C.L.--Khayat's Letter - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Feb 18, 2006

C.L.--Khayat's Letter

Date: Feb 18, 2006

Kudos to Ole Miss in bringing in these people as guest speakers. Just reminds me as well of one of the things we have lost while under Thames, the University Honors Forum. The Forum used to bring interesting speakers as well, Nobel laureates, prime ministers, great scientists, literary figures and musicians. The forum was open to the public. This was a great service that USM needs to reinstate post Thames.

On second thought, let’s just pay administrators more and pave something ; -)

Date: Feb 18, 2006

Mourning the loss of the Honors College Forum wrote:

The Forum used to bring interesting speakers as well, Nobel laureates, prime ministers, great scientists, literary figures and musicians. The forum was open to the public. This was a great service that USM needs to reinstate

Everything that happens in Hattiesburg stays in Hattiesburg. And we don't want no outside scholars, prime ministers, great scientists, literary figures or musicians interfering with our insularism.

Date: Feb 18, 2006

I didn't know they cut HON 321 and HON 322. Why? The Honors College is growing like a weed!!!!!! (A good weed).

Date: Feb 18, 2006

Get used to it & get over it! This is precisely how the board of trustees envisions the state's "system" of higher education. The University of Mississippi is going to be the flagship of the system when it comes to liberal arts, and increasingly business & fine arts. Mississippi State University is the land grant -- no changing that -- with the lead in engineering & the "hands-on" professions. USM has been relegated to a polytechnic, since somewhere over the last decade folks at USM forgot its origins as a normal college. MSU is rapidly stealing the higher profile education programs from USM & not even the faculty in CoEP have said a mild word about it. (Right now, if one aspires to be a community college administrator, State is the university to attend. And they aggressively promote it.)

I've said it before here & I suspect I'll say it again: The University of Southern Mississippi has lost whatever consensus it had about it's mission, self-concept & vision. And that has cost it dearly.

USM is the "blue collar" university for the State of Mississippi, a place for elementary education majors, "engineering technology" paraprofessional majors & of course folks who want to mix paint. This is not entirely bad if folks can get their minds & hearts around the concept, because "blue collar" is not a bad thing.

Under AKL, yes, USM "knew its place." In fact, USM knew its place well enough to chisel out niches of excellence within that "place." Now, USM doesn't know its place. It has no concept of where it needs to be, where it needs to go, or how to get there.

So paving streets is about the only thing to do.

One of the things that I see as SFT's biggest mistakes is that he hasn't been straightforward with a vision for USM. If the vision is as a blue collar polytechnic, then for chrissakes say so. Turn it into a worthy vision. Get people to buy into the concept.

But I still think the biggest mistake as been to forget that USM began as the Mississippi Normal College. It could have been one of the best ed schools in the country -- elementary, secondary, art, science & math, you name it. Seriously. That ain't the case these days. Also seriously.

Kudos to the University of Mississippi for its programs & a tip of the fedora to Bobby Khayat, who knows that manipulating external and internal perceptions is a major component of establishing excellence. (People who believe that they work in a system that is devoted to excellence tend to rise to the occaision.)

Date: Feb 18, 2006

thanks for posting that letter. it was really funny. it reminded me of the old story about the chimp beating its chest in order to look like a gorilla. the next time a friend at um kids me about being at a world-class school, i can now throw back "one of America's great public universities."

Date: Feb 18, 2006

Invictus wrote:

I've said it before here & I suspect I'll say it again: The University of Southern Mississippi has lost whatever consensus it had about it's mission, self-concept & vision. And that has cost it dearly. . . . ..

Under AKL, yes, USM "knew its place." In fact, USM knew its place well enough to chisel out niches of excellence within that "place." Now, USM doesn't know its place. It has no concept of where it needs to be, where it needs to go, or how to get there.

So paving streets is about the only thing to do.

One of the things that I see as SFT's biggest mistakes is that he hasn't been straightforward with a vision for USM. If the vision is as a blue collar polytechnic, then for chrissakes say so. Turn it into a worthy vision. Get people to buy into the concept.

But I still think the biggest mistake as been to forget that USM began as the Mississippi Normal College. It could have been one of the best ed schools in the country -- elementary, secondary, art, science & math, you name it. Seriously. That ain't the case these days. Also seriously.

These are good points. One of Horace Fleming's notable acts was to convene "the committee on the future of the university." It built a strong consensus around an ambitious and workable vision for USM. That's all been lost, much to the detriment of the university.

Oxford's attracting more high culture. The great baritone Thomas Hampson, willl be performing in Oxford, March 21st as part of the Library of Congress's "Song of America" Tour. Well worth the drive and hotel stay.

Date: Feb 18, 2006

i have to agree with invictus's assessment of USM. sadly. what Lucas was able to build in 20 years has been damaged (if not worse) in 10.

although i agree with qwerty that fleming had a noble attempt at a vision, there wasn't enough of a consensus around it or the process. it was too political--the vision reflected too much, from the academic side, the particular academics on the committee. these people were unable to speak for the academic side of the house as a whole. as a consequence, the "premier" programs that were listed in the vision reflected the disciplinary affiliation of those on the committee. this is a problem the university has had every time since then the vision/mission statements get revised. there was as a sense we had to list "premier" programs, a questionable assumption in itself, and then it was a battle politically to get your department in the list. and in fleming's case, a member of the committee told me the non-academics didn't buy in much at all.

and despite all this, a number of programs i'm familiar with are much better in all objective measures (quality of faculty, quality of students, quality of research, and the like) than 20 years ago when i came here. but the university's overall reputation is a mess.

Date: Feb 18, 2006

I doubt if the current faculty will ever "get over it". Most will just move on physically as PERS does its work. Many of the younger faculty will move on to other places. A number of depts. are using this as a recruiting device, come to USM and we'll help you do good so you can leave. Those that stay will be the 20 hour per week, stuck at associate professor types. Kind of like the faculty, circa 1978. The bad part is that IHL has mucked up USM with little or no positive impact anywhere else. The "old" USM used to get better because they spent their money well. MU and MSU never get any better because they don't know how to get better, probably never will. At least the scholarship money for out-of-state students in other states is continually getting better so our brighter students can migrate somewhere other than Millsaps to get a good education.

Date: Feb 18, 2006

Invictus wrote:

Get used to it & get over it! This is precisely how the board of trustees envisions the state's "system" of higher education. <CUT> USM has been relegated to a polytechnic, since somewhere over the last decade folks at USM forgot its origins as a normal college.

<CUT>

One of the things that I see as SFT's biggest mistakes is that he hasn't been straightforward with a vision for USM. If the vision is as a blue collar polytechnic, then for chrissakes say so. Turn it into a worthy vision. Get people to buy into the concept. But I still think the biggest mistake as been to forget that USM began as the Mississippi Normal College. It could have been one of the best ed schools in the country -- elementary, secondary, art, science & math, you name it. Seriously. That ain't the case these days. Also seriously. Kudos to the University of Mississippi for its programs & a tip of the fedora to Bobby Khayat, who knows that manipulating external and internal perceptions is a major component of establishing excellence. (People who believe that they work in a system that is devoted to excellence tend to rise to the occaision.)

-------

These are great points, Invictus.  However, I feel that your point about a vision from SFT is incorrect. SFT sold a vision to the local politicos and IHL. It was nothing more than playing the grant game, and grabbing earmarks as a means to get bigger and better. He is quite passionate about "Economic Development", and has put our money where his mouth is. Make no mistake, there has been a lot of this vision coming out of the dome.

This has turned into what you would expect. Total incoherency. Chasing money, without any concern for whether it was right for the Univ. or not.  All of the resources are sucked into the dome, with the grant getters left to pedal faster. After a while of begging to get some of those resources back into the educational programs, the grant folks simply said, "Enough!" And you are left with a structure that can't support itself.

This goes back to a point I have always made. SFT has been here his entire life. He has attempted to make the Univ. into the only thing he knows, and that is his own program. Unfortunately, he refuses to see that universities are diverse places, with education as a real mission. Universities are not economic developers.

That is why his hire has failed. He has never thought about really, honestly building an endowment. He has generally hired sycophants and boot-lickers who are weak leaders and clueless administrators. Reaction is the name of the game. I'm sure things are being done around his initiatives, but really, has anyone in the last year or so even heard of them? It is no surprise that UM and MSU have filled the gaps. They have diverse administrations with experience from univ. all over the country.

I agree with you, however, on so many levels. It is time to accept this. This school has been wounded mortally I'm afraid.  It will slowly slide into irrelevancy, and become a true "directional" school that so many abhor. Get used to it.  I have. All I can do is "count the days".

Really.

Count

Date: Feb 18, 2006

Counting the days wrote:

This school has been wounded mortally I'm afraid. It will slowly slide into irrelevancy, and become a true "directional" school that so many abhor. Get used to it. I have. All I can do is "count the days".

This is clearly the most depressing statement I have seen on this board. I fear that it may be true. Why? Because I have seen no remorse expressed from the IHL or from the university administration. Remorse is one thing a judge looks for during the sentencing segment of a trial. If I were a judge, which I am not, my judgment would be a harsh one.

Date: Feb 19, 2006

Here come the judge wrote:

This is clearly the most depressing statement I have seen on this board. I fear that it may be true. Why? Because I have seen no remorse expressed from the IHL or from the university administration.

And you won't see any remorse expressed from the IHL or from the university administration because in their collective minds they've done nothing wrong.

Date: Feb 19, 2006

Googler wrote:

And you won't see any remorse expressed from the IHL or from the university administration because in their collective minds they've done nothing wrong.

With no remorse and no admission by the IHL that nothing wrong occurred, I believe it is reasonable to expect that something similar might occur in the future. That's why some judges can be tough on defendants who show no remorse over their wrongdoings.

Date: Feb 19, 2006

Here come the judge wrote:

With no remorse and no admission by the IHL that nothing wrong occurred, I believe it is reasonable to expect that something similar might occur in the future. That's why some judges can be tough on defendants who show no remorse over their wrongdoings.

Change my first sentence to read "With no remorse and no admission that wrong occurred........"

Date: Feb 19, 2006

I agree with you, however, on so many levels. It is time to accept this. This school has been wounded mortally I'm afraid. It will slowly slide into irrelevancy, and become a true "directional" school that so many abhor.

I really hope this happens slowly. If the institution "crashes and burns" I don't think IHL or SFT will take responsibility for that. Guess who'll get blamed, the dashed faculty. My guess is that IHL is keeping its collective fingers crossed that this won't happen soon. USM just needs another 14 months until a new President can be put in place that can do a better job of burying the place at a slow enough pace that no one, or at least the alumni, will notice. That may be harder than they think with a faculty and staff composed of "40 hours and out" and "that's not part of my job description" mentality.

BTW, I can tell you that the "quietness" of the faculty (no letters to the editor, etc.) is making some of the alumni nervous. I don't think they know why but they may eventually figure out that a quiet faculty is a disengaged faculty. These folks liked a good fight with the "liberals" and having them quit the field is alien to them. They got rid of some of the "rats" but they haven't figured out the rest of the story. Maybe they never will.

Date: Feb 19, 2006

collateral damage wrote:

I can tell you that the "quietness" of the faculty (no letters to the editor, etc.) is making some of the alumni nervous. I don't think they know why but they may eventually figure out that a quiet faculty is a disengaged faculty. These folks liked a good fight with the "liberals" and having them quit the field is alien to them. They got rid of some of the "rats" but they haven't figured out the rest of the story. Maybe they never will.

And they have good reason to worry. A disengaged faculty is a disengaged university. The USM faculty has every reason to be disengaged.

Date: Feb 19, 2006

According to a friend of mine on the IHL staff, the faculty at Ole Miss (especially his peers on the Law School faculty) were opposed to his selection as Chancellor.

Date: Feb 19, 2006

I used to talk to my kids about going to USM and brag about how much I enjoyed the Honors College. However, today was a sad day because we were discussing the possibility of them going to Ole Miss. I never thought this day would come, but I had to honestly tell them I'd prefer for them to go to Ole Miss over Southern Miss.

Date: Feb 19, 2006

Advocate wrote:

I used to talk to my kids about going to USM and brag about how much I enjoyed the Honors College. However, today was a sad day because we were discussing the possibility of them going to Ole Miss. I never thought this day would come, but I had to honestly tell them I'd prefer for them to go to Ole Miss over Southern Miss.

Before I pulled the trigger on Ole Miss, I'd check out Alabama, Auburn, Tennessee, or Arkansas. With decent grades and a mid20s or above ACT, it shouldn't be much if any more expensive than staying in state. A lot better degree (in many majors) for little or no extra money. Alabama even has a special admissions coordinator just for Mississippi. The same deal can be had at Millsaps. Just contact Ole Miss next week and see how interested they are in your child coming to school there. If they don't have a 32 ACT, they could care less. They are foolishly treating instate students like some sort of captive audience. Maybe so, for now.

I'm not mentioning LSU, its just a mess now and the future is uncertain. However, check out LA Tech. There's a lot of value there in some programs with good out-of-state support. I won't even mention the deals available if your child is willing to go to school outside of the South. Every "real" school wants to say they have students from all 50 states. You could probably find a good deal as close as Texas Tech, OU, or OkState.

Happy hunting.

Date: Feb 19, 2006

They got rid of some of the "rats" but they haven't figured out the rest of the story. Maybe they never will.

There's a rat or two out there who might bring the Gatsbyesque party down. I know of one who is not afraid of this fight - and we''ll soon see the fight played out in a higher court of law.

Date: Feb 19, 2006

OS Buckeye wrote:

Before I pulled the trigger on Ole Miss, I'd check out Alabama, Auburn, Tennessee, or Arkansas. With decent grades and a mid20s or above ACT, it shouldn't be much if any more expensive than staying in state. A lot better degree (in many majors) for little or no extra money. Alabama even has a special admissions coordinator just for Mississippi. The same deal can be had at Millsaps. Just contact Ole Miss next week and see how interested they are in your child coming to school there. If they don't have a 32 ACT, they could care less. They are foolishly treating instate students like some sort of captive audience. Maybe so, for now. I'm not mentioning LSU, its just a mess now and the future is uncertain. However, check out LA Tech. There's a lot of value there in some programs with good out-of-state support. I won't even mention the deals available if your child is willing to go to school outside of the South. Every "real" school wants to say they have students from all 50 states. You could probably find a good deal as close as Texas Tech, OU, or OkState. Happy hunting.

Why not Columbus (OS that is) or Penn State? The SUNY system has some great deals also. U Maryland has also done a great job in advancing their institution (my niece with 1200+ SATs and a decent GPA was shocked that she did not get an offer).

One of mine just graduated from USM, and was so disappointed with what happened to her program and USM in her 3.5 years here (I made it a point to not discuss USM with her-this is from her own experiences) that she will not consider law school in Miss (she figures she can get less headaches and less provincialism elsewhere).

My almost 14 year old is doing well in school, does pretty well on standardized tests (she should be one of those 30 ACT kids), and is a super person (despite having me for a dad). She wants to go to USM to stay close to home (which would be a cost saver for me). A few years ago this looked like a reasonable option...

Date: Feb 19, 2006

A nice thing Ole Miss has as compared to more prestigious state universities is the fact that it is essentially a school for undergraduates located in a small, relatively safe town. A parent can appreciate that.

Date: Feb 19, 2006

OS Buckeye,

Before you go bashing Ole Miss for its recruitment policies, turn your thoughts to its goals. First, Ole Miss wants to cultivate and protect its long-standing image as the archetypal Southern University. Second (and related to #1), Ole Miss wants to maintain its relatively small size without sacrificing programs. Third, Ole Miss wants to recruit the type of student it desires without regard from which Southern state the students hail. In that vein Ole Miss is doing exactly as it should. Recruit only the top Mississippi students, accept the sons and daughters of rich alumni and supporters, and attract good out-of-state students -- leave the rest of the MS students to go to State, Southern, JSU, and the others. It's a perfectly workable strategy that will pay off big in the future. When you've got a successful alumni base that has had a great undergraduate experience while all of their peers have attended schools like USM, you can pretty much count the dollars that will roll in to help maintain that nostalgia.

SJ

Date: Feb 19, 2006

Most students attend an undergraduate college in their state of residence. Poll your faculty and you'll see that is true. Graduate school is another story, of course. Although many undergraduates do very well far from home, I've seen many trot back to their home state when they discover being far away is not always what it's cracked up to be.

Date: Feb 19, 2006

Mitch, Your're right about Suny, especially Binghamton, don't get much more "college town" than that. University Park and Colombus are "real" university towns. I've seen your story too many times in the last 30 years. The average at USM is just too low for kids with above a mid20s ACT and any sort of work ethic.

Old Head - You're right too. Left out some of the max party places (will remain unnamed). Auburn, Arkansas, LA Tech, Ok State, and Texas Tech are not exactly in modern-day Sodom & Gomorrahs. They're all still small enough to be undergraduate focused places.

Date: Feb 19, 2006

I'll take a small undergraduate liberal arts college anyday, regardless of location. Those types of schools have been largely neglected in this discussion.

Date: Feb 19, 2006

having been through this with two children, let me suggest the "unpardonable" on this site--USM is pretty good. my older child had excellent test scores and excellent grades, good enough to be accepted at places like alabama, but also at places like washington university in st. louis and u of chicago. (tried to get him/her to think of rice, but ah youth). however, when i saw the financial end of things (i have another following) i began to rethink things. i wasn't sure that a liberal arts degree from some of these places was worth a moderately priced home in hattiesburg, nor did i think it was such a better degree program that it was worth the price. at USM my older child was able to take advantage of the international studies program--studied abroad for 9 months--something that i would not have been able to afford at many of the privates or publics. despite what some think, any number of programs here are very good for bright students. since my wife and i push graduate education, it's the next selection for us that is critical and for my older child, thanks to many fine faculty, there are options available.

Date: Feb 19, 2006

MapQuestor wrote:

Most students attend an undergraduate college in their state of residence. Poll your faculty and you'll see that is true. Graduate school is another story, of course. Although many undergraduates do very well far from home, I've seen many trot back to their home state when they discover being far away is not always what it's cracked up to be.

The problem with staying in my state of residence, is that the top colleges usually only want the cream of the crop from their own states, leaving excellent students to go to neighboring states with similar colleges. I live in Texas and with the top 10% rule, if your kids go to private or exceptional schools, it is difficult to get into the University of Texas or Texas A&M -- even with great test scores. The Texas schools want kids from other states, Ole Miss wants kids from other states, and etc. A top kid from Mississippi has a better shot at UT than one from Dallas. I also realize there are great schools outside of the region, but the SUNY system might be a bit too far. My daughter has mentioned Syracuse, but I don't know if she'd like the weather -- a winter wardrobe may cost more than room and board! I do know that the rent for apartments in Baton Rouge has gone through the roof. In the end, you let them make their own decisions then you hope and pray that your money is well spent, they have a terrific experience, and get a great eduction. Once you get that education and hopefully a job, it doesn't matter where you went, but how you perform on the job and utilize the education you received.

Date: Feb 19, 2006

OS Buckeye wrote:

Mitch, Your're right about Suny, especially Binghamton, don't get much more "college town" than that.

Yup-I attended Harpur College (SUNY Binghamton), but finished elsewhere. I went upstate to Binghamton when I just turned 17 (after spending half a year at Hunter College on 68th St in NY--Central Park was our campus). Almost went to grad school at Binghamton years later (but ended up at Kent State). In the late 60s and early 70s, Binghamton had its own lake for students called Empire Lake. It was a strictly no-clothes-allowed boating, sunning, and volleyball student operation. Lake Savoy it was not.

Harpur was for the Hippie 1400 SAT crowd from Brooklyn, the Bronx, and the Island back then. Not big on Greek life or sports. Plenty of beer sold on campus. Co-ed dorms in the true sense of the word. Some of us worked in the summer for IBM or Hughes Aircraft assembling avionics. Speedies were the munchie of choice in the bars. Great bar bands.

It's changed quite a bit, I hear (but still good academically). It may be safe enough to consider sending my kid there now.

Date: Feb 19, 2006

Commitment wrote:

I'll take a small undergraduate liberal arts college anyday, regardless of location. Those types of schools have been largely neglected in this discussion.

Why? So your child can have his or her hand held and you (or he or she) can pay $20,000 or more per year for that privilege? While schools like Millsaps (or the more prestigious members of the private libby breed) may sell certain factors to parents and students, state universities dominate small private schools in terms of success per dollar spent. Send your kid to Ole Miss and make them take as many hard courses as you can find. Then they will have skills to get into a good graduate program and won't have a mortgage payment without the house.