HORACE FLEMING,,,,THANKS - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Dec 5, 2005

HORACE FLEMING,,,,THANKS

Date: Dec 5, 2005

And thanks for the most recent dignity that you have brought to USM>

Date: Dec 6, 2005

When post-tenure review was being consdered in 1999, Portera and Khayat supported their faculty and spoke against that process. Fleming was for post-tenure review.

Date: Dec 6, 2005

Counter wrote:

When post-tenure review was being consdered in 1999, Portera and Khayat supported their faculty and spoke against that process. Fleming was for post-tenure review.

Of course there are a number of administrators who may find themselves back in full faculty positions who may themselves face post-tenure review! After all, it's been a long time since they had to jump through any hoops and be accountable!

Amy Young

Date: Dec 6, 2005

Let's don't delude ourselves. There were problems with Fleming, starting with his choice of staff such as the technology czar, McGowan. We could have upgraded the computer system much more efficiently and cheaply with a solution other than McGowan's. Nevertheless, he was a good person, and I hope someday the true story of his forced leaving comes out. I sure would like to hear it.

Date: Dec 6, 2005

Counter wrote:

When post-tenure review was being consdered in 1999, Portera and Khayat supported their faculty and spoke against that process. Fleming was for post-tenure review.

Frankly, this is about all I remember about the Fleming era.

Date: Dec 6, 2005

Counter wrote:

Fleming was for post-tenure review.
If this is true you'd think the football- minded anti- faculty people would have supported him. They probably didn't understand a thing that was happening at USM except win-loss records.

Date: Dec 6, 2005

I don't know what triggered this thread, but I am happy to join in it. Folks, this was all about the fact that Fleming would not accept the treatment a State and OLD Miss board at IHL kept dealing out. They shafted him but did it in such a way that the locals unwittingly did their dirty work. A round of applause please for the Warrens (at the urging of Musgrove, no less), the Mixons, and Crandall and Little Crandall Howell, and the Dews Brothers. Too, Bill McLellan and even Giannini who owed his job to Fleming did their part to get him out. And a nodding acknowledgement that Aubrey Lucas never stepped up, either in the beginning to compete or at the end to give Fleming a hand. This was all about the relative rankings of the big three and nobody was going to let it last for us. And it was the Gulf Coast, which, in an interesting twist of fate, just ain't the same now. But neither is USM, and we have got a long way to go to get back where we were in Fleming's time. We would have been a lot further ahead except for the ignorance of the car dealers and their supporters.

Date: Dec 6, 2005

Counter wrote:

When post-tenure review was being consdered in 1999, Portera and Khayat supported their faculty and spoke against that process. Fleming was for post-tenure review.

Sorry, Amy, you are wrong on this. There was uniform support for it because it was already being done when Fleming arrived. No school of any real standing and academic reputation would be lacking post tenure review. Don't know where this comes from.

Date: Dec 6, 2005

Counter wrote: When post-tenure review was being consdered in 1999, Portera and Khayat supported their faculty and spoke against that process. Fleming was for post-tenure review.

***************************************************

donald wrote:
Sorry, Amy, you are wrong on this. There was uniform support for it because it was already being done when Fleming arrived. No school of any real standing and academic reputation would be lacking post tenure review. Don't know where this comes from.

Counter wrote, then Amy quoted and commented. Oh, for the days of the old board when such was clear. But what Donald says is consistent with my recollection: post tenure review is not just four or five years old.

Date: Dec 6, 2005

Hamlet's Ghost wrote:

I don't know what triggered this thread, but I am happy to join in it. Folks, this was all about the fact that Fleming would not accept the treatment a State and OLD Miss board at IHL kept dealing out. They shafted him but did it in such a way that the locals unwittingly did their dirty work. A round of applause please for the Warrens (at the urging of Musgrove, no less), the Mixons, and Crandall and Little Crandall Howell, and the Dews Brothers. Too, Bill McLellan and even Giannini who owed his job to Fleming did their part to get him out. And a nodding acknowledgement that Aubrey Lucas never stepped up, either in the beginning to compete or at the end to give Fleming a hand. This was all about the relative rankings of the big three and nobody was going to let it last for us. And it was the Gulf Coast, which, in an interesting twist of fate, just ain't the same now. But neither is USM, and we have got a long way to go to get back where we were in Fleming's time. We would have been a lot further ahead except for the ignorance of the car dealers and their supporters.

I think you are exactly right. I've heard this over and over. Flemming was making things happen at USM and it shook the power structure in the IHL. He had to go, but some of his own (USM alumni) did him in. Its a shame. We would be a much different university now if he was still President.

Date: Dec 6, 2005

When Fleming arrived the average faculty salary at USM was number one in the system. He over allocated to technology and at his end USM was number 3 in salary. He was all talk and no substance. The post-tenure review process was headed toward an IHL managed process. Khayat and Portera stopped that from happening. Fleming was a wimp.

Date: Dec 6, 2005

Horace Fleming is a nice guy, but he was in over is head in a cesspool of sharks here in Mississippi. Higher education here is so heavily politicized--a free-for-all at the state level. How can person with integrity succeed in such an environment?

Date: Dec 7, 2005

Counter wrote:

When Fleming arrived the average faculty salary at USM was number one in the system. He over allocated to technology and at his end USM was number 3 in salary. He was all talk and no substance. The post-tenure review process was headed toward an IHL managed process. Khayat and Portera stopped that from happening. Fleming was a wimp.

You are wrong. Salary raise money is spent for just that each year, SALARY. It is a separate budget, and Fleming and nobody else could touch it. You listen to the Carl Nicholsons and that is what he and the used car dealers would like for you to believe. As for the tech improvements, those were financed through the normal IHL channels. What you are listening to is lies and myths. What happened here is with the two big $100Million plus gifts that Ole Miss got that were used to supplement salaries. That is what put everybody else behind.

Date: Dec 7, 2005

Counter wrote:

When Fleming arrived the average faculty salary at USM was number one in the system. He over allocated to technology and at his end USM was number 3 in salary. He was all talk and no substance. The post-tenure review process was headed toward an IHL managed process. Khayat and Portera stopped that from happening. Fleming was a wimp.

What do you mean headed toward an IHL managed process? Hell, IHL wanted to manage everything. Post tenure review, since you obviously do not know what it means, is conducted by peers within one's institution. Khayat and Portera were IHL lap dogs, but then they could afford to be when USM did not even have representation on the IHL board. Wimp? I don't think so. The record shows he stood up to those who were trying to keep USM down. In the end, IHL did not have to try hard, given all the help they had from some of our own alumni!

Date: Dec 7, 2005

qwerty wrote:

Horace Fleming is a nice guy, but he was in over is head in a cesspool of sharks here in Mississippi. Higher education here is so heavily politicized--a free-for-all at the state level. How can person with integrity succeed in such an environment?

He is a nice guy. I sent him an e-mail the very day he turned down his one year contract extension to thank him for what he had done and to wish him well in his future never expecting a reply, but got one less than an hour after I sent it. He was a very classy and genuine man. No wonder he was ill suited for the higher education environment in Mississippi.

Date: Dec 7, 2005

Nobody's perfect, but I can tell you one damned thing for sure. Horace Fleming advanced Southern. Lucas was the wimp and Thames is the Klumb-Colbert-Whitten-Nicholson STOOGE! When they got rid of Fleming--which Portera vowed to do when the board let us have the polymer engineering program, which State did not like--they put us back in our place. No way they were going to tolerate an aggressive style on the part of USM. For a minute there, it was happening. Now it has all been undone. I hope the car dealers sleep well at night. They know they screwed us. They may even recognize now how they were used! Hope so.

Date: Dec 7, 2005

Barefoot knows as much as Fleming. I hope he is on campus, so he can go to the Accounting Dept. and ask a former VP of Finance if only faculty allocations from the legislture were the only source of funds for faculty salary. Portera and Khayat knew differently. Fleming and Barefoot did not. Stupid is as Stupid does.

Date: Dec 7, 2005

Fleming came in with the backing of the faculty. Something happened while he was there that has not been explained.

He followed a person that had been there a long time. Like Ray Perkins following the Bear. He had a restless faculty, a legislative lobbyist (CNG) who was out of control, a group of jocks that were out for his A--, and the SFT coup guys that were out to get him.

He had one or two good friends on the IHL board. He had a lot of good faculty members that supported many of things he was trying to do.

Where could we have been? He did not accept the additional year that was offer to him. SFT stole another year by announcing his own retirement date. What a difference in these two men.

Date: Dec 8, 2005

Observor wrote:

Barefoot knows as much as Fleming. I hope he is on campus, so he can go to the Accounting Dept. and ask a former VP of Finance if only faculty allocations from the legislture were the only source of funds for faculty salary. Portera and Khayat knew differently. Fleming and Barefoot did not. Stupid is as Stupid does.

Since the state and IHL were cutting all university budgets, where do you think any other salary money could be found? What former VP for finance would this be? If it is a former vp, then I question what they person did or did not do to become a "former" vp. Look at the record of constant budget cuts each of those years.

Date: Dec 8, 2005

Observor wrote:

Barefoot knows as much as Fleming. I hope he is on campus, so he can go to the Accounting Dept. and ask a former VP of Finance if only faculty allocations from the legislture were the only source of funds for faculty salary. Portera and Khayat knew differently. Fleming and Barefoot did not. Stupid is as Stupid does.

Got it. You mean James Henderson who was one of the cabal trying to get Fleming out. Fleming asked him to resign because of personal issues Henderson had that reflected badly on Southern.

Date: Dec 8, 2005

qwerty wrote:

...a cesspool of sharks here... How can person with integrity succeed in such an environment?

nm

Date: Dec 23, 2005

Fleming was not perfect and his actions were not "one way or the other" when viewed in hindsight.

He put in charge of technology this nut McGowan who overspent everything he laid eyes on and saddled the university with unfortunate technology decisions that continue to dog us to this day.

On the other hand, he went to bat for the coast campus presence and, as a result, ran aground against other powerful university-type folks who wanted to keep USM in its third-tier place.

Hey, they won. Somehow they won. Not just their influence is to be credited, of course, but his staunch stance on behalf of USM Gulf Coast led directly to his downfall... other influences can be sifted in.

Was he perfect? no way. Horrible? not that either.

Honest? My experience says yes. (with him personally - not necessarily with those around him)

Over his head? Absolutely.

USM needs a native son or daughter to come back to the school to lead it, with experience from the "outside" but also with enough experience from the "inside" to know what buttons he/she will need to push to get things done. And, on top of that, remain honest and open with the university employees so that they can see what is coming toward them before they are run over. THAT has been the largest problem with any president that experiences trouble - here or elsewhere.

Date: Dec 26, 2005

Rode Beside wrote:

USM needs a native son or daughter to come back to the school to lead it, with experience from the "outside" but also with enough experience from the "inside" to know what buttons he/she will need to push to get things done. And, on top of that, remain honest and open with the university employees so that they can see what is coming toward them before they are run over. THAT has been the largest problem with any president that experiences trouble - here or elsewhere.

Sounds like you're describing the one, the only.....Tim Hudson.

Date: Dec 26, 2005

USM Presidential Recruiter wrote:

Sounds like you're describing the one, the only.....Tim Hudson.

Don't be so fast to act, Recruiter. There's also Andy Griffin (Chemistry), Steve Doblin (Mathematics), and other talented people that USM let get away.

Date: Dec 26, 2005

Rode Beside wrote:

USM needs a native son or daughter to come back to the school to lead it, with experience from the "outside" but also with enough experience from the "inside" to know what buttons he/she will need to push to get things done.

Knowing (and doing) what is right doesn't require inside knowledge of the buttons to push. This kind of thinking will only get you more of the same. This place needs an outsider who will make decisions based on sound academic principles and unclouded vision of current educational realities. I would argue against anyone with any connections here.

Date: Dec 26, 2005

Stakeholder wrote:

Rode Beside wrote:
USM needs a native son or daughter to come back to the school to lead it, with experience from the "outside" but also with enough experience from the "inside" to know what buttons he/she will need to push to get things done.
Knowing (and doing) what is right doesn't require inside knowledge of the buttons to push. This kind of thinking will only get you more of the same. This place needs an outsider who will make decisions based on sound academic principles and unclouded vision of current educational realities. I would argue against anyone with any connections here.

Anyone taking bets on whether it will be an insider or outsider? I see on the Bud Ginn thread that Frances Lucas' name keeps popping up.

Date: Dec 26, 2005

Stakeholder wrote:

This place needs an outsider who will make decisions based on sound academic principles and unclouded vision of current educational realities. I would argue against anyone with any connections here.

I second that. Infections such as we have here are difficult to cure.

Date: Dec 26, 2005

USM Presidential Recruiter wrote:

Rode Beside wrote:
USM needs a native son or daughter to come back to the school to lead it, with experience from the "outside" but also with enough experience from the "inside" to know what buttons he/she will need to push to get things done. And, on top of that, remain honest and open with the university employees so that they can see what is coming toward them before they are run over. THAT has been the largest problem with any president that experiences trouble - here or elsewhere.
Sounds like you're describing the one, the only.....Tim Hudson.

Hudson? Honest? Hardly?

Date: Jan 2, 2006

Reflections on a culture wrote:

qwerty wrote: ...a cesspool of sharks here... How can person with integrity succeed in such an environment? nm

Fleming had one year of budget increases for programs and that's it. As for technology, we didn't have any before he came. I know. I could not get grants because we could not support the work! So working to put in good technology based on absolutely NOTHING to start with, well that is a challenge. Also, we got to be a tier I Carnegie institution, top of the heap. Bet we are not in that category now. Anybody want to bet me? Let's look it up since SFT is not boasting I'll bet we lost it.

Nobody--least of all Aubrey Lucas--stepped forward when we were making a difference. Most were scared to death of their jobs. I like a person with courage and convictions. Fleming had those. Too bad the rest of us did not figure it out in time.