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USM Forum -- Message Board -> AAUP-USM MESSAGE BOARD -> USM in color
Post Info TOPIC: USM in color
Back to the future.

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RE: USM in color
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Seeker, before you respond prematurily, consider this also. If we admit students who are not really of handling college-level work, and then toughen our grading in order to reduce grade inflation, there are going to be lots of frustrated students. They enter with the expectation of completing college, but the rising grading standards get the best of them and they flunk out. As I see it, this would present an ethical/moral delimma. Namely, is it fair to accept students you know are not prepared to meet your grading standards? Can you propose a solution for this very complex issue?

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Back to the future

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quote:
Originally posted by: Seeker
"You have no reason to take issue with me."
I have no issue with you, Seeker. I have just been trying to point out that these things are more complex than they sometimes appear to be. I thought we were just thinking things through together. I was merely posting some questions for our discussion.

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Seeker

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RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: USM in col
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quote:
Originally posted by: Back to the future
"Seeker, there is one more thing I neglected to mention. College admssions criteria in Mississippi were determined by the Ayres case. They are the same at all of our eight public universities. This leaves at least one other option: stop the grade inflation that exists at USM. That is within the conrol of the faculty, not the courts. How do you feel about that option?"


I have heard "grade inflation" mentioned here time and again. I do not believe that I experienced this while I was at USM. I have oft heard it said that it exists at USM today. My questions are as follows:

1) Do we have tangible proof that it is happening?
2) Is it localized or is it campus wide?
3) Is there a concentration of the practice in specific courses?
4) Why are some of our faculty allowing this to happen?


You said above that the faculty could correct the problem. Why are they choosing not to correct the problem?

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Seeker

Date:
RE: RE: USM in color
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quote:
Originally posted by: Back to the future.
"Seeker, before you respond prematurily, consider this also. If we admit students who are not really of handling college-level work, and then toughen our grading in order to reduce grade inflation, there are going to be lots of frustrated students. They enter with the expectation of completing college, but the rising grading standards get the best of them and they flunk out. As I see it, this would present an ethical/moral delimma. Namely, is it fair to accept students you know are not prepared to meet your grading standards? Can you propose a solution for this very complex issue?"


At some point a person has to become self-aware of one's short-comings. I believe that if we are not challenging the our better students it is more of a diservice if we are not giving them the skills that they will need to be successful in life. We have a Junior College system in MS that was designed to be a proving ground of sorts for studnets that may not be 100% ready for a University. What I think may very well happen is that many students will fail out of the Universities and then enroll in our Junior Colleges and hopefully learn from their past failures.

College and University education is not for everyone. Not everyone will be successful and graduate from college. I don't even believe that everyone benefits from college. There are many honorable trades where a person can make a fine living for their family without a college education.

I do not feel that it is unethical of the University to expect University Students, to preform at University levels.

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Back to the future

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quote:





Originally posted by: Seeker
" I have heard "grade inflation" mentioned here time and again. I do not believe that I experienced this while I was at USM. I have oft heard it said that it exists at USM today. My questions are as follows:


 1) Do we have tangible proof that it is happening?


Yes. A faculty committee was established to review this.


2) Is it localized or is it campus wide?


It is more apparent in some colleges than in others.


3) Is there a concentration of the practice in specific courses? 4)


The data have been reviewed by department and by college. I don't know the extent, if at all, it has been reviewed by specific course. Grading is, of course, the perogative of the faculty member.


 4) Why are some of our faculty allowing this to happen?


Different faculty members have different opinion on this. My own view is that the formal (written) student evaluations of courses is a significant factor. There seems to be an unspoken arrangement: you grade me high in your course and I will rate your course high. But that is my personal opinion. I don't know the extent to which my opinion is shared by others. I have held this opinion for many years.


 You said above that the faculty could correct the problem. Why are they choosing not to correct the problem?"


5) See my response to your question #4 (above)






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Back to the future

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RE: RE: RE: USM in color
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quote:

Originally posted by: Seeker
"  I do not feel that it is unethical of the University to expect University Students, to preform at University levels. "


Seeker, the ethical/moral dilemma would be knowingly accepting students you very well knew did not have the capability to meet your strict grading standards.



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Another explanation

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quote:
Originally posted by: Back to the future
""

Shelby Thames wants it to happen.  "We have to retain our students..."  How many times have you heard this?  "We need to get to 20,000 students..."  How many times have you heard this?


Every signal he sends begs for grade inflation.  He just can't explicitly ask for it, but implicitly the message is there.



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Seeker

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RE: RE: RE: RE: USM in color
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quote:
Originally posted by: Back to the future
""


If the admissions policy has been handed down by the Federal Courts (they are so screwed up it's not funny), then morals/ethics have nothing to do with it. It is not the responsibility of the University to insure all studnets who register for classes pass the courses they take. It is the student's responsibility to pass the class, if they can. If they can not preform at a University level, then that is not the fault of the University.

University education is not a right of every American citizen.

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Seeker

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quote:
Originally posted by: Another explanation
"
Shelby Thames wants it to happen.  "We have to retain our students..."  How many times have you heard this?  "We need to get to 20,000 students..."  How many times have you heard this?
Every signal he sends begs for grade inflation.  He just can't explicitly ask for it, but implicitly the message is there."


I knew that this was coming.

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ae

Date:
Permalink Closed

quote:
Originally posted by: Seeker
" I knew that this was coming."
You don't get to 20,000 by flunking the 14,000 that you have.

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Back to the future

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RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: USM in col
Permalink Closed

quote:
Originally posted by: Seeker
" I have heard "grade inflation" mentioned here time and again. I do not believe that I experienced this while I was at USM. "
Seeker, I forgot that you were a business major. As I recall, Business was the college in which grade inflation not a problem. Grading in that college appeared to be the most honest among all of the various colleges.

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Seeker

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RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: US
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quote:
Originally posted by: Back to the future
"Seeker, I forgot that you were a business major. As I recall, Business was the college in which grade inflation not a problem. Grading in that college appeared to be the most honest among all of the various colleges. "


Take courses under Bill Smith, Alvin Williams, Frank Whitesell, Rodger King and Dr. Ivy and see if you can find any grade inflation. Those guys were tough, but they are a big reason that I have been able to enjoy the modest success I have thus far.

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Reporter

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RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: USM in col
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quote:
Originally posted by: Another explanation
" Shelby Thames wants it to happen.  "We have to retain our students..."  How many times have you heard this?  "We need to get to 20,000 students..."  How many times have you heard this? Every signal he sends begs for grade inflation.  He just can't explicitly ask for it, but implicitly the message is there."

We know that faculty were pulled from courses because the students had too many Ds and Fs.  It happened this spring semester. 


I happen to agree with most of what Seeker has expressed tonight on this issue.  I would like to point out that the goal of SFT for 20K students is not to be taken literally.  He may be able to obtain a "head count" of 20K students by enrolling many part time students, teaching courses such as remedial math to nurses on site at hospitals and teaching "college courses" to high school students on site at their high school using adjuncts.  


It will at least make good PR.


 



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Back to the future

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RE: RE: RE: USM in color
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quote:

Originally posted by: Seeker
"  Not everyone will be successful and graduate from college. I don't even believe that everyone benefits from college. "


Seeker, one problem is that we don't have terribly valid predictors of college success. Even the ACT and SAT give false positives. I am aware of one university that found that "rank in class" was the best predictor of success at their particular school. A student who ranked #1 at a small rural school did just as well at their school as a student who ranked #1 at a more affluent school. I really don't know how USM selects its undergraduate students. Faculty members are generally not involved at that level of a university's operation.



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Reporter

Date:
Permalink Closed

quote:
Originally posted by: Back to the future
"Seeker, one problem is that we don't have terribly valid predictors of college success. Even the ACT and SAT give false positives. I am aware of one university that found that "rank in class" was the best predictor of success at their particular school. A student who ranked #1 at a small rural school did just as well at their school as a student who ranked #1 at a more affluent school. I really don't know how USM selects its undergraduate students. Faculty members are generally not involved at that level of a university's operation.
"

Back, Your post reminded me that the Academic Council's report on grade inflation found the same thing about no correlation between our ACTs and student performance.  But they discovered the reason.  The students with the lowest ACTs were entering the programs with the highest grade inflation.  So they could never get a correlation between ACT and GPA.



__________________
Seeker

Date:
Permalink Closed

quote:
Originally posted by: Reporter
"
Back, Your post reminded me that the Academic Council's report on grade inflation found the same thing about no correlation between our ACTs and student performance.  But they discovered the reason.  The students with the lowest ACTs were entering the programs with the highest grade inflation.  So they could never get a correlation between ACT and GPA."



Here's my HS profile and how I did at USM

Class Rank #13
Class Precentile Top 10%
ACT - 28 (taken Jr year)
GPA - 3.2

USM
CBA - Marketing
3.0 GPA


Maybe I am wrong but I would think that should be about right someone with a 25-28 on the ACT should be about a 3.0 student in a challenging program. I could have probably been a better student had I put forth more work, but hey, can't change that now.






__________________
Profiler

Date:
Permalink Closed

quote:
Originally posted by: Seeker
"I could have probably been a better student had I put forth more work."
Frat boy, huh?

__________________
Seeker

Date:
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quote:
Originally posted by: Profiler
"Frat boy, huh?"


Well, you know......

Hey I probalby had more fun that the rest of you in college.

__________________
Reporter

Date:
Permalink Closed

quote:
Originally posted by: Seeker
" Here's my HS profile and how I did at USM Class Rank #13 Class Precentile Top 10% ACT - 28 (taken Jr year) GPA - 3.2 USM CBA - Marketing 3.0 GPA Maybe I am wrong but I would think that should be about right someone with a 25-28 on the ACT should be about a 3.0 student in a challenging program. I could have probably been a better student had I put forth more work, but hey, can't change that now. "

Seeker, you did well.  The CoBA held standards.  However, the Academic Council's report showed the if you graduated from USM with a 3.0, you were graduating in the bottom half of your class.  That was because of the colleges that had enormous grade inflation. I will let you guess which colleges did that.



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