John Donne growing in popularity - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Jun 12, 2005

RE: John Donne growing in popularity

Date: Jun 12, 2005

I dont think Dick questioned the greatness of Donne (ok, initially he did but he says only to draw out the truth); only our apparent obsession with his work due to what he [Dick] see's as an unhealthy regard of Stringer.

Date: Jun 12, 2005

Well, it was all rather ugly and pointless, and distressed some people (got some emails) far more than was shown on the board. So whoever it is, you accomplished your purpose of being "clever" or whatever the goal was.

Date: Jun 12, 2005

wandering uterus wrote:

The problem is that SFT knows a lot about the pre-1985 history of USM. If you read Exit 13, you'll find that he is well-versed in McCain's leadership style. While I am no fan of SFT, he knows exactly what he's doing - turning USM's clock back 40 years or so. What he needed to learn was the post-1985 history. I am afraid that even that would not have been enough. I suspect that even if Lucas were still president, USM faculty would still be unsatisfied. USM faculty seem hell-bent on proving that they are the highest quality scholars and researchers in the state and having everyone acknowledge it. This point has not, is not, and never will be true on the whole. As part of my training in psychology, I took a course on organizational dynamics. The structure of an organization must be maintained in order for the whole to continue functioning properly. UM and MSU were designed to be the "flagship" institutions, focusing on research. USM, MUW, JSU, MVSU, ASU, and DSU were designed as teaching schools. Now USM wants to be in the research tier, but Mississippi doesn't have room for any more research institutions. USM is #3 and will continue to be #3 as long as the people of this state have no real use for research.

WU,

The problem with your analysis is that nearly every university has changed over time. Back when the IHL Board was created, both Ole Miss and MSU were far less research oriented than they are now. Should they be compelled to revert to the priorities they had back then, so the structure of the organization (i.e., the entire system of 8 universities) can keep functioning properly? Or, since the people of Mississippi have no real use for research, should Ole Miss and Miss State also be discouraged from doing any more of it?

Would you argue that Clemson should put a stop to all faculty research except in Agriculture and Engineering, because until the 1970s the liberal arts, the social sciences, even some of the natural sciences were there strictly for instructional purposes?

Robert Campbell

PS. You haven't addressed the irony of Thames pushing USM back into a strictly instructional role, when he personally despises undergraduate teaching and values only those faculty who operate industrial research labs on campus.

Date: Jun 12, 2005

LVN wrote:

detective, are you sure? The Nardo I just googled has a tremendously respectable vita and has published on Donne and Milton. And has books, not just 25 articles.

I know Professor Nardo, and she is WAY too smart, and has WAY too much taste, ever to claim that Donne is a "no talent hack." I suspect the person is a "specialist" in American literature (if the claim to be a professor can be believed at all).

Date: Jun 12, 2005

wandering uterus wrote:

USM faculty seem hell-bent on proving that they are the highest quality scholars and researchers in the state and having everyone acknowledge it. This point has not, is not, and never will be true on the whole. As part of my training in psychology, I took a course on organizational dynamics. The structure of an organization must be maintained in order for the whole to continue functioning properly. UM and MSU were designed to be the "flagship" institutions, focusing on research. USM, MUW, JSU, MVSU, ASU, and DSU were designed as teaching schools. Now USM wants to be in the research tier, but Mississippi doesn't have room for any more research institutions. USM is #3 and will continue to be #3 as long as the people of this state have no real use for research.

WU,

Here's something I've sometimes thought about: Why not make tenure transferable within state systems? In other words, let's assume that someone (Professor A) starts out at USM but really distinguishes himself as a researcher. Let's say that another person (Professor B) starts out at UM but, after doing enough research to get tenure, slacks off for the rest of his career. If UM is the "research" school and USM is the "teaching" school, then, after a period of assessment, it seems to make sense that Professor A should move to UM and Professor B should move to USM. The system of tenure would not be violated; Professor A would be rewarded for his efforts and would have a job at a place more suitable to his talents; and Professor B would also have a job at a place more suitable to his talents. Everyone knows of cases of people who get hired at a big-name place, do enough to get tenure there, and then coast for the rest of their careers; likewise, everyone knows of people who get hired at smaller places, work like crazy, and yet are still stuck at the smaller places. The solution I have outlined would provide incentives both to Professor A and to Professor B to be as productive as possible, and the system of tenure would not be compromised.

Date: Jun 12, 2005

Doctor Mandelet wrote:

...Everyone knows of cases of people who get hired at a big-name place, do enough to get tenure there, and then coast for the rest of their careers; likewise, everyone knows of people who get hired at smaller places, work like crazy, and yet are still stuck at the smaller places.

I must have been sheltered because I don't know of "...cases of people who get hired at a big-name place, do enough to get tenure there, and then coast for the rest of their careers...” I do know of professors in the experimental sciences who were unable to keep up in laboratory research once they reached 60 years old and devoted themselves to teaching and service. But with their workload I would hardly call it "coasting". In fact it helped the overall performance of their department by freeing younger faculty from the burden of a heavy teaching load and allowing them to establish their research programs.

Date: Jun 12, 2005

LeftASAP wrote:

I must have been sheltered because I don't know of "...cases of people who get hired at a big-name place, do enough to get tenure there, and then coast for the rest of their careers...” I do know of professors in the experimental sciences who were unable to keep up in laboratory research once they reached 60 years old and devoted themselves to teaching and service. But with their workload I would hardly call it "coasting". In fact it helped the overall performance of their department by freeing younger faculty from the burden of a heavy teaching load and allowing them to establish their research programs.

I think we all know of people at "big name" schools who have relatively modest publication records compared with some people at "smaller" schools. I can think of a number of people at USM (I am not at USM, by the way) who have much better publication records than people in comparable departments at "higher-tiered" schools.

Date: Jun 12, 2005

PS:

Sometimes the situation I have described occurs because people hired in one decade (say, the late 60s) were tenured and promoted according to relatively modest standards that simply no longer apply. Thus, it is now very possible to have a "Full Professor" with a very modest publication record sitting in judgment on an untenured "Assistant Professor" whose research record is already much stronger than the former's is ever likely to be.

Date: Jun 12, 2005

DM wrote:

PS: Sometimes the situation I have described occurs because people hired in one decade (say, the late 60s) were tenured and promoted according to relatively modest standards that simply no longer apply. Thus, it is now very possible to have a "Full Professor" with a very modest publication record sitting in judgment on an untenured "Assistant Professor" whose research record is already much stronger than the former's is ever likely to be.

Times and resources do change. At USM the demand for pubs was not as high in the late 60's and early 70's and the universities resources were slim to none. The administration was putting in a nickel and demanding a dollar song.

The number of pubs is not the only way to evaluate. Quality must also be considered. But I was really objecting to your wording of the prof "coasting" after tenure.

Date: Jun 12, 2005

LeftASAP wrote:

The number of pubs is not the only way to evaluate. Quality must also be considered. But I was really objecting to your wording of the prof "coasting" after tenure.

Sorry; didn't mean to offend. I do know of people, though, at schools ranked much more highly than USM who have done much less than some people at USM (by any standard of measurement). "Coasting" may not have been the best word, but they are definitely working less hard than some folks at "smaller" schools (or at least producing much less). I think this perception helps feed into the common person's perception that some professors have a cushy life. To be honest, some do: they have tenure, they teach their classes, and in some cases that is about it. These are not the sort of folks who should probably continue to have tenure at top-tier schools. Hence the push now in many states for "post-tenure review." The suggestion I outlined above is another (perhaps better) way of dealing with the problem.

Date: Jun 12, 2005

Let's not kid ourselves. There are plenty of associate profs at higher tiered schools who have retired on the job. Whether it is because of a lack of incentives or a plethora of consulting opportunities, it happens quite often, regardless of resources provided by the university in question.

That's my big problem with the tenure system: as long as these people pretend to do a little research and meet their classes and service assignments, you can't get rid of them. They're taking a slot that could be filled by an academically young, motivated assistant prof.

Date: Jun 12, 2005

LVN wrote:

Well, it was all rather ugly and pointless, and distressed some people (got some emails) far more than was shown on the board. So whoever it is, you accomplished your purpose of being "clever" or whatever the goal was.

Boo hoo. Cry me a river.

Date: Jun 12, 2005

Warning the trolls are out tonight. Don't feed the trolls.

Date: Jun 12, 2005

Troll Alert wrote:

Warning the trolls are out tonight. Don't feed the trolls.

Warning: Losers are running around trying to soften the blow of realistic responses to infantile comments.

Date: Jun 12, 2005

Loser Alert wrote:

Troll Alert wrote: Warning the trolls are out tonight. Don't feed the trolls. Warning: Losers are running around trying to soften the blow of realistic responses to infantile comments.

if only we could see more mature responses like "boo hoo cry me a river" or "losers." yessiree, you scored big with those two alright. yer tough and savvy.

Date: Jun 12, 2005

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Date: Jun 12, 2005

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Another of my favorite quotations:

Man proposes but God disposes.

Likewise:

Life is what happens while you were making other plans.

Date: Jun 12, 2005

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Date: Jun 12, 2005

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Date: Jun 12, 2005

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Shelby Thames is your boss for another two years. He will make you pay for your insolence. Shelby Thames is your boss for another two years. He will make you pay for your insolence. Shelby Thames is your boss for another two years. He will make you pay for your insolence. Shelby Thames is your boss for another two years. He will make you pay for your insolence. Shelby Thames is your boss for another two years. He will make you pay for your insolence. Shelby Thames is your boss for another two years. He will make you pay for your insolence. Shelby Thames is your boss for another two years. He will make you pay for your insolence. Shelby Thames is your boss for another two years. He will make you pay for your insolence. Shelby Thames is your boss for another two years. He will make you pay for your insolence. Shelby Thames is your boss for another two years. He will make you pay for your insolence. Shelby Thames is your boss for another two years. He will make you pay for your insolence. Shelby Thames is your boss for another two years. He will make you pay for your insolence. Shelby Thames is your boss for another two years. He will make you pay for your insolence.

Date: Jun 12, 2005

While I won't feed the troll, and USMTTT is a troll. I do want to say that from what I hear, his last remark may very well be a point to consider and take as a warning.

I've heard, but cannot reveal my source, sorry, that SFT plans some nasty retaliation toward faculty members. Keep your guard up.

Date: Jun 12, 2005

Oppsey, I meant to say USITTT. Sorry about that.

Date: Jun 12, 2005

Dang, someone put a spike in my drinking water, that should be oopsey.

I think I'll just go tuck my little head under my wing and hope tomorrow is a better day for all.

Date: Jun 12, 2005

Little Bird wrote:

I've heard, but cannot reveal my source, sorry, that SFT plans some nasty retaliation toward faculty members. Keep your guard up.

LB,

Do you mean to say that Shelby would go before the Faculty Senate and the press and tell a bald-faced lie? I am shocked, shocked!

Date: Jun 12, 2005

Little Bird wrote:

I've heard, but cannot reveal my source, sorry, that SFT plans some nasty retaliation toward faculty members. Keep your guard up.

PS,

Are you at liberty to say what kind of "nasty retaliation" he is allegedly planning?

Date: Jun 12, 2005

Little Bird wrote:

While I won't feed the troll, and USMTTT is a troll. I do want to say that from what I hear, his last remark may very well be a point to consider and take as a warning.
I've heard, but cannot reveal my source, sorry, that SFT plans some nasty retaliation toward faculty members. Keep your guard up.

He can do that. He can hurt, slash, ruin and destroy. He can damage and wreck. We already know that. What would be interesting to see is whether he can heal, forgive, build, create, grow and leave things better. By age 70, a person really ought to start thinking about their legacy in the world. I know I'm thinking about mine.

Date: Jun 12, 2005

PS and if the object of that was to scare people, it won't work. Everybody I know is already about as scared as they're gonna get, maxed out scared and doing their jobs anyway. Anymore scaring is just excess, wasted energy.

Date: Jun 12, 2005

Could that have been Shelby having a breakdown?

Date: Jun 12, 2005

USM Sympathizer-- No, I can't say, all I know is my source stated that SFT was going after certian people to destroy them. And would he go before the Fac Sen and media and tell a bold faced lie? Do bears go in the woods?

TW--No, I didn't post that to scare anyone, just as a warning. I truly wish I knew more, but the fact is I don't.