Another Thank heavens for Mississippi moment - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Oct 21, 2005

RE: Another Thank heavens for Mississippi moment

Date: Oct 21, 2005

New Orleanian, you've figured out the solution to the problem for Mississippians living in poverty...ship them all to NOLA to work at McDonald's for $10-12/hour! Then, those above the poverty level in MS would have nothing to complain about, right?! All the problems would be solved! Hallelujah!

Just don't expect those MS Wal-Marts and McDonald's to stay open.

Date: Oct 21, 2005

Quick Answers wrote:

Private secondary schools seeking accreditation from Middle States do - don't know about the New England equivalent.

I guess the natural follow-up question is, Do the majority of private secondary schools seek Middle States accreditation? Or is it just the "better" private secondary schools that seek accreditation? If the answer is the latter (which I suspect it is), then the effect on the state average would be positive, assuming that there are actually enough private secondary school students enrolled in the "better" private schools in that region to register statistically when added in with the much larger public school numbers.

Date: Oct 22, 2005

Former Mississippian wrote:

We do miss the Hattiesburg public library--a real treasure that we don't quite have in our new home.

There, let it be said, by virtue of a bond issue passed by us voters.

Date: Oct 22, 2005

Former Mississippian wrote:

statistician wrote:

If those folks were dropped ,educational scores in Miss. would be among the top in the nation.They may not be a majority but they are numerous enough to greatly pull down the state's scores. They are the problem.

To be fair, you'd have to let all the other states drop their poor students as well. Otherwise, you'd have sampling bias that would make any comparisions impossible. Of course you know that 'cause you're a "statistician".

In fact, the attitude held by statistician--that every child in Mississippi is neither capable nor entitled to a quality education--is the chief reason why Mississippi lags so far behind the rest of the nation. There simply is no political constituency for good public schools in the state among whites. Heck, it takes a super-majority of 60% to pass an education bond issue in Mississippi. It all goes back to race, and the thinly veiled comments above confirm that. The attitude "Why waste money educating blacks and poor whites" has made all Mississippians poorer.

I found Mississippi to be a very expensive place to live when I lived there. I have children that need to be educated. The local schools were on a starvation diet, funding-wise. When we moved to NC, my property taxes increased almost eight times what I was paying in Mississippi (no homestead exemption here and the property is significantly more valuable). I get a whole lot for my money here, though. I pay with joy every penny of my property tax because my children go to first-rate schools. A heck of a lot cheaper than the marginal private schools we were being forced to consider for our chidlren when we lived in Mississippi. And we get parks, too. We do miss the Hattiesburg public library--a real treasure that we don't quite have in our new home.

I don't have to worry about saving big bucks for a high dollar private university education either, because they can go to UNC-Chapel Hill, whose tuition at $3100 per year, is a thousand dollars lower than that the $4100 charged by USM. Which school do you think is the better value?

That's great!In a democracy we get to choose what we want. You value paying the higher taxes and getting what you perceive as more for your money. John Kerry is your man. Many of us prefer paying as little as possible to the government and making the choices ourself. I'm not criticizing you.This is a basic difference between true conservatism (not the pseudo variety of George Bush) and liberalism. I KNOW that I can always use my money more wisely than government bureaucrats,especially educators.By the way,how many of those teenage mothers in Greensboro and Winston Salem attend UNC Chapel Hill?

Date: Oct 22, 2005

truth4usm/AH wrote:

G. Franklin wrote:

LVN,with all due respect,you make CHT's point. Apparently you were poor,yet availed yourself of resources and made the right choices and no longer remain in poverty.If you had dropped out,used drugs,had multiple illegitimate children,etc. you would be one of the ones he is complaining about.

All of this kind of talk just pi$$es me off enough to post (and I'm responding more to CHT and his ilk, not you, G. Franklin)

So, because of one bad decision made early in life (and we won't even go into the abortion/adoption/keep the baby debate...always a fun conundrum for those who are anti-choice yet want to blame everything on the poor), a woman is supposed to be given the old "heave-ho" and never helped at all to get out of poverty??? Where is the lesson there? "Oh, sorry, you made a bad decision one night, now you must raise this child in poverty for the rest of your life. Too bad, so sad!" Wouldn't you just rather shoot all the poor mothers instead? No, wait, then who would work at Wal-Mart, McDonald's and all of those other barely-poverty-level wage jobs that you don't want to do?

Sometimes you people scare me.

LVN, thanks for providing a balanced, rational voice on this thread. Your kind of conservatism gives me hope for true dialogue and solutions in this ever-polarized political world.

Sheesh.

I'm in complete agreement with you on "a bad decision one night."What about two bad decisions? Or three? Is there in your opinion any restraints on support for Mothers with multiple illegitmate children ? Is more funding for education your solution? Does personal responsibility have any role?

Date: Oct 22, 2005

Question Man wrote:

... I'm in complete agreement with you on "a bad decision one night."What about two bad decisions? Or three? Is there in your opinion any restraints on support for Mothers with multiple illegitmate children ? Is more funding for education your solution? Does personal responsibility have any role?

Why do you say "bad decision"? From the culture some of these people are in you are describing everyone on the block they live. They don't think it "bad" because that would label all their family bad. They view it as the normal life they live. Their idea of making it to a college and a profession life is like talking of flying to the moon. They are too far removed from these experiences.

Date: Oct 22, 2005

Free at last wrote:

... You value paying the higher taxes and getting what you perceive as more for your money. ... Many of us prefer paying as little as possible to the government and making the choices ourself. ... I KNOW that I can always use my money more wisely than government bureaucrats,especially educators....

Many believe as you, Free. However I don't htink they are free. They "think" they are making their decisions, but in reality they choices are dictated by the powerful. Many rather make ignorant decisions to get the feeling like they are in control.

People BELIEVE they can use their money more wisely. However their "projects" must be very small.

Date: Oct 22, 2005

How many paychecks away from the street are we? For a large number of people, it's three.

Date: Oct 22, 2005

Question Man wrote:

I'm in complete agreement with you on "a bad decision one night."What about two bad decisions? Or three? Is there in your opinion any restraints on support for Mothers with multiple illegitmate children ? Is more funding for education your solution? Does personal responsibility have any role?

You're missing the bigger picture. Look, I used to work for the TX Dept. of Human Services back in the early 90s as an income assistance worker (read: food stamp lady, as I was affectionately called by my clients). I have seen folks from all walks of life applying for government assistance. Some were seasonal workers (construction workers, farm workers) with families, and they applied for assistance during their 'off months' when work was scarce. Some were elderly people who needed help paying for food. Some had just been laid off and needed help until they found their next job. Some were women whose husbands had left them, and they were trying to get back on their feet. Some were indeed young mothers who had no HS and/or college degree, and decided that staying home to raise their kids was better than working at Walmart making $5/hour (or whatever minimum wage was back then) and giving most of their paycheck towards daycare. In my opinion, one of the first steps toward helping the working poor would be subsidized daycare, but I digress. Another digression: if the mother decided to put her kid or kids in daycare and go to work at Walmart, that would mean she would usually lose her Medicaid and most likely not be able to afford Walmart's exhorbitant health insurance. So, she would have to use the hospital's emergency room any time her kid was sick, and would either get deeper into debt (as we all know emergency room visits are expensive), or default on those bills, which would, in turn, be passed along to consumers in the form of higher health care costs.

The point is that people need help and support at various points in their lives. As LVN so pointedly put it in her post above, it could very well be you next. Financial and situational problems can happen to everyone. Are you going to tell me that you would refuse help if you desperately needed it?

Another point: would you rather pay more for education or build more jails? Because that's essentially your trade-off. Me? I'd rather pay more taxes for more teachers in the classroom, because what studies HAVE shown is that a smaller teacher/student ratio leads to academic success for the students. This one's a no-brainer, folks.

My solution is a mix of personal responsibility and government support. I believe in helping people to help themselves. So, I am in favor of education and job training (with the proper support systems, such as subsidized daycare and transportation vouchers, etc.) for those who are on assistance. Programs like these have made a big difference in many folks' lives.

Oh, and to your underlying point above (your "mothers with multiple illegitmate children" as code for the old tired saw about Welfare Queens driving cadillacs, etc.), back when I worked for the TX DHS, welfare checks were $184/month for a mother and one child (I think it was $225/month for a mom and 2 children). There's no way anyone is going to get rich off of that paltry amount.

And don't get me started on corporate welfare, etc. There's plenty of government support at all levels, but it's only the poor who are villified for accepting it.

Truth

Date: Oct 23, 2005

I am teaching a dual enrollment course at Oak Grove (Psy 110). Based on a rough index (ACTS)these are presumably the best and brightest Mississippi has to offer (and my impression is that they are). My impressions about the state of education in Mississippi has been confirmed. The teachers at this school (a high SES school) are well-trained and dedicated. The students come from generally well to do homes--virtually all have nice cars and are well dressed. None was pregnant. However, the quality of their training was lower in several respects compared to that in the "blue states" in which I have lived, and far lower than the quality of training when I went to high school (which was a huge inner city Bronx school with a large Black, Asian, and Hispanic student body). Following are some of the differences:

1. A weaker high school curriculum with lower expectations.

2. Less emphasis on obtaining true competencies in broad areas of study. Instead of reading original works, students often read summarizes or descriptions of works (when I asked the students if knew the names or works of several great American novelists I named, it drew blanks in these HS seniors).

3. Inadequate funding for books and instructional material. Students are therefore not assigned much in the way of extra-classroom work. Homework is minimal.

That we have long threads about ID and Evolution suggests that these students are intellectually curious enough to contend with the fine points of this debate. Progress would be getting them through solid offerings in geometry, algebra, trig, Chaucer, World and US history, and some AP level sciences.

Date: Oct 23, 2005

Mitch wrote:

... Homework is minimal. That we have long threads about ID and Evolution suggests that these students are intellectually curious enough to contend with the fine points of this debate. Progress would be getting them through solid offerings in geometry, algebra, trig, Chaucer, World and US history, and some AP level sciences.

Mitch, I don't see how students can achieve in math and science (especially chem. or physics) without a lot of homework. They just won't develop abstract and precise thinking. They are fertile ground for the I.D. people to spread their clever play with words to deceive them.

Date: Oct 23, 2005

LeftASAP wrote:

Mitch, I don't see how students can achieve in math and science (especially chem. or physics) without a lot of homework. They just won't develop abstract and precise thinking. They are fertile ground for the I.D. people to spread their clever play with words to deceive them.

I agree. The state of basic scientific knowledge in the US is a tragedy. Ask the Joe or Jane in the street the following:

1. What is an experiment?

2. What does "plus or minus two percentage points" really mean when someone reports a survey result?

3. What is the difference between a hypothesis and a theory?

4. What is a correlation? If two variables are highly correlated, such as the race and education attainment example a previous poster used, does this necessarily mean that race affects or limits educational attainment? Why or why not?

5. Can the results of a study "prove" a theory? Why or why not?

6. You read about a relatively expensive treatment that produces what appears to be a very small reduction in the overall AIDS rate in a large country (say it reduces the 12 month prevelance of AIDS cases from 2% to 1.5% of the population). Does this mean that the treatment should not be used?

7. If you lose 12 spins at the Roulette wheel, how much does this improve your chance of winning on the next spin (assuming the same bet level and choice)?

8. For you old timers, in the Let's Make a Deal game, is it better to stick or switch to the one remaining third door after Monty shows you that there is no prize behind the second door that you did not originally select?

The responses will blow you away. And this is not merely an academic issue. Policy makers place large fiscal bets based on misinterpretation of data (or ignoring data, or failing to even collect data).

Date: Oct 23, 2005

Mitch wrote:

the state of education in Mississippi ...... far lower than the quality of training when I went to high school.......

Mitch, you are comparing current public schools with schools you attended decades ago. That comparison would never get through an editorial review in a decent journal. It might be that the public schools in general have deteriorated somewhat during that period. The differences you observe might be related to things totally unrelated to geography.

Date: Oct 23, 2005

Mitch wrote:

... Policy makers place large fiscal bets based on misinterpretation of data (or ignoring data, or failing to even collect data).

Do you mean like the interpretation of evidence for WMD and the number of lives (not to mention the fiscal bets) that depend on that analysis?

Date: Oct 23, 2005

Sweeping generalization wrote:

Mitch, you are comparing current public schools with schools you attended decades ago. That comparison would never get through an editorial review in a decent journal. It might be that the public schools in general have deteriorated somewhat during that period. The differences you observe might be related to things totally unrelated to geography.

I thought I made that point too (the general slide in education). However, I also make the point that Mississippi is generally weaker educationally than most other states. I have many school age relatives in blue states, and the curriculum, expectations, and demands are just more rigorous in the public schools they attend.

With respect to what gets into "decent" peer-reviewed education journals, you'd be surprised!

Date: Oct 23, 2005

Mitch wrote:
I also make the point that Mississippi is generally weaker educationally than most other states

Do Southern Mississippi's teacher training programs still turn out the bulk of public school teachers in the state?

Date: Oct 23, 2005

Mitch wrote:

I am teaching a dual enrollment course at Oak Grove (Psy 110).

Mr. Mitch, Tell us a little about the standards you are enforcing in your "college" course at Oak Grove High School. I'd like to know how much reading, writing, and research are you requiring of Oak Grove's best and brightest?

Date: Oct 23, 2005

Lamar wrote:

Mitch wrote: I am teaching a dual enrollment course at Oak Grove (Psy 110). Mr. Mitch, Tell us a little about the standards you are enforcing in your "college" course at Oak Grove High School. I'd like to know how much reading, writing, and research are you requiring of Oak Grove's best and brightest?

It has been an interesting experience. Katrina put a damper on some of the experiences we had planned (a boat trip for Dolphin observation in the Gulf that the honors students also were to experience). The book I use is Nairne (the same one I use in campus classes--which is a mid-upper level text). The tests are about the same, except that at Oak Grove I am also requiring short essays in addition to MC (I have 13 students so I can do this). The distribution of grades was significantly different at Oak Grove. On campus, about 40% of students earn a D or F on the first exam. At Oak Grove, using the same materials and the same level of testing, only about 20% earned a D or C (no Fs). I was also going to require a research paper similar to the one I require in 110 honors (am I mean or what?), but Katrina limited the time I would have for re-writes and development, so I bagged it this time. As I do on campus, I was a bit generous scoring the first essays (as I informed them to their dismay), and the questions and expectations for this assessment component become tougher as we go along (I like to shape writing skills as I raise the bar through the semester).

The students reported that the 110 experience was initially quite intimidating (maybe it was just me), and that the reading and requirements are light years apart from their previous academic experiences. One thing they have learned early in the game (that is, before hitting Ole Miss, USM, or State - many are looking at Honors programs) what University level work is like--they were surprised but seem up to the challenge. I did find out how important it is to change the psychological space of a HS classroom to that of a university classroom in the first few class sessions. The routine, pace, interactions, and behavioral expectations are so different. My impression is that these students are representative of the top end of USM freshman students right out of high school--a bit naive, overestimating their abilities, but not yet jaded. The are actually kind of fun to teach (bright, articulate, pretty literate, and enthusiastic). Anyway, that is my assessment so far. Oh, one thing that is indentical to USM is that the kid who scored the highest (96%) in the class argued for more points!

Date: Oct 23, 2005

Mitch wrote:

It has been an interesting experience. ... Anyway, that is my assessment so far. Oh, one thing that is indentical to USM is that the kid who scored the highest (96%) in the class argued for more points!

Where (how) do I sign my kid up to take your class next semester? Like the AAUP leadership before you, you sir, are a class act!

Date: Oct 23, 2005

Warrior Princess wrote:

Where (how) do I sign my kid up to take your class next semester?

By all means, Princess, sign him/her up. We need the enrollment in order to help reach 20,000.

Date: Oct 23, 2005

Every little bit helps wrote:

Warrior Princess wrote: Where (how) do I sign my kid up to take your class next semester? By all means, Princess, sign him/her up. We need the enrollment in order to help reach 20,000.

Actually, I am not sure that this will help you reach your goal of 20,000 ELBH. Most students I am teaching seem to be going elsewhere in fact.

I hope that the next administration focuses on education quality, rather than quantity. I just returned from an accreditation site visit to an institution similar to ours in Illinois. At the top of their new strategic plan is the development of their faculty and doctoral students, and improvement (not expansion) of academic offerings and scholarship. Nowhere did it mention unattainable expansion goals, economic development, or unrealistic external funding (though it is a solid research extensive with good external funding). It is always sobering and refreshing to go to an institution that is doing it right.

Date: Oct 23, 2005

Mitch wrote:

I hope that the next administration focuses on education quality, rather than quantity. I just returned from an accreditation site visit to an institution similar to ours in Illinois. At the top of their new strategic plan is the development of their faculty and doctoral students, and improvement (not expansion) of academic offerings and scholarship. Nowhere did it mention unattainable expansion goals, economic development, or unrealistic external funding (though it is a solid research extensive with good external funding). It is always sobering and refreshing to go to an institution that is doing it right.

I second those remarks! This madness toward expansion could be USM's academic undoing.

Date: Oct 24, 2005

These are some interesting points about poverty and the often associated pathologies of school dropout ,illegitimate births,criminal behavior ,etc. I will note that many of the poor are deserving of society's help. Many however are not. The easy way out is for taxpayers to simply pay up and not hold the poor accountable for their behavior. We have the right to make these demands since we are paying the bills. Not to demand better is doing no one any favors.

Date: Oct 24, 2005

G.Franklin wrote:

These are some interesting points about poverty and the often associated pathologies of school dropout ,illegitimate births,criminal behavior ,etc. I will note that many of the poor are deserving of society's help. Many however are not. The easy way out is for taxpayers to simply pay up and not hold the poor accountable for their behavior. We have the right to make these demands since we are paying the bills. Not to demand better is doing no one any favors.

One useful move would be to hold the fathers of "illegitimate" children accountable. I'm amazed that no one has brought up the responsibility that such irresponsible men have to the State that they've saddled, by their careless self-indulgence, with eighteen years of support. In fact, has there been any mention of the men at all? I see lots of contemptuous blame for the women who, after all, will typically care for such children for two decades after the men who very possibly lied to them have danced away. (One could even ask if those blaming the women anonymously are themselves responsible for one or two abandoned children.)

Jameela

Date: Oct 24, 2005

A very good post.I agree completely