and speaking) skills is another signal of the decline in education standards in the country. From the first grade through twelve the pattern has been to include more and more that "should be taught" piled on top of what is taught. Hence, everything has less emphasis including learning language skills.

Added to that diluting effect, the attempts to promote self-esteem rather than education has reduced the pressure to perform. Add to that the reluctance to physically kick someone's butt when misbehaving, and a lever for motivation has been removed. Then we have the issue of Ebonics where Pidgin English is established as appropriate.

I can see why university professors in English would throw up there hands and say, "we are not going to fight this silliness alone” Likewise, faculty in other disciplines grow weary of reading crap and go to multiple choice or short answers.

Typical of universities, the solution is to create a solution with someone else's time and money. If the university were serious about addressing the problem, it would ask for special resources from the state to address the problem. It would invest in computers and programs that are very useful in pointing out many of the deficiencies for students with suggestions for correcting the error. It also would hire instructors who were tasked only with addressing this issue, and it would NOT put them under an academic unit. Through tests, one could evaluate the progress of students. Finally, this should be done early in the student's program before they can claim that they have all of the requirements and they only need to get through the writing hurdle.

Date: Mar 1, 2006

Thanks, Cossack, for your thoughtful and sympathetic post.

Just to clarify, what has been called "Ebonics" is better known as African-American Vernacular English, a variety of native English, not Pidgin-with-a-capital P--i.e., a lingua franca variety spoken in Africa and now a textual language as well--and not a pidgin-with-a-small-p, i.e., a simplified version of someone else's language. Googling will turn up such comments as this one from Wikipedia:

"AAVE is often erroneously perceived by members of mainstream American society as indicating low intelligence or educational attainment. Furthermore, as with many other nonstandard dialects and especially creoles, AAVE sometimes has been called "lazy" or "bad" English by those who do not understand creolization or the role of null phonemes. Such appraisals also may be due in part to AAVE's use of aspect for tense in some cases. [I.e., describing time as punctative or durative.] Some challenge whether AAVE should be considered a valid form of English at all. However, among linguists there is no such controversy, since AAVE, like all dialects, shows consistent internal logic and structure."

I've been thinking a lot about language and langauge attitudes, since my lecture last night at the Institute of Historical Research was on divergent religious discourse in the English Restoration.

Cheers,

Jameela

Date: Mar 1, 2006

When English instructors say it's not their job to teach writing, they mean that it's not their job to teach college students to write a complete sentence with a subject and a verb. College instructors are finding themselves with the job of teaching fourth-grade skills. It's very frustrating. What happened to these students during the twelve years before we got them?

For what's it's worth, we have a generation of students who text and email, and who don't read. If you don't read, you can't write.

Date: Mar 1, 2006

Professor Lares,

Once again I am at a disadvantage by discussing issues that are far removed from my training and research. That said, I will make some comments based on my experience. I came out of a low-income household in a rural area with less than stellar language skills. I guess you could say I spoke red neckonics. I wrote a little better, but had a long way to go in communication skills. I do know that groups who are isolated will end up with language skills that are less formal and sloppy. These cases of language evolution are interesting to study, and in many instances are benign in their effect on those who use these languages.

My concern is the effect of using an evolved language; in combination with remaining unaware of how to use a major language properly, impacts the development of human capital. Many issues and concepts in a modern society require language skills over and above social interaction with one's homeboys and girls. Heavy thinking requires language skills that are sufficiently sophisticated to express ideas that are abstract and/or complicated. Consequently, I have little tolerance for those who do not push our students to become proficient in the English language. If the students do not have these skills, and are not pushed to acquire them, we as educators are adding to their handicap. For a student to be competitive in the job market where the requirements are mental ability rather than physical ability, they must have the language skills.

Date: Mar 1, 2006

Cossack wrote:

My concern is the effect of using an evolved language; in combination with remaining unaware of how to use a major language properly, impacts the development of human capital. Many issues and concepts in a modern society require language skills over and above social interaction with one's homeboys and girls. Heavy thinking requires language skills that are sufficiently sophisticated to express ideas that are abstract and/or complicated. ....For a student to be competitive in the job market where the requirements are mental ability rather than physical ability, they must have the language skills.

Yea, verily! Thank you for eloquently expressing what I and many other educators strongly believe, but are unable to publicly affirm for fear of violating the canons of academic political correctness. Ebonics and other derivative tongues may be perfectly acceptable as second languages and effective for communicating within cultural sub-groups, but they just don't wash in the college classroom or in society at large.

Date: Mar 1, 2006

Where are secondary english teachers educated?

Date: Mar 1, 2006

Jameela Lares wrote:

I find the inclusion of a writing skills component in a capstone course to go without saying. Some people still seem to be thinking of writing merely as a basic skill learned in the lower grades or perhaps as a freshman rite of passage, but writing well is a lifelong goal.

College students who get to the 'capstone' stage without being to read or write the king's English will probably be interested mostly in writing their ticket out of here

Date: Mar 3, 2006

Cossack wrote:

My concern is the effect of using an evolved language; in combination with remaining unaware of how to use a major language properly, impacts the development of human capital. Many issues and concepts in a modern society require language skills over and above social interaction with one's homeboys and girls. Heavy thinking requires language skills that are sufficiently sophisticated to express ideas that are abstract and/or complicated. Consequently, I have little tolerance for those who do not push our students to become proficient in the English language. If the students do not have these skills, and are not pushed to acquire them, we as educators are adding to their handicap. For a student to be competitive in the job market where the requirements are mental ability rather than physical ability, they must have the language skills.

Hi, Cossack,

This post will be short, as I'm just back from England and plowing through the board with my second cup of coffee. I am largely in agreement with you about the social implications of a restricted vs. an elaborated code. I was just making a point about linguistic terminology.

JL

Date: Mar 3, 2006

Professor Lares,

Welcome back, hopefully with your belongings. Since I still struggle with writing in English, I know little about various subsets or offshoots of English. Nonetheless, the evolution of language is as interesting as the evolution of culture. Although there likely is interaction between the two.