Fourth Tier Question - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Jul 15, 2005

RE: Fourth Tier Question

Date: Jul 15, 2005

...had to come from an administrator...

RC

Date: Jul 15, 2005

Well, it was worth slogging through more of AtM's drivel for the sake of Stephen's really brilliant essays. (And sainthood -- my stars! Even the cats were impressed!)

Date: Jul 15, 2005

AtM/SoB/whoever,

A few thoughts about your "constructive" suggestions.

I agree with all your suggestions except for the loud and public proclamation that the day of Shelby Thames is over. What would that accomplish?

It would let everyone know that USM has a chance to recover--that USM might actually once again a good place for faculty, administrators, and staff to work, and a good place for students to get their education.

The public perceives that we have now lynched two presidents in a row.

It was the athletic supporters and the wannabe kingmakers in Hattiesburg who got rid of Horace Fleming. Shelby supporters like to blame his removal on the faculty.

If you were a hot young administrator on a fast carreer track, would you want to come into a situation that is perceived as ours? Chances are that a sharp candidate would dial up Shelby and talk with him about the situation on campus. Want to talk about that perception problem?

No prospective president of USM would ever call Shelby Thames for comment, unless he or she was a complete fool.

I don't really have much more to say. I have indeed done some bobbing and weaving, but it is very difficult to fight off a dozen or so attacks at the same time, and it is very difficult to convince some of you that at this point I couldn't care less about Shelby Thames one way or the other.

You're taking plenty of time not saying it. What you are calling "attacks" were requests for evidence and reasons to back up your assertions. You responded to nearly all of those requests with bull$hit and personal insults.

And if you really couldn't care less about Shelby Thames one way or another, why have you insisted that no one should proclaim the end of the Shelbyite era; why have you taken the Shelbyite line on Horace Fleming's departure; and why have you assumed that prospective USM presidents would ask Shelby Thames for advice?

I would like nothing better than to debate a single issue in a civilized manner.

Yeah, sure.

You know, if you're tired of trolling this board, fine. Leave. You probably do have much more important things to do than trolling. Just don't come back under still another handle, then get indignant when someone notices that Above the Mire is back, trolling once again, under a different name.

Robert Campbell

Date: Jul 16, 2005

I thoroughly studied ATM's post and now know esxactly how to satisfy ATM. This AAUP Message Board should be shut down, and the faculty should not write letters to the editor critical of SFT's administration. Faculty should cease discussing SFT's errors in management, much like Gary and Frank can't discuss these issues. The AAUP-USM should then disband.

If we follow these steps then the public will only hear positive things about USM from the USM Public Relations Department. This will lead to a positive national image.

I’m sure ATM will support these suggestions.

Date: Jul 16, 2005

I'll play Pollyanna again and say that I think the damage done to USM's national and international reputation by Shelby can be reversed more quickly and easily than AtM assumes. All it would take would be the arrival of a competent president who can win the confidence of the faculty and staff (i.e., the people who have been most vocal in opposing Shelby). Word gets around quickly in academe, and it wouldn't take too long before these people (faculty especially) told everyone within earshot at conferences that USM had really turned a corner with its new president and that things were so much better. I can even imagine a story in the Chronicle to balance some of the ones that have appeared over the past two years: "New President a Total Breath of Fresh Air at USM, Faculty Leaders Say." We have all read such articles before, and we have all heard of schools that had crazy presidents (University of Central Arkansas was one for many years, although Shelby made THAT guy seem competent) -- schools that bounced back once an intelligent, competent, trustworthy leader arrived on campus.

Date: Jul 16, 2005

New Day Dawns at USM, Faculty, Staff Assert

by Frank Kaznosnich, Chronicle Staff writer

The early retirement of President Shelby Thames in the late summer of 2005 and the speedy appointment of Frank Glamser as the new chief administrator of the embattled institution has made all the difference in the world, faculty and staff leaders contend.

"We were all stunned when the IHL appointed Frank, but very grateful, too," said Stephen Judd, a professor who had been a vocal critic of the policies of President Thames. "Frank knows better than just about anyone what can happen when a president doesn't listen, acts impulsively, and treats others with contempt and disrespect," Judd commented. "His actions so far indicate that he has learned all these lessons well. We've never had a president before who was so interested in getting the input of everyone before making a decision."

"There's a whole new atmosphere of campus these days," said Professor Amy Young of the USM Faculty Senate. "People are working together, consulting with one another, and trying to reverse the damage done by President Thames." Most staff members interviewed for this article agreed that the tone of the campus had changed radically for the better. "We no longer feel fearful and intimidated," one staffer said. "It also helped when Shelby's daughter stepped down right after he dad retired; suddenly we're a lot less worried about nepotism than we used to be."

Not everyone is happy, however. Roy Klumb, who recently took a position as a janitor at USM after being fired from his position on the statewide college board, seems nostalgic for the old days. "Me n' Shelby, we was tight," Klumb commented. "That man knew how to knock heads and kick butts, n' that's the way you gotta treat people to get any work outta them."

Outside observers, though, think that USM may have turned a crucial corner. Robert Campbell, professor of psychology at Clemson University who has followed events closely at USM for the past several years, sounded optimistic. "Shelby did one boneheaded thing after another," Campbell commented. "There's nowhere for USM to go but up; no one could be as grossly incompetent as Shelby was."

Date: Jul 16, 2005

Joker wrote:

The AAUP-USM should then disband.

Joker - Surely you jest. Non- adherence to AAUP principles is the reason USM is having these problems. As AAUP goes, so goes USM. If AAUP-USM disappears, USM's chances of regaining even third tier status disappears. AAUP principles are nothing more than a codified collection of academic wisdom and tested applications. USM has a huge mountain to climb if it hopes to ever regain even a speck of academic respectability.

Date: Jul 16, 2005

Joker wrote:

I thoroughly studied ATM's post and now know esxactly how to satisfy ATM. This AAUP Message Board should be shut down, and the faculty should not write letters to the editor critical of SFT's administration. Faculty should cease discussing SFT's errors in management, much like Gary and Frank can't discuss these issues. The AAUP-USM should then disband. If we follow these steps then the public will only hear positive things about USM from the USM Public Relations Department. This will lead to a positive national image. I’m sure ATM will support these suggestions.

I am reminded of the quote from Godfather III, "every time I think I'm out, they pull me back in."

The line that I've been using for over a year now, "bad decision, lie, cover-up, repeat the cycle" appears to be as approprate in July of 2005 as it was in March of 2004.

What I believe AtM wants is revisionist history. That's what Shelby wants. AtM's long-winded diatribes can be summarized with "Shelby's out, you got what you wanted (but only because I helped you given that you created this impossible situation). Now be good little campers and let's continue along the very same path that got us here."

It is the lying that got us mired here and it is the lying that will keep us mired here. Shelby may be irrelevant but his house of cards provides no foundation. The truth may not be pretty to people like AtM, but it is the only foundation from which to build.

Date: Jul 16, 2005

20/20 wrote:

Joker - Surely you jest. Non- adherence to AAUP principles is the reason USM is having these problems. As AAUP goes, so goes USM. If AAUP-USM disappears, USM's chances of regaining even third tier status disappears. AAUP principles are nothing more than a codified collection of academic wisdom and tested applications. USM has a huge mountain to climb if it hopes to ever regain even a speck of academic respectability.

Yes, I jest, but this seems to be what ATM is after. ATM is long winded, but only wants one thing--for faculty to SHUT-UP.

Date: Jul 16, 2005

Joker wrote:

20/20 wrote: Joker - Surely you jest. Non- adherence to AAUP principles is the reason USM is having these problems. As AAUP goes, so goes USM. If AAUP-USM disappears, USM's chances of regaining even third tier status disappears. AAUP principles are nothing more than a codified collection of academic wisdom and tested applications. USM has a huge mountain to climb if it hopes to ever regain even a speck of academic respectability. Yes, I jest, but this seems to be what ATM is after. ATM is long winded, but only wants one thing--for faculty to SHUT-UP.

If it isn't obvious that I disagree with and oppose the aaup and its policies, please let me eliminate any doubt. I absolute disagree with the "no quarter" labor union approach of the aaup! I have tried my best to make it clear that I feel that this policy has done far more damage that good if it has actually accomplished anything of value at all. Have I not been clear about that?

If I wanted the faculty to shut up, I would be addressing the faculty. The aaup isn't the faculty. I know how many faculty members there are, and I know how many aaup members there are. That the aaup continues to try to spin the idea that it speak for the faculty in its entirety is ethically dishonest.

Would I like to get the aaup and this message board to SHUT UP, as you so eloquently put it? Heck yes! Are you just now beginning to get it? I think you have done quite enough damage, and it is time that you eased up on that stupid "no quarter" campaign. We have a lot of rebuilding to do, and it can't be done successfully if you continue with your Jimmy Hoffa mentality.

I have called for peace and cooperation, and you won't budge off your obsession with SFT. Damn, folks, in a few years people won't even remember who Shelby Thames was. The question now for you is. should the sign out front by the rose garden read "The University of Southern Mississippi" or should it read "USM - AAUP". I assure you that it will never be the latter.

I keep trying to tell you that the only "side" I am on is the one that detests having "sides" in the first place. Shelby is going. I agree that he should be going. It is time that you stop your obsessing with him and open yourselves to the idea joining in with the rest of us to put it back together. Why do you insist on being so adamant about "your way or the highway"? There is a large unorganized group of USM supporters who would like to get own with the future. We are very impatient with the lack of progress over the last few years. You are welcome to join as individuals, but you are going to have to leave your faction out of it. If we are to succeed, there won't be room for factions - Shelby factions, aaup factions or any other kind of self serving agendas.

Do you serve the labor union, do you server the university under fair leadership, or do you serve yourselves? Whichever it is it's your choice and your right to make the choice. Ethics often have shades of gray, but sometimes not.

Date: Jul 16, 2005

Above the Mire wrote:

Ethics often have shades of gray, but sometimes not.

Shady ethics created this situation.

Date: Jul 16, 2005

Above the Mire wrote:

If it isn't obvious that I disagree with and oppose the aaup and its policies, please let me eliminate any doubt. I absolute disagree with the "no quarter" labor union approach of the aaup! ... Do you serve the labor union, do you server the university under fair leadership, or do you serve yourselves? ...

ATM - "AAUP=union" is a red herring, and I suspect that you, my friend, are a "red-baiter," to boot! If you sincerely think it's time to move past "the obsession" with SFT, you might consider not repeating his favorite lie about the AAUP.

Date: Jul 16, 2005

AtM, since Mississippi is a "right-to-work" state, collective bargaining is not an option for public employees. Ergo, AAUP is not a labor union.

In fact, AAUP is not a labor union in states that engage in collective bargaining. In some of those states, AAUP is recognized as the collective bargaining agent for university faculty. But, again, that does not make AAUP a labor union.

When you get your facts straight, try screwing your head on again & see if the impulses going to what passes for your frontal lobe are the same.

You are "reasoning" from incorrect assumptions. Period.

P.S. I am not an AAUP member. I just bothered to read a little bit about AAUP.

Date: Jul 16, 2005

I have to now label ATM another troll. The following statements made by ATM have been rebutted over and over whenever they are made by trolls. ATM says he wants reconciliation. Do the statements below sound like he speaks the truth or is ATM a troll? You decide.

ATM: I absolute disagree with the "no quarter" labor union approach of the aaup!

Response: “No quarter” is not an official campaign of the AAUP-USM. It is the sentiment of many posters on this free and open board. AAUP is not a union in spite of what SFT called it.

ATM: Would I like to get the aaup and this message board to SHUT UP, as you so eloquently put it? Heck yes! Are you just now beginning to get it?

Response: ATM wants to stop free and open discussion. There is a group in Iraq who thinks the same way.

ATM: I have called for peace and cooperation, and you won't budge off your obsession with SFT.

Response: Check the threads and notice the only time the past two years of SFT mismanagement is being discussed is when debating with trolls who lie about what happened. If the trolls would stop so would these debates about the past 3 years under SFT.

ATM: …should the sign out front by the rose garden read "The University of Southern Mississippi" or should it read "USM - AAUP".

Response: Trolls have been corrected many times before on this issue. The AAUP doesn’t want to run USM. That is a SFT lie you are repeating.

ATM: Why do you insist on being so adamant about "your way or the highway"?

Response: Another lie. AAUP has no agenda. This is a strawman argument.

ATM: If we are to succeed, there won't be room for factions - Shelby factions, aaup factions or any other kind of self serving agendas.

Response: Again the “self serving agenda” lie. How many trolls used those exact same words?

ATM: Do you serve the labor union, do you server the university under fair leadership, or do you serve yourselves?

Response: All the lies in one sentence: unions, agendas and self-serving.

By the power invested in me, I do declare ATM a TROLL, with all the rights and privileges there to appertaining.

Date: Jul 16, 2005

AtM/SoB/et al.,

If I wanted the faculty to shut up, I would be addressing the faculty. The aaup isn't the faculty. I know how many faculty members there are, and I know how many aaup members there are. That the aaup continues to try to spin the idea that it speak for the faculty in its entirety is ethically dishonest. Would I like to get the aaup and this message board to SHUT UP, as you so eloquently put it? Heck yes! Are you just now beginning to get it?

Don't worry, you'll be telling the rest of the USM faculty to shut up soon enough. (You may be doing it already, if you have access to the right channels of communication.)

I keep trying to tell you that the only "side" I am on is the one that detests having "sides" in the first place. Shelby is going. I agree that he should be going. It is time that you stop your obsessing with him and open yourselves to the idea joining in with the rest of us to put it back together.

Your remarks yesterday about Shelby's fatal mistake were terminally vague. You couldn't bring yourself to spit out exactly what Shelby had done wrong. You just waved ambiguously and incoherently in the direction of remarks made by another contributor. It's really not hard to identify things that SFT did wrong. Are you having trouble being specific because you still believe he was right?

There will keep being sides till SFT is gone. Quite possibly afterwards, depending on how things go.

If you are really interested in minimizing conflict, you should concede to the USM faculty that you and your allies don't know how to run the university. Then get out of the way, so USM can put together a fair, effective, responsible administration and begin rebuidlling.

Robert Campbell

Date: Jul 16, 2005

AtM et al.,

One further remark of yours tells the entire academic world that you don't get it:

Damn, folks, in a few years people won't even remember who Shelby Thames was.

Shelby Thames will go down in history as one of the worst university presidents ever. He will be featured in management textbooks and ed leadership textbooks.

Maybe you are hoping that SFT will be forgotten, so people who are dependent on him can keep their grip on power. For if he is widely remembered, his former associates will be considered unfit for administrative positions just about everywhere.

Robert Campbell

PS. In my previous post, I should have typed rebuilding...

Date: Jul 16, 2005

Robert Campbell wrote:

AtM et al., One further remark of yours tells the entire academic world that you don't get it: Damn, folks, in a few years people won't even remember who Shelby Thames was. Shelby Thames will go down in history as one of the worst university presidents ever. He will be featured in management textbooks and ed leadership textbooks. Maybe you are hoping that SFT will be forgotten, so people who are dependent on him can keep their grip on power. For if he is widely remembered, his former associates will be considered unfit for administrative positions just about everywhere. Robert Campbell PS. In my previous post, I should have typed rebuilding...

I really don't care about Shelby. It is you who fears his being forgotten. If he is, you won't have a life. You should love Shelby. He'd the only thing that keeps your life from being a complete void.

Date: Jul 16, 2005

Troll Alerter wrote:

I have to now label ATM another troll. The following statements made by ATM have been rebutted over and over whenever they are made by trolls. ATM says he wants reconciliation. Do the statements below sound like he speaks the truth or is ATM a troll? You decide. ATM: I absolute disagree with the "no quarter" labor union approach of the aaup! Response: “No quarter” is not an official campaign of the AAUP-USM. It is the sentiment of many posters on this free and open board. AAUP is not a union in spite of what SFT called it. ATM: Would I like to get the aaup and this message board to SHUT UP, as you so eloquently put it? Heck yes! Are you just now beginning to get it? Response: ATM wants to stop free and open discussion. There is a group in Iraq who thinks the same way. ATM: I have called for peace and cooperation, and you won't budge off your obsession with SFT. Response: Check the threads and notice the only time the past two years of SFT mismanagement is being discussed is when debating with trolls who lie about what happened. If the trolls would stop so would these debates about the past 3 years under SFT. ATM: …should the sign out front by the rose garden read "The University of Southern Mississippi" or should it read "USM - AAUP". Response: Trolls have been corrected many times before on this issue. The AAUP doesn’t want to run USM. That is a SFT lie you are repeating. ATM: Why do you insist on being so adamant about "your way or the highway"? Response: Another lie. AAUP has no agenda. This is a strawman argument. ATM: If we are to succeed, there won't be room for factions - Shelby factions, aaup factions or any other kind of self serving agendas. Response: Again the “self serving agenda” lie. How many trolls used those exact same words? ATM: Do you serve the labor union, do you server the university under fair leadership, or do you serve yourselves? Response: All the lies in one sentence: unions, agendas and self-serving. By the power invested in me, I do declare ATM a TROLL, with all the rights and privileges there to appertaining.

Gollleeee, TA. You are really the sharpest blade in the pack aren't you. Everybody else knew I was a "troll" from the minute I wote the opening message on this 6 page thread. I mean, Dude how did I give myself away?

Date: Jul 16, 2005

Robert Campbell wrote:

AtM/SoB/whoever, A few thoughts about your "constructive" suggestions. I agree with all your suggestions except for the loud and public proclamation that the day of Shelby Thames is over. What would that accomplish? It would let everyone know that USM has a chance to recover--that USM might actually once again a good place for faculty, administrators, and staff to work, and a good place for students to get their education. The public perceives that we have now lynched two presidents in a row. It was the athletic supporters and the wannabe kingmakers in Hattiesburg who got rid of Horace Fleming. Shelby supporters like to blame his removal on the faculty. If you were a hot young administrator on a fast carreer track, would you want to come into a situation that is perceived as ours? Chances are that a sharp candidate would dial up Shelby and talk with him about the situation on campus. Want to talk about that perception problem? No prospective president of USM would ever call Shelby Thames for comment, unless he or she was a complete fool. I don't really have much more to say. I have indeed done some bobbing and weaving, but it is very difficult to fight off a dozen or so attacks at the same time, and it is very difficult to convince some of you that at this point I couldn't care less about Shelby Thames one way or the other. You're taking plenty of time not saying it. What you are calling "attacks" were requests for evidence and reasons to back up your assertions. You responded to nearly all of those requests with bull$hit and personal insults. And if you really couldn't care less about Shelby Thames one way or another, why have you insisted that no one should proclaim the end of the Shelbyite era; why have you taken the Shelbyite line on Horace Fleming's departure; and why have you assumed that prospective USM presidents would ask Shelby Thames for advice? I would like nothing better than to debate a single issue in a civilized manner. Yeah, sure. You know, if you're tired of trolling this board, fine. Leave. You probably do have much more important things to do than trolling. Just don't come back under still another handle, then get indignant when someone notices that Above the Mire is back, trolling once again, under a different name. Robert Campbell

You are an absolute joke, Campbell.

Date: Jul 16, 2005

Joker wrote:

I thoroughly studied ATM's post and now know esxactly how to satisfy ATM. This AAUP Message Board should be shut down, and the faculty should not write letters to the editor critical of SFT's administration. Faculty should cease discussing SFT's errors in management, much like Gary and Frank can't discuss these issues. The AAUP-USM should then disband. If we follow these steps then the public will only hear positive things about USM from the USM Public Relations Department. This will lead to a positive national image. I’m sure ATM will support these suggestions.

To shut down this board and disband the aaup would be very constructive. The other stuff is as big a joke as the alias you selected.

Date: Jul 16, 2005

USM Sympathizer wrote:

I'll play Pollyanna again and say that I think the damage done to USM's national and international reputation by Shelby can be reversed more quickly and easily than AtM assumes. All it would take would be the arrival of a competent president who can win the confidence of the faculty and staff (i.e., the people who have been most vocal in opposing Shelby). Word gets around quickly in academe, and it wouldn't take too long before these people (faculty especially) told everyone within earshot at conferences that USM had really turned a corner with its new president and that things were so much better. I can even imagine a story in the Chronicle to balance some of the ones that have appeared over the past two years: "New President a Total Breath of Fresh Air at USM, Faculty Leaders Say." We have all read such articles before, and we have all heard of schools that had crazy presidents (University of Central Arkansas was one for many years, although Shelby made THAT guy seem competent) -- schools that bounced back once an intelligent, competent, trustworthy leader arrived on campus.

You seem to be a reasonable person, and I would like to work with you on putting our institution back together. I will be looking to join whatever movement is formed that supports that cause. I hope to meet you there along with the few others on this board who have the same desires.

As far as the "No Quarter" group -- I really don't care. You will be left behind with your hatred du jour reminiscing about the good old days when you had Shelby to justify your misery.

Date: Jul 16, 2005

Above the Mire wrote:

To shut down this board and disband the aaup would be very constructive. ...

ATM, if you are successful in this endeavor then we need you on our team. Our insurgent efforts in Iraq are getting more difficult. Like the AAUP the elected government is allowing the people to say what they think. Our efforts to intimidate them don’t seem to be working.

Please contact us as soon as possible if you are able to shut down this board. We have been following your post and can truthfully say, “Your are our kind of guy”.

Date: Jul 16, 2005

I agree with Troll Alerter. ATM admitted he is just a troll. Don't feed the trolls.

Date: Jul 16, 2005

Don't worry this board will have a long life. With the petition to keep Shelby as long as we can going very successfully, I think SFT will gain at least an additional 3 years. The tribe of Hattiesburg will have spoken loud and clear.

Date: Jul 16, 2005

Above the Mire wrote:

Gollleeee, TA. You are really the sharpest blade in the pack aren't you.

"sharpest blade in the pack." How utterly profound. This must be the same troll that rattled on yesterday about a flea and an elephant or something like that. I guess it is the same troll. They all say the same thing. Over and over.

Date: Jul 16, 2005

Troll Patrol wrote:

Above the Mire wrote: Gollleeee, TA. You are really the sharpest blade in the pack aren't you. "sharpest blade in the pack." How utterly profound. This must be the same troll that rattled on yesterday about a flea and an elephant or something like that. I guess it is the same troll. They all say the same thing. Over and over.

Amazing powers of deduction. And you are teaching our children?

Date: Jul 16, 2005

LeftASAP wrote:

I agree with Troll Alerter. ATM admitted he is just a troll. Don't feed the trolls.

Didn't admit I was "just" a troll. I proclaimed that I was A troll. Why should I deny it? Darned guys. I disagree with you, and I think you did some things wrong. How does that make me all those bad things you've called me? Also, how does all this opposition figure in with Amy Young's freedom of speech statement?

Date: Jul 16, 2005

Insurgent wrote:

Above the Mire wrote: To shut down this board and disband the aaup would be very constructive. ... ATM, if you are successful in this endeavor then we need you on our team. Our insurgent efforts in Iraq are getting more difficult. Like the AAUP the elected government is allowing the people to say what they think. Our efforts to intimidate them don’t seem to be working. Please contact us as soon as possible if you are able to shut down this board. We have been following your post and can truthfully say, “Your are our kind of guy”.

I really don't have very high expectations in that regard. There will always be bathroom walls that need writing on.

Date: Jul 16, 2005

Above the Mire wrote:

The question now for you is. should the sign out front by the rose garden read "The University of Southern Mississippi" or should it read "USM - AAUP". I assure you that it will never be the latter.

I thought that this was already settled.

Hasn't it been decided that it will be Thames University once all of the street names are announced?