No problem left -- I just got up too and more than likely took it the wrong way.

Messenger wrote:

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Gracie's Mother wrote: My visit here is causing me to wonder if we can reach an agreement to try and compromise.  Gracies Mother, You may tell your King that we do not have the authority to negotiate and reach a compromise. That decision can be made only by the faculty members at all of the major universities across the country. The issues at hand are bigger than the both of us. Messenger

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I'll be happy to do just that.  My husband and I were out to dinner lated last night, and I am going to be busy running errands much of the day.  I'm sure that many of your colleagues will consider this to be abosolute proof that I'm a "troll", but what can I say?  Believe it of not I do have a life outside this message board.

In the meantime, why don't you scroll back up this series of messages and try reading with an attitude that I might just be sincere.

Searching, searching, searching for the middle ground
I know it's not there
But I don't really care
Because it feels so good
To be understood
That I am searching for the middle ground

Take your lunch, a canteen of water, and some toilet paper because you are in for a long quest. The joke is, if you find the middle ground, they will quickly jerk it away and move in another place that is hard to find. The organized community drew first blood. If you are part of the community and do not agree with what those organizers did, then speak up, apologize for being silent, and the middle ground will be everywhere. It has not happened, no poster has made such a statement, and it will not happen. So either battle or lay down, or just keep searching for that elusive butterfly of "the middle ground".

USM Sympathizer Asks:  

GM,

Would you be willing at least to respond to the excellent points made above by another poster about USM faculty productivity?  You, after all, suggested that many USM faculty regard productivity as a four-letter word; the other poster demonstrated (irrefutably, it seemed to me) that USM faculty have in fact been far more productive than faculty at other state universities in MS.  So far you haven't responded to his point, even though I've tried to ask -- twice -- as nicely as I know how.  If you could at least respond to that point, we might be in a better position to continue the discussion.  Thanks.

GM Replies:  This was one of the suggestions that I offered at your request.  IF you are indeed already open to this, then the suggestion is mute.  This was a suggestion not an accusation.

I am one of the "outsiders" who has been active on this board.  I am very close to honoring the request of one of the posters who said it was time for those on the "inside" to take up the mantle of leadership and begin building around Shelby Thames so that there will be a USM to be proud of when the new administration is selected.  I am going to bow out because my small role is almost done and I believe that it is time for the faculty to control its own destiny.  That said, I feel compelled to comment on the interaction with Gracie's Mother.  If we assume (and I know that is a big "if" given the number of chain pullers on the website) that he/she is sincere, then there is a certain amount of aggression targeted towards him/her.  It comes in the form of asking Gracie's Mother to defend a position that a lay person is unable to defend.    Forgive me for paraphrasing but I don't feel up to going back and looking for specific quotes.  Gracie's Mother evidently buys into the lazy/disruptive faculty myth perpetuated by the dome.  Board members are understandably attacking that position and, in doing so, closing off the avenues for constructive discussion.  Gracie's Mother doesn't "get it" but that's really not the issue.  Assume for a minute that some faculty are problems as defined by performaance on the three traditional dimensions of faculty evaluation - teaching, research, and service.  The issue is what has gone wrong with the leadership of the university that has allowed the situation to persist.  If a past history of unclear goals, changing goals, rewards for other than performance on the these areas, compensating for relatively low pay with other kinds of rewards, etc. have been allowed to occur then the blame (if need be) falls on the leadership (or lack thereof).   It's going to take some time to develop a culture of trust and respect and then even more time to remedy any problems that do exist.  Try to reframe the issues and arguments to ones that are of mutual interest and mutual understanding and I think the discussions could be more productive.  I have every confidence that the faculty leadership, including the leadership of AAUP, is up to the challenge.

Gracie's Mother wrote:

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LeftASAP wrote: Under Deep Cover wrote: ... We just don't seem to speak the same language as John Q. Public, and after reading and re-reading the posts in this thread, particularly those from "Gracie's Mother,"   I must say that many of the replies she received were condescending in tone, sarcastic, some bordering on insulting, to which she responded in kind.  ... _____________________________________________________________ Under Deep Cover, I for one would love to improve my communication skills.  So I ask you kindly to please quote from my post, or any other posts, examples of  "condescending in tone, sarcastic, some bordering on insulting" language used.  We can only learn from our mistakes.  I'm just asking for a good lesson in communicating with John Q. Public.   Now we may have another problem if  "Under Deep Cover" decides not to respond to this request.  Does it mean readers can assume this was just a smoke screen to criticize a communication?      Here's a few, big boy: Unfortunately, not understanding the issues doesn't hinder the letter writing of supporters of SFT.  Facts don't seem to matter to them.   First class people hire first class people. Second class people hire third class people. Wurl' class people . . .well, see for yourself.   No!  First you show that shared governance, a process practiced at virtually all respected universities, results in "control by the AAUP".  You have just regurgitated propaganda passed out by the SFT's administration without you even questioning it.    Gracie's Mother - two members of my family are USM graduates. Neither has heard of the "alumni support group" project you mention. How could the faculty know about such a project if USM alumni don't know about it? You suggest that we offer to help that alumni support group? May I ask who we should contact? Of equal importance, who should alumni, such as my family members, contact? At this point that information seems to be a well kept secret.   Well I can explain it. It's because your Alumni Association doesn't give a dipsey doodle about the average Joe or Jane who graduated from USM.  Unless they think your daddy's rich and your mamma's good looking they won't even put you on their mailing list. I understand why USM has such poor loyalty among its alumni and a very low level of giving during fund drives. I do not say this to be flip. I mean every word. This place is just not like the others.   What destroys the communication is that one side has only opinions, but never give reasons for the opinions.  When the faculty side points this out and provides evidence for our opinions, we are said to be "talking down" to the other side.  This is a troll debating tactic.   NO FRIGGIN' QUARTER already,   Angry as H*LL   Yep. Toss Gracie's Mom right into the troll bucket along with the rest of them.   You should be thanking the members of the USM chapter of AAUP, instead of proclaiming that they are beyond the pale, and insisting that you would never work with them under any circumstances.You should be thanking the members of the USM Faculty Senate, who have also worked hard to stop a rogue president from destroying a university. I am surprised you don't think they are also beyond the pale.   You may tell your King that we do not have the authority to negotiate and reach a compromise. That decision can be made only by the faculty members at all of the major universities across the country. The issues at hand are bigger than the both of us.   G.M. now has the choice.  Confirm they are a troll or back up assertions with evidence and examples, or apologize  and retract their statements as being incorrect.     I will certainly admit my errors if they are pointed out to me.  I'm on my knees begging to be educated.     Ma'am, can ya please help out my friend, USM Sympathizer?  Please, ma'am?  He aint askin' for much, ma'am, an' it sure would help settle 'im down a heap.  Sure appreciate your help, ma'am.  There's a nanner samich in it for ya if ya help him, ma'am.  Thankyouverymuch.   Is that the way we should be talking, Elvis?  No wonder we are having trouble communicating.   Thanks.          This stream of posts was generated by a post telling how one person isolated themselves from Hattiesburg by buying elsewhere and avoiding contact with Hattiesburg if he/she could. This is a rational response to a situation where your environment is not what you expected or has changed for the worse. It was hijacked by the poster Gracie's Mother to start a dialogue with other posters on this Board.   In response to Cossack: I have noticed that more and more "anti-faculty" posters on this board now include in their messages a phrase such as this: "I'm no fan of Shelby, but . . . ."    believe it was Seeker who first started the approach of                                                  1. Not a Shelby supporter,                                                                                            2. Both sides are wrong,                                                                                              3. Let's find middle ground,                                                                                           4. You guys just won't admit you have bad apples also.   Then the newer visitors have added                                                                                5. You guys just speek down to and insult everyone                                                         6. No wonder you can't get your message to the public Who sends these people? How do they find us? It couldn't be by accident. If they want to post, they should think about what they want to say, and then say it. But they go on and on rewording the same old gobblegook over and over.   I'm reasonably sure now that you've visited this board under other names, before you started claiming to be somebody's mother.   This isn't Shelby Thames' message board, so no one here is going to ask you to bow down or wash feet.    

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We appreciate your long post addressing the issues, GM. You have cleared things up for us.

Hortense wrote:

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Gracie's Mother, it appears that you are not going to address the productivity issue. Just the facts 'mam presented some impressive data. Will you not give your take on those data?

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I answered it just above.  My "productivity" wording was part of a suggestion in reply to an invitation by USM Sympathizer not an accusation.  If it is not an issue, then it is not and issue. If we are indeed, and I have my doubts whether we are or not, trying to have an open dialog, then it seems that we are in agreement on this point, and we can go on to something else. 

Gracie's mom, is your last name Dews, Drews, or Lacy?

I hesitate to add to this thread which has a rather unsettling tone, but here goes:

I have taught at 6 different schools of varying sizes. 5 of them have been state-supported.

When I worked at USM, I taught more different courses in a three year period than I did in the entire rest of my career. I worked at USM for 5 years, and I can count the number of times I went to the movies during that period on one hand. I worked nights, I worked weekends, I got up at 4:30 in the morning and wrote. My family never took a vacation during that time that did not involve visiting relatives or, mostly, doing work-related activities. Often I arranged my "vacations" to do research while grandma babysat. By the time I left USM, I was spending almost a tenth of my income on my own research or on traveling to conferences to present my research, because, although USM expected me to be an active professional scholar and do these things, it did not provide the funds for me to do it. The library did not begin to meet either the most basic needs for my research or for teaching my classes, and the funding for the library got worse and worse. I spent many many hours each year doing service activities for the school that were handled by professional staff members at every other school I have ever taught at (including the college with 1200 students). The buildings I taught in were filthy and poorly maintained. I bought my own chalk. I printed handouts for my students on my home computer or paid to make then at Kinkos, because my department could not afford to allow me to make enough photocopies for my students. Even making them at home, I often had to go beg for more so I could copy final exams. I made a salary which allowed me to live comfortably in Hattiesburg--but when I went on the job market, I discovered that although I am midcareer and established in field, my salary was now about entry level for my discipline.

In spite of all this, I liked my job. I liked my colleagues. I liked my students. But to hear IHL board members say we need to scale back and Hattiesburg citizen say that I'm lazy and overpaid, when I wasn't even allowed to xerox enough to for my students, makes my blood boil. They ought to be demanding that Mississippi fund education better than it does. USM was the most impoverished school I've taught at. They ought to be demanding improvements, library books, better facilities.

Sure there are a few lazy, even overpaid professors. There are lazy, overpaid people in all walks of life. But the vitriol that comes out in the papers and on this board, when I spent five years working the hardest I've every worked in my life--I simply can't take it. And it doesn't describe very many of the people I knew at USM. Gracie's mother and her ilk make me glad that I do not live in Hattiesburg anymore. I can't imagine having to explain to my child why people hate me. I don't think that these trolls really think we are lazy, or liberal, or whiners, or overpaid. I think they just desperately need someone to hate. And the faculty are their choice.

I fully expect Gracie's mother to start flaming now and telling me she/he is glad I'm gone and USM is better off without whiners like me. But USM students deserve the very best education that they can get. And if that means telling the truth about how bad things were, then that's not whining. And Gracie's mom, I bet this board is full of people who could tell the same story I have just told. They do not deserve to be harassed or derided.

foot soldier wrote:

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I hesitate to add to this thread which has a rather unsettling tone, but here goes: I have taught at 6 different schools of varying sizes. 5 of them have been state-supported. When I worked at USM, I taught more different courses in a three year period than I did in the entire rest of my career. I worked at USM for 5 years, and I can count the number of times I went to the movies during that period on one hand. I worked nights, I worked weekends, I got up at 4:30 in the morning and wrote. My family never took a vacation during that time that did not involve visiting relatives or, mostly, doing work-related activities. Often I arranged my "vacations" to do research while grandma babysat. By the time I left USM, I was spending almost a tenth of my income on my own research or on traveling to conferences to present my research, because, although USM expected me to be an active professional scholar and do these things, it did not provide the funds for me to do it. The library did not begin to meet either the most basic needs for my research or for teaching my classes, and the funding for the library got worse and worse. I spent many many hours each year doing service activities for the school that were handled by professional staff members at every other school I have ever taught at (including the college with 1200 students). The buildings I taught in were filthy and poorly maintained. I bought my own chalk. I printed handouts for my students on my home computer or paid to make then at Kinkos, because my department could not afford to allow me to make enough photocopies for my students. Even making them at home, I often had to go beg for more so I could copy final exams. I made a salary which allowed me to live comfortably in Hattiesburg--but when I went on the job market, I discovered that although I am midcareer and established in field, my salary was now about entry level for my discipline. In spite of all this, I liked my job. I liked my colleagues. I liked my students. But to hear IHL board members say we need to scale back and Hattiesburg citizen say that I'm lazy and overpaid, when I wasn't even allowed to xerox enough to for my students, makes my blood boil. They ought to be demanding that Mississippi fund education better than it does. USM was the most impoverished school I've taught at. They ought to be demanding improvements, library books, better facilities. Sure there are a few lazy, even overpaid professors. There are lazy, overpaid people in all walks of life. But the vitriol that comes out in the papers and on this board, when I spent five years working the hardest I've every worked in my life--I simply can't take it. And it doesn't describe very many of the people I knew at USM. Gracie's mother and her ilk make me glad that I do not live in Hattiesburg anymore. I can't imagine having to explain to my child why people hate me. I don't think that these trolls really think we are lazy, or liberal, or whiners, or overpaid. I think they just desperately need someone to hate. And the faculty are their choice. I fully expect Gracie's mother to start flaming now and telling me she/he is glad I'm gone and USM is better off without whiners like me. But USM students deserve the very best education that they can get. And if that means telling the truth about how bad things were, then that's not whining. And Gracie's mom, I bet this board is full of people who could tell the same story I have just told. They do not deserve to be harassed or derided.

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I have no way of knowing whether your work ethic is as you describe it or not, but I do whether I am a fraud or not.  Your colleagues go on and on about fact, scientific analysis, but you and many others just go on and on.

I have harassed or derided no one other that the ones who chose to attack me. I have said very clearly in this discussion that the great majority of the faculty is composed of hard working good men and women. I don't know how you missed that unless it was on purpose.

You don't want a dialouge.  If you opened your mind to the fact that there are good people outside the faculty, it would take away your self pity, and you are obviously getting a great deal of enjoyment out of wallowing in it.

Gracie's Mother wrote:
You don't want a dialouge.  If you opened your mind to the fact that there are good people outside the faculty, it would take away your self pity, and you are obviously getting a great deal of enjoyment out of wallowing in it.

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I never said there weren't good people outside of the faculty. In fact, I knew some very fine Hattiesburg natives who I respect and who I miss very much. However, most of the letters to the papers are not in support of the faculty. Hattiesburg citizens are not organizing to support the faculty, or saying anything nice about them in the press. By harassment and derision, I mean the general atmosphere, not you specifically. Unfortunately, I find your response to me does not suggest you are actually interested in dialogue, so I suspect I will not be responding to you again.

Gracie's Mother is not the only poster most of us don't agree with. We do not always agree with Seeker. But Seeker is able to roll with the punches. Seeker is willing and able to engage in healthy give-and-take discussions. We are happy to see Seeker return to the board after his temporary absences. Posters welcome him back, even they don't always agree with him. Seeker seems like a nice person.  Contrast all of that with Gracie's Mother.

How about a quick review:

USM Sympathizer wrote:

Gracie's Mother, Okay, if you didn't like TW's response to you, how about responding to my request that you list five or ten specific actions people on this board could take to improve relations with the community.  

Gracie's Mother responds:

Okay, I'll go for the bait.  I'm so stupid that I believe you are honestly asking for input from an outsider albeit an outsider who is profoundly interested in starting a healing process.  If this is a setup, you can chalk me up as another faculty adversary.

1)Stop this insane "NO QUARTER" attitude.  Armies fight more ferociously when confronted with such an enemy.

2) Open your minds to the possibility that the university needs to be streamlined and that productivity is not a four letter word.

When faced with evidence that USM faculty is very productive Gracie's Mother doesn’t respond.  Then after being requested very politely (overboard in polite for this board) Gracie's Mother responded with :

 “I would like that.  It will be later today. Thanks.”

Then after getting rest and preparing her response we get:

GM Replies: “This was one of the suggestions that I offered at your request.  IF you are indeed already open to this, then the suggestion is mute.  This was a suggestion not an accusation.”

Now board members don’t get your feelings hurt.  And please don’t rebut G.M. by saying  it looked like an accusation and sounded like an accusation, etc.  You may hurt G.M. feelings.

G. M.’s “suggestion” that I rebutted was “9) Show that "shared governance" indeed envolves sharing and not complete control by the AAUP.” 

Stupid me took this as an assertion that I was asked to refute.  So I did and in the process "hurt G.M.’s feelings". 

I leave it up to the readers to decide who is causing the “communication problems” with G.M..

 

 

Rabble wrote:

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Sympathizer, Thanks for the reply.  On the "day's work for a day's pay" front -- well so many folks have jumped on that one that I saw no reason to add my two cents.  I have (like many others on this board it seems) been in both the "real world" and in this one.  I am here to tell you that the work is every bit as hard at USM -- if not harder -- than in the "real world."  It is just a different kind of work; work that often leaves you mentally exhausted rather than physically exhausted, though sometimes both. On the "how to find a middle ground with the community" front -- no startling ideas there or I would have already been doing them.  Win over folks one at a time -- the folks we know and live with day to day.  Good old golden rule should be in operation.  A faculty/community committee seems rather contrived to me, but I would certainly be on one if need be.  I do think that posts like that of Citizen Gone do not help on this front -- threats to the community.  I know that they have not rallied to our support, but in my experience most are on our side in this.  However, it does not rank that high on their radar.  They have their own lives to worry about -- their own cares, a war, taxes, you name it.  Supporting faculty in their struggle comes way down their list of priorities.  The ones that hate us, though, tend to speak up it seems -- partly because hate seems to be a stronger emotion and partly because I suspect that SFT in some ways puts them up to it.  Even so the ones that hate us that speak up -- how many are there?  One or two editorial letter writers and one or two trolls on this board (who often change names)?  Thus in my view even those that hate us often cannot work up the energy to do anything about it.  So how to find a middle ground with the community?  I suspect that middle ground already exists - but I have really nothing to add if that middle ground needs to be formalized as a source of support.

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Rabble,

Thanks for a kind reply!  I've been out all day so I haven't read the board for most of it; I'm curious to see what's been happening on this thread especially.