SH, 1/20/06: Colleges want more freedom with funds - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Jan 20, 2006

SH, 1/20/06: Colleges want more freedom with funds

Date: Jan 20, 2006

Meredith says he didn't receive any feedback from the community colleges...Wayne Stonecypher says he was never asked. Something is rotten in the state of Mississippi.

Quote from Invictus on another thread:

I will say this only one time in this venue:

Do NOT trust Tom Meredith.

Date: Jan 20, 2006

I think this type of action by Meredith is exactly why he was hired in the first place. Anyone who truly understands the nature of higher ed in MS knows the power that JUCOs and CCs have had historically. This seems to be an act to separate the 2-years from the 4-years as a whole. Requiring the $ to be used for student aid helps UM, MSU, and USM a whole lot more than it helps MGCCC, PRCC, or JCJC, because it acts as bait to draw students into 4-year schools (they received more $ in total).

What has helped keep MS higher ed down for so long is the strength of the CC system. If the CCs are weakened from an enrollment standpoint then their clout will fall as well. Meredith knows this and is experienced in pushing CC systems down the totem pole (check his prior jobs). While this would be vastly unpopular if publicized, diminishing the number and the power of the CC system is necessary for the long-term viability of the 4-year institutions in the state. Until the better students stop going to a CC before going to a 4-year, the overall quality of the 4-year environment will not improve. Right now, the 4-years are filling the gap with enrollment caps (UM) or with open enrollment (USM). Neither of these strategies is viable.

During Meredith's term as Commish, look for the following:
1. Covert activities to diminish enrollment and power of CCs
2. Redirecting students and funds to 4-year schools
3. Solidification of UM and MSU as the "traditional" residential campuses
4. JSU and USM further become educational service institutions, offering education to the masses through multi-campus activities and online learning
5. When CC power is low, elimination of many CC football programs (think 5 years down the road)
6. As JSU and USM alumni affinity falls, look for both to be NCAA D-II sports status (again, think 5 years down the road)
7. Specialized programs with prestige (arts, creative writing, specialized business degrees, etc.) are moved to UM and MSU. Specialized programs required for basic functioning of society (nursing, education, criminal justice, basic business, basic sciences, basic letters, etc.) allowed at USM and JSU.

By weakening the CC system, TM transfers power to 4-years. By stratifying 4-years, TM creates 2 sets of 4-years with different missions. No football at CCs + No D-I football at USM and JSU = more athletic talent to UM and MSU. Programs to UM and MSU from USM and JSU = more power and prestige for UM and MSU and less prestige for USM and JSU. End result: 2 traditional campuses for the "better" students and several degree mills.

Meredith knows what must be done to solidify and maintain a heirarchy within a state system. Look at what he did with Georgia's system. UGA is the flagship with capped enrollment. If you get a Hope scholly, you probably go to GStateU or GSouthern, which are much less prestigious in general, have fewer resources, and are basically open enrollment. If you have any doubts about where this is going, just look to the East.

Date: Jan 20, 2006

Googler wrote:

Meredith says he didn't receive any feedback from the community colleges...Wayne Stonecypher says he was never asked. Something is rotten in the state of Mississippi. Quote from Invictus on another thread: I will say this only one time in this venue:Do NOT trust Tom Meredith.

I thought people came away with a good warm fuzzy optimistic feeling when they talked with Meredith.

Date: Jan 20, 2006

Crossed Signals wrote:

I thought people came away with a good warm fuzzy optimistic feeling when they talked with Meredith.

After the last 5 years, almost anything better than getting bashed feels warm and fuzzy. It'll be particularly easy to downgrade USM as a significant portion of the stakeholders don't seem to realize what's happening to "their" school. Since there are almost no stakeholders left on the faculty, it'll be up to the others to create enough discomfort to keep that from happening. Personally, I'm not very optimistic about that.

Time to learn how to deal with being at a degree mill like Marshall.

At least it'll be funny watching MU and MSU keep falling further and further behind the rest of the SEC and the institutional interest of their alumni fall in tandem. This is already happening. What is the current level of interest in the "Egg Bowl"? Probably even less after 5 more years of getting beat up in the SEC.

Date: Jan 20, 2006

blitzkrieg wrote:

Crossed Signals wrote: I thought people came away with a good warm fuzzy optimistic feeling when they talked with Meredith. After the last 5 years, almost anything better than getting bashed feels warm and fuzzy. It'll be particularly easy to downgrade USM as a significant portion of the stakeholders don't seem to realize what's happening to "their" school. Since there are almost no stakeholders left on the faculty, it'll be up to the others to create enough discomfort to keep that from happening. Personally, I'm not very optimistic about that.

Prior to Meredith we were de facto second tier to OM and MSU and declining, and will continue to be, for three important reasons. First, OM and MSU have had leaders who focused hard on raising endowments and fundraising (and not hanging their hats merely on grants and marks). Second, OM and MSU have programs indicative of flagship and land grant institutions, respectively--law, medicine, engineering, vet school, a systematic extension system, and so on--which we will never have. Third, OM and MSU leadership have been truly interested in improving academic quality and reputation, whereas this does not seem to be a priority for our current administration.

There are high quality second bananas in many states with clearly defined and admirable missions that are wonderful places to work. Does that describe USM today? If we can't be OM and MSU, want do WE want to be?

The AAUP asked Dr. Meredith where he saw USM in the grand scheme of things, and of all his answers, this was the most vague and evasive. The data are starting to come in, and they are not comforting.

Date: Jan 20, 2006

Southern Justice wrote:

I think this type of action by Meredith is exactly why he was hired in the first place. Anyone who truly understands the nature of higher ed in MS knows the power that JUCOs and CCs have had historically.

The main problem Meredith faces in "eliminating" CJCs is that he has no direct power over them. IHL's role as gatekeeper for Title IV funds is about the only clout it has over the CJCs. Remember, the community colleges (and junior college) have independent boards of trustees. Changing this would require some significant rewriting of the Mississippi Code. Recognizing this, Meredith will continue to use subterfuge & underhanded tactics to advance his strategy. Don't credit him with any great brilliance -- Title IV student aid is about his only weapon.

One final point: Don't deceive yourself one nanosecond that Meredith is really about setting up a good university system. Tom Meredith is concerned first & foremost with consolidating his own personal power. After that, he is interested in advancing a particular institution at which he spent most of his career.

But a funny thing happened on the way to the sawmill: Meredith in his short tenure as IHL commish has succeeded in p1ssing off one of the most powerful & influential Republican politicians in the United States. Senator Cochran's office is already in damage control mode, because they had no idea how inequitable Meredith's Title IV scam would be.

Date: Jan 20, 2006

Saying the TM doesn't have control over the CJCs is like saying Wal-Mart doesn't have any control over mom and pop grocery stores. It's simply not true.

If TM makes 4-years more attractive to students relative to CJCs, then more students will bypass the CJC system. The Katrina money is a good start in that direction. USM will steal every PRCC, JCJC, MGCCC, Hinds, Co-Lin, and other CJC student (even prospective students) that it can using the Katrina money as bait. Fewer students = less money = less power = fewer people caring about CJCs.

It's my personal opinion that the CJC system needs to be overhauled along with the 4-year system. Too many of both. Not enough rigor at most schools. Too little money to support the monstrosity that is the Mississippi educational system.

I don't like TM, as you might guess from my posts. Just remember that he's just a puppet with someone else (actually a group of someone elses) pulling the strings.

Date: Jan 21, 2006

Southern Justice wrote:

Saying the TM doesn't have control over the CJCs is like saying Wal-Mart doesn't have any control over mom and pop grocery stores. It's simply not true.
<SNIP>
I don't like TM, as you might guess from my posts. Just remember that he's just a puppet with someone else (actually a group of someone elses) pulling the strings.

First off, SJ, assuming you are somehow affiliated with the University of Southern Mississippi, your comments regarding "rigor" at the community colleges are utterly preposterous. USM is de facto an open admissions institution & it has absolutely NO reputation for academic rigor. In fact, I don't believe it ever really has had such a reputation, even if we go back to the halcyon days of the 1980s.

Second, your WalMart vs mom & pop statement reflects a very common misconception about community colleges: that students attend them because they cost less. Having surveyed thousands of community college students using nationally normed instruments, I can tell you confidently that the #1 reason students attend community colleges is location. Simple as that. A single parent living in Brookhaven & combining support by relatives with a part-time job held since high school simply cannot relocate to Hattiesburg, Starkville, or Oxford at the drop of a hat. (Have you compared rents?) The CJC gives that person the opportunity to save a lot of money in living expenses.

Moreover, if you understand how federal financial aid works, there really isn't any difference in cost between a CJC & a university for the truly needy or lower middle-class student, since federal aid awards are based on a comparison of the estimated family contribution & the published cost of attendance of the institution. The higher tuition & fees of the universities simply raise the COA.

My question, then, is how do you propose to overhaul the entire higher education system in Mississippi? Put them all under IHL? Don't make me puke!

Date: Jan 21, 2006

So USM is as just easy as a CJC. Just another reason to go to the 4-year instead of a 2-year.

With USM posturing to put more and more courses online, your location argument goes out the window. Is there a more convenient location than your living room? I think not. Also, what do you consider the cost of attending? I consider tuition, books, fees, room, board, transportation, and time. Let's suppose you are correct and in general tuition, books, and fees are a wash. What about room, board, and transportation? If I have to get an apartment in Hattiesburg, then that obviously costs more than living at home with Mom and Dad in Poplarville. If I have to live in Poplarville and drive to Hattiesburg, then it costs more than going to PRCC in Poplarville. Of course, the commute also costs time. I'm not too sure you've introduced any factors I hadn't already considered, just that you're playing a semantics game, calling it 'location' rather than 'cost'.

If USM has more money than a CJC for Katrina-related finanical aid, then it can obviously offer more financial aid to more students. If I have more money than you do, I can buy more. That's what USM, MSU, and UM will do. They'll buy a few more students with their newly found financial aid. Where will these students come from? Texas? Louisiana? Alabama? Hardly. They'll come from here in Mississippi. What are those students doing now? I don't know, but I'd bet that some of them are currently enrolled in CJCs.

What does a 2-year associates' degree get you? In most cases, not much. If students want to get decent jobs or go to grad school, they still have to get that 4-year degree, which is the rub, isn't it? 4-year institutions can survive without the CJCs, since CJCs offer few programs that the 4-years do not. I've never heard of a CJC in Mississippi that offers a bachelor's degree in, say, English Literature, because CJCs can't offer that type of degree by law. If you want to be an LPN, then MGCCC is fine. In most states, if you want to be an RN and have the extensive opportunities that designation offers, then you have to go the 4-year route. Engineer? You need a 4-year degree. Teacher? You need a 4-year degree. Psychologist? You need a 4-year degree plus grad school. CPA? Requires a 4-years degree plus additional graduate work. Law school? You need a 4-year degree. Medical school? You need a 4-year degree.

I understand the role of the CJC better than most. It serves a purpose at present. However in most instances the CJC is simply a middle man or a feeder system. With the value of the high school diploma at an all-time low, a 4-year college degree is becoming a necessity.

To answer the IHL question, if CJCs want to be considered part of the higher learning system in MS, then they should be included in the same overall funding formula. Otherwise, put CJCs in with elementary, middle, and high schools.

With the internet era, CJCs by and large are going to go the way of the Dodo. Some will survive, but most will become branch campuses of 4-year institutions, places for online students to go get face to face help or to take exams. It's just a matter of time.

Date: Jan 21, 2006

Southern Justice wrote:

To answer the IHL question, if CJCs want to be considered part of the higher learning system in MS, then they should be included in the same overall funding formula. Otherwise, put CJCs in with elementary, middle, and high schools.

Ignoring the rest of your post because I don't believe that pissing matches accomplish very much except make funny holes in gravel roads, I'll say that I agree with you here 100%. If the CJCs (I noticed that you finally picked up on my abbreviation, which happens to be the correct one) got $5000+ per head to educate students as do the universities, things could be considerably different.

I'll offer that if the universities could deliver the "bang for the buck" that community colleges do, we'd be in a considerably different situation as a state today.

BTW, the community colleges happen to rule the roost in this state vis-a-vis online classes. They are currently about a light year ahead of the universities.