Still think it was a good idea to open the gulf campus? - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Nov 8, 2005

RE: Still think it was a good idea to open the gulf campus?

Date: Nov 8, 2005

So Mississippians of the past have not structured higher education delivery sytems in a logical way. duh

That does not mean that the system is beyond repair. Are we going to close any institutions? The answer is NO. There is too much political power above I-20.

Are we going to establish any new institutions? The answer is NO.

Are there needs that are not being met? The answer is YES. And the greatest of these needs are on the Gulf Coast.

It's time. It't time for a new approach for the Gulf Coast. With the devastated campus at GP it's time to look at the situation as opportunity for the state to try a new approach for delivery on the Gulf Coast.

Let the free market prevail. Assess higher education needs of this major population center and let any public or private institution in the state or nation offer to fulfill those needs.....in a Universities Center....in a relocated "campus", near I-10. Let the IHL establish the rules, let the free market prevail.

Sell or lease the Gulf Park campus. Invest in a new Universities Center and run as no one, even in Houston and Tulsa, have ever operated a Universities Center.

I believe that the people of this state can design and implement something new that can be economically implemented, yielding new teaching and research opportunities, for the coast, the state, and the reigion.

Think in a new box.

Date: Nov 8, 2005

Is "coastliner" Ken Malone?

Date: Nov 8, 2005

I still do not see why the new box that we need to think in must include a coast campus. Does every city of a certain size need a university? Kids can travel a bit from their home to their school -- many choose their school just for that reason.

Date: Nov 8, 2005

Northern wrote:

I still do not see why the new box that we need to think in must include a coast campus. Does every city of a certain size need a university? Kids can travel a bit from their home to their school -- many choose their school just for that reason.

Apparently USM is in the recycling business. Many citizens didn't seriously study in high school or didn't ever plan to attend college. Now they work days and realize they need an education to get a decent wage. USM is in the nontraditional student business. These people need university educations delivered to them so they can study, work and take care of their children. In my opinion most are not prepared for college work and that is driving USM's standards lower and lower. But, hey, the customer is always right. Right Coastliner?

Date: Nov 9, 2005

Northern wrote:

I still do not see why the new box that we need to think in must include a coast campus. Does every city of a certain size need a university? Kids can travel a bit from their home to their school -- many choose their school just for that reason.

The problem is that it isn't just "kids" who attend college any more. There are many working adults who may have left college after an associate's degree to work & who are now ready to advance in their profession. Moreover, graduate students are typically not "kids." For a lot of these people, giving up their day job (at least on a part-time basis) is not an option.

Consider the following population figures. (I picked the two counties contiguous to USM & MSU, along with the two coastal counties.) Now, ask yourself, "Which of these areas really needs a university?"

Pop. change 2000-2004 Est. Pop. 2004
--------------------- --------------
Oktibbeha Co. -3.7% 41,309
Lowndes Co. -1.8% 60,487

Forrest Co. 2.6% 74,469
Lamar Co. 10.7% 43,262

Harrison Co. 1.5% 192,383
Jackson Co. 3.1% 135,436

If I were IHL, I'd be thinking about relocating the entire MSU operation to Vancleave! It would put the engineering school in the most industrialized county in the state & put the forestry school in the part of the state with the largest timber products industry, among other things...

Date: Nov 9, 2005

Here's the real issue we're facing. There is a new breed of academic administrator who doesn't believe in personal responsibility.

For all the residents of MS who thought education was unimportant, that they could have a good life without a college degree, then good luck. They prioritized their lives and education was not a top priority. They went to work. They had children. They bought cars. They potentially bought houses or mobile homes. They made their choice.

Contrast this with the individuals who made education a top priority. Those who went to two years of junior college and then two years of college or university. They put off all of those life-changing events so that they could better position themselves for a good life. They made their choice.

Now, we are being led to believe that we should offer the first group a way out of their bad situation BUT we should not require the kind of investment from the first group that we did from the second group. Online programs, night programs, and the like are all about logging seat time so that the "student" can get his or her ticket punched. So that he or she can get credentialed. So that he or she can bail himself or herself out of the bad situation that he or she created for himself or herself.

But let's not require an immersion in education. Let's not require that education be the top priority. Let's make it so that education can be the fourth or fifth on the priority list and the individual can still obtain the diploma. Forget about the knowledge. The knowledge is not important. Only the piece of paper matters. Let's not require an actual mastery of subject matter. After all, these students are tired after a long day of work (Would you be willing to excuse a tired traditional undergrad who stayed out at the bars all night? After all, both individuals made choices...you just happen to agree with one choice and not the other.). Perhaps the effect would be stronger if those individuals who made "bad" choices were required to live out that choice or make a large sacrifice and actually "GO" back to school. For those who have made a "bad" choice, perhaps we should let them tell their children how important education is and how important it is to get a college degree. Maybe then their children would value education more highly than their parents did.

USM has become a Mickey Mouse institution, and higher education in MS has been devalued BECAUSE we do not require any real investment in education from many of our students. We do allow them to get their credentials on their timetable and on their terms. We have flooded the bachelor's degree pool with uneducated graduates who show those doing the hiring that there's a very marginal difference between a high school education and a college education in MS. That's why USM graduates are lucky to land jobs managing a Wal-Mart or a Home Depot. News Flash: a college degree isn't required for those jobs. USM has become a great place to get a decent high school education.

And now you want to spread our resources more thinly? You want to allow more people to get more degrees with less effort? With less sacrifice? You want to further flood the job market with uneducated graduates? You want to start a universities center so that everyone on the coast can have a college degree?

College isn't for everyone, or at least it shouldn't be. Under your plan, it won't be too long before you have to have a masters degree to serve fries at McDonald's.

Date: Nov 9, 2005

Personal Jesus wrote:

Here's the real issue we're facing. There is a new breed of academic administrator who doesn't believe in personal responsibility. For all the residents of MS who thought education was unimportant, that they could have a good life without a college degree, then good luck. They prioritized their lives and education was not a top priority. They went to work. They had children. They bought cars. They potentially bought houses or mobile homes. They made their choice. Contrast this with the individuals who made education a top priority. Those who went to two years of junior college and then two years of college or university. They put off all of those life-changing events so that they could better position themselves for a good life. They made their choice. Now, we are being led to believe that we should offer the first group a way out of their bad situation BUT we should not require the kind of investment from the first group that we did from the second group. Online programs, night programs, and the like are all about logging seat time so that the "student" can get his or her ticket punched. So that he or she can get credentialed. So that he or she can bail himself or herself out of the bad situation that he or she created for himself or herself. But let's not require an immersion in education. Let's not require that education be the top priority. Let's make it so that education can be the fourth or fifth on the priority list and the individual can still obtain the diploma. Forget about the knowledge. The knowledge is not important. Only the piece of paper matters. Let's not require an actual mastery of subject matter. After all, these students are tired after a long day of work (Would you be willing to excuse a tired traditional undergrad who stayed out at the bars all night? After all, both individuals made choices...you just happen to agree with one choice and not the other.). Perhaps the effect would be stronger if those individuals who made "bad" choices were required to live out that choice or make a large sacrifice and actually "GO" back to school. For those who have made a "bad" choice, perhaps we should let them tell their children how important education is and how important it is to get a college degree. Maybe then their children would value education more highly than their parents did. USM has become a Mickey Mouse institution, and higher education in MS has been devalued BECAUSE we do not require any real investment in education from many of our students. We do allow them to get their credentials on their timetable and on their terms. We have flooded the bachelor's degree pool with uneducated graduates who show those doing the hiring that there's a very marginal difference between a high school education and a college education in MS. That's why USM graduates are lucky to land jobs managing a Wal-Mart or a Home Depot. News Flash: a college degree isn't required for those jobs. USM has become a great place to get a decent high school education. And now you want to spread our resources more thinly? You want to allow more people to get more degrees with less effort? With less sacrifice? You want to further flood the job market with uneducated graduates? You want to start a universities center so that everyone on the coast can have a college degree? College isn't for everyone, or at least it shouldn't be. Under your plan, it won't be too long before you have to have a masters degree to serve fries at McDonald's.

Personal Jesus must have mind reading abilities. P.J. explained this institution's market share very well. Excellent post.

Date: Nov 9, 2005

P.J. makes many valid points, but overlooks the fact that the manager of Home Depot probably makes more than a full professor.

Date: Nov 9, 2005

As some enterprising faculty know only too well.

Date: Nov 9, 2005

Third Witch wrote:

P.J. makes many valid points, but overlooks the fact that the manager of Home Depot probably makes more than a full professor.

I did not overlook this fact. My post was concerned in part with the educational requirements for a particular job. Perhaps I should have referenced the possibility of having a masters degree becoming a necessity for playing professional sports.

Date: Nov 9, 2005

Personal Jesus wrote:

Online programs, night programs, and the like are all about logging seat time so that the "student" can get his or her ticket punched. So that he or she can get credentialed ...... We have flooded the bachelor's degree pool with uneducated graduates who show those doing the hiring that there's a very marginal difference between a high school education and a college education in MS.

PJ, do you think it's much different with many of our regular full-time on-campus undergraduate programs? I can't recall a time when Usm had a good reputation among Mississippi's high school guidance counselors across the state. They have known for many years what USNews learned only last year.

Date: Nov 9, 2005

Personal Jesus wrote:

College isn't for everyone, or at least it shouldn't be. Under your plan, it won't be too long before you have to have a masters degree to serve fries at McDonald's.

Thou paintest with too broad a brush, methinks, PJ.

Basically, you're saying that a person should get that university degree as a traditional student or be satisfied with a lifetime of inferior earnings & substandard working conditions. Is that how I read this?

People change over the course of their lives & very often a person discovers that they really have abilities only after working for a while. A great example is the person who takes the one-year vocational curriculum to become a licensed practical nurse, perhaps because their h.s. grades weren't so hot. After some years on the job, they discover that they really aren't any dumber than the registered nurses. The twist is that once they're 30-somethings, they do have kids, family responsibilities, mortgages, divorces & all the other impedimenta that don't burden most traditional students.

Yes, I agree that getting a university degree should require sacrifice. But at the same time, I see no reason to build artificial barriers just to create "sacrifice." Ultimately, the rigor of a degree program is determined by the classroom teacher, not a dean, not a VP, and not the president. And ultimately, the academic reputation of the University of Southern Mississippi hinges on issues such as grade inflation or expected learning outcomes at the classroom level as much as it hinges on whether Shelby wants an online executive MBA program for managers who already have more field experience than the professors who will teach them.

Date: Nov 9, 2005

Zing!

Date: Nov 9, 2005

Invictus wrote:

... Ultimately, the rigor of a degree program is determined by the classroom teacher, not a dean, not a VP, and not the president. And ultimately, the academic reputation of the University of Southern Mississippi hinges on issues such as grade inflation or expected learning outcomes at the classroom level as much as it hinges on whether Shelby wants an online executive MBA program for managers who already have more field experience than the professors who will teach them.

The deans and upper administration ARE putting pressure on faculty to inflate grades. They control the reward system. If it wasn't for the promotion and raise controls of the administration, faculty would have no reason to inflate grades to retain customers err... students.

A side point to what was posted, I think some posters are confusing "vocational training" with a "university education". The example was given pointing out the amount a Wal-Mart employee makes as if that determines what a university education is all about. If Mississippi needs vocational training schools then build them. But don't try to tell the citizens they can work, have a family and get a university education on the side when they have no time to read and contemplate. That just cheats the citizens and downgrades what a university education is. Of course, it is good business because now students need graduate school to get a real university education.

Date: Nov 9, 2005

Archive wrote:

I can't recall a time when Usm had a good reputation among Mississippi's high school guidance counselors across the state. They have known for many years what USNews learned only last year.

There's more than a grain of truth in what you say. All too often I have heard USM referred to as the "blue light special" of higher education in Mississippi. Lucas allowed a few departments that had national aspirations to achieve academic excellence while admist the surrounding sea of academic mediocrity. More recently, however the powers that be have squandered what little quality USM could be proud of in the quest for dollars and enrollment.

Date: Nov 9, 2005

I completed a B.A. cum laude with a three-year old child in tow. I completed an M.A. at age 38. Both in English, and there was another year of graduate work in history in there. I started a PhD but was too old, tired, and foreign-language impaired to finish it. I take great issue with the notion that only 18 year olds (who do not always appreciate the opportunity the have) should be going to college.
As for reading and contemplating, people who want to do that, do that, regardless of age or circumstance.

This whole argument was hashed out rather thoroughly sometime ago, and the same elitist agenda was put forth, that only the young full-time non-employed students are "real" students" and the old people should go home and fold the laundry.

Date: Nov 9, 2005

LVN wrote:

I completed a B.A. cum laude with a three-year old child in tow. I completed an M.A. at age 38. Both in English, and there was another year of graduate work in history in there. I started a PhD but was too old, tired, and foreign-language impaired to finish it. I take great issue with the notion that only 18 year olds (who do not always appreciate the opportunity the have) should be going to college. As for reading and contemplating, people who want to do that, do that, regardless of age or circumstance. This whole argument was hashed out rather thoroughly sometime ago, and the same elitist agenda was put forth, that only the young full-time non-employed students are "real" students" and the old people should go home and fold the laundry.

I meant no disrespect LVN. On the contrary I admire your great achievement. However, it's because I consider it a great achievement that you can't be used as the norm. The average students I meet taking your route work very hard, but can't achieve because of all their outside commitments. They don't have a life of reading and contemplation. They just want a raise or better paying job, not a life style change. But USM is accomodating them beacuse that's the customer.