To Ray Folse - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Apr 27, 2005

RE: To Ray Folse

Date: Apr 27, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Reporter
"
This is one source of the problem, Mush Mouth. The person making the assertion has the burden of proof or supplying the evidence, not the accused. The trouble is too many are not use to questioning authority and believe without any evidence. This can only be if the person who originates the statements has access to the faculty evaluations. So it seems it is the administration that is the source of the negative view of the faculty. This is an old tactic that goes back to the '60s when the faculty were the "outsiders" that was causing all the "trouble" by getting minorities to vote. I hold the university leadership for creating this division because the faculty expressed its opinion of SFT based on the evidence of his past performance as an administrator. The IHL Board members didn't possess this memory because they were not in office back then. "

In Logic 101, you are correct.

In the real world, you are incredibly naive. Perception is reality. The administration has created (with some assistance from the faculty) the perception that faculty members are lazy. Case in point: in the news the other day, there was a story about how hard faculty are working to get off SACS probation. One faculty member was quoted as saying that SACS work was cutting into his ability to enjoy USM baseball games, while another stated that he was no longer able to go home and play with his grandchildren at 2pm anymore. With friends like these, who needs enemies? While these faculty members' statements may be true, they are not the kind of thing you want to publicize, because almost no working grandparent can go home at 2pm to play with their grandchildren on a regular basis.

If you insist on working in a stilted setting, you will continue to flounder. Open you eyes. You are guilty until you prove yourself innocent. To wit, you have 2 choices: continue what you are doing now or take the offensive and make an effort to show the good side of faculty work.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Mush Mouth
" In Logic 101, you are correct. In the real world, you are incredibly naive. Perception is reality. The administration has created (with some assistance from the faculty) the perception that faculty members are lazy. Case in point: in the news the other day, there was a story about how hard faculty are working to get off SACS probation. One faculty member was quoted as saying that SACS work was cutting into his ability to enjoy USM baseball games, while another stated that he was no longer able to go home and play with his grandchildren at 2pm anymore. With friends like these, who needs enemies? While these faculty members' statements may be true, they are not the kind of thing you want to publicize, because almost no working grandparent can go home at 2pm to play with their grandchildren on a regular basis. If you insist on working in a stilted setting, you will continue to flounder. Open you eyes. You are guilty until you prove yourself innocent. To wit, you have 2 choices: continue what you are doing now or take the offensive and make an effort to show the good side of faculty work."

I understand completely. The politician’s methods don't involve logic or truth and people who devote their life to these are at a disadvantage politically. This is true for many professions and is being discussed on another thread I believe. But please explain your last sentence and what you think faculty can do to "show the good side of faculty work".

I think a good administration insulates the faculty from the "political" so they can concentrate on their work.

I'm now retiring for the evening and will read your reply in the morning.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Mush Mouth
" .... One faculty member was quoted as saying that SACS work was cutting into his ability to enjoy USM baseball games, while another stated that he was no longer able to go home and play with his grandchildren at 2pm anymore. ..."

You show me where you saw that statement about going home at 2 p.m., other than in your mind, Mush Mouth.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

quote:
But please explain your last sentence and what you think faculty can do to "show the good side of faculty work".
I think a good administration insulates the faculty from the "political" so they can concentrate on their work.
I'm now retiring for the evening and will read your reply in the morning. "

Thanks Reporter, I was writing something along the same lines when the phone rang. You said it.
We have heard this ad nauseum. None of these people ever say what the faculty is to DO. My caller, who is a USM friend, reminded me that it is the Administration's job to defend the faculty. The faculty are supposed to teach, research & write, and do service work. PR is not part of their mission. The Administration controls the PR office.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by: Mush Mouth
.SACS work was cutting into his ability to enjoy USM baseball games, while another stated that he was no longer able to go home and play with his grandchildren at 2pm anymore. .

Your name should be Mush Head---go back and read the article in Sunday's Hattiesburg American--it's free online for 7 days. I know the faculty member who made the remark about not having enough time to play with her grandchildren. What she SAID was that she certainly didn't tear out of work at 5 p.m. anymore and that she didn't have enough time anymore to play with her grandchildren.

ALSO, I've observed that many USM baseball games recently have been played at night and on weekends. I bet lots of faculty members were in their offices working during those games.

NOTHING in this article implied in any way that people are going home early or otherwise shirking their responsibilites. Sheeeeeshh.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

That's right. Attack me since you cannot defend yourselves. While my memory of the quote was incorrect, it should be clear that stating things like that garner no sympathy from people who work rigid hours each and every week and who do not get the summer off to concentrate on one facet of their job or of their interests.

Again, in a perfect world, faculty members wouldn't have to worry about politics or PR. However, USM is not a perfect world and the USM PR department certainly isn't going to tout the hard-working nature of the faculty.

My boss gave me some of his work to do the other day. It's not in my job description to do this task, and I could ignore the task. However, the task directly affects me, and I will do it if for no other reason than to make my life better.

It's not your job to do PR, but if it will help your cause, why do you continue to put your head in the sand?

Date: Apr 27, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by: Mush Mouth
.it should be clear that stating things like that garner no sympathy from people who work rigid hours each and every week

Saying things like what? I don't know what you are talking about. If you are referring to the faculty member who said she didn't get to go home at 5 o'clock, your statement makes no sense.

and who do not get the summer off to concentrate on one facet of their job or of their interests.

Like school teachers, faculty on 9 month contracts don't get paid in the summer when they don't work. Some take summer jobs.

My boss gave me some of his work to do the other day. It's not in my job description to do this task, and I could ignore the task. However, the task directly affects me, and I will do it if for no other reason than to make my life better.

Funny, my boss gave me some of his work the other day, which wasn't in my job description...It's called SACS assessment plan. I do it because it's the right thing to do. It may save my university, but it won't necessarily make my life better because it may save the boss.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Mush Mouth
"........no sympathy from people who work rigid hours each and every week and who do not get the summer off......."

Surely you don't think faculty members get paid during the summer for doing nothing. Some faculty members who do not teach during the summer do have their academic year salary spread over calendar year. That's hardly what you call getting paid for the summer.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

"Going after him via his shooting statement is like convicting Capone on tax evasion."

Getting him on tax evasion was what finally took him off the street.

If you look at the shooting remark in the context of all the other hot-headed remarks, it does appear, if nothing else, that this person has anger-management issues. The sum total of his remarks indicates someone with a very bad temper who probably shouldn't be in a position of responsibility with a public university. I am reminded of Bobby Knight.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

To Magnolia:
I never said profs get paid for not working in the summer. I said they get the summer off to concentrate on their research, which will inevitably lead to promotion, tenure, raises (if available), or better jobs elsewhere. It is a luxury to be paid a salary high enough that nine months' worth can sustain you through twelve.

As for the comments, don't expect to get sympathy from the community because you don't get to go home at 5. Most of the community is thinking "Good. We're finally getting a day's work for a day's pay from those lazy profs at USM."

My only suggestion remains that perhaps the faculty at USM should pool some money and create a mini-PR campaign to publicize accomplishments that Hattiesburg residents -- all of them--can understand. They have no concept of research. However, they do understand dollars raised, performances, etc. These are tangible items. What about volunteering on weekends, etc.? I am only suggesting that profs take the PR initiative instead of saying "That's not my job." If you want an attitude change, you have to take charge yourselves, because SFT will never do it for you.

To USM Sympathizer:
Leave Bobby Knight out of this. You apparently know as much about him as a casual viewing of the popular media will allow.

As for Capone, if law enforcement hadn't run out of options, it wouldn't have ever needed tax evasion. USM profs skip the meat of the issue to jump on the "he's violent, angry, and a loose cannon" wagon. And you call yourselves intellectuals. You're being just like everyone else: you're going for the lowest common denominator.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Mush Mouth
"To USM Sympathizer: Leave Bobby Knight out of this. You apparently know as much about him as a casual viewing of the popular media will allow. As for Capone, if law enforcement hadn't run out of options, it wouldn't have ever needed tax evasion. USM profs skip the meat of the issue to jump on the "he's violent, angry, and a loose cannon" wagon. And you call yourselves intellectuals. You're being just like everyone else: you're going for the lowest common denominator."

Thanks for the advice, but I know as much about BK as I need to know, having seen the films of the thrown chairs, read the reports of the punched players, seen and read the accounts of the repeated failures to abide by warnings, etc., etc., etc.

Similarly, having read the relevant ET posts made by the head of the USM Foundation (not just the one about the rifle; have you read the others?), I have enough information to know that he does not possess enough sense to make a good public impression and therefore should not be in a position in which he represents the university. If the stupid gun comment is what finally leads him to resign or be replaced, it'll do. I guarantee you that if any faculty member spoke in public the way this guy does, that faculty member would be in big trouble.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Mush Mouth
My only suggestion remains that perhaps the faculty at USM should pool some money and create a mini-PR campaign to publicize accomplishments that Hattiesburg residents -- all of them--can understand. They have no concept of research. However, they do understand dollars raised, performances, etc. These are tangible items. What about volunteering on weekends, etc.? I am only suggesting that profs take the PR initiative instead of saying "That's not my job." If you want an attitude change, you have to take charge yourselves, because SFT will never do it for you.

At USM this type of activity would probably get you fired. A better use of time is to do what academics at a "normal" school get paid to do. About all we can do is to keep pointing out stupidities in the hope that a majority on the IHL will wake up before the place implodes. FWIW, my own opinion is that it's going to take an implosion or a really interesting scandal to get any changes. Left unchecked the former will eventually occur and the latter is a land mine waiting to be stepped on. Some of land mines are largish and the collateral damage created would be amusing to watch and in the long run might help clean up the cess pool at IHL.

As a faculty member you've got to balance this activity with not blowing up your career and/or short changing your students. If we ever get a new administration and ever get money for raises you'll be better off showing that you were doing what you get paid to do. There's even less of a percentage in engaging in these activities if you're just trying to get out of Dodge.

Date: Apr 27, 2005

Mush,

We can buy an ad and list all of the hard work that we do -- and it will all be seen as nothing but a reaction to SFT and will not convince anyone. In my view a waste of time and money. Also how do we get work ideas like these across -- 12 years of school (at least in my case) invested to even have a chance to work this hard. The endless hours needed to create a functional class. The even more endless hours needed to grade papers for said functional class. (Try grading 80 book reviews -- might sound easy until you realize that you have to correct every sentence in those bad boys). Four years of research before you even begin to think of writing a book (ever bothered to write one -- ain't easy). ON that front you said in your original post that in our ad we could not list things like publications that were not real work. That is like telling a car salesman that he can't list cars sold on his work resume! Buddy, this is just the tip of the iceberg and this is work that nobody out there would understand at all.

Here is one of the main problems. I (as a whole) do not have much time for lawyers or insurance salesmen. However, I do not have the audacity to rant and rave in public about how "bad" they are. Many folks out there will never like or understand what we do -- it will always be that way. Talking about lazy faculty members at parties is cool by me -- and I will talk about shyster lawyers at my parties. However, when the whole thing is raised to the level of a public attack that it all gets out of whack. Why has it been raised to such a level? SFT has been telling folks that their ill informed ideas about what we do are true. It is his fault. What a great leader!

Date: Apr 27, 2005

Somebody with an hour to spare, try listing the community activities and contributions of Gary & Mary Ann Stringer, of Frank Glamser (whose wife is a public school teacher, a heroic community commitment in itself), of Myron Henry, and on and on and on. And what good has it done? Where were the hundreds of kids Frank coached when the chips were down?
Why does anybody think ANYTHING the faculty does will help? They should just do the jobs, live the lives, and don't try to "earn" the community's approbation. The folks who appreciate you, do, and the ones who ENVY you (which is ultimately what their attitude really is) won't change.

Here's a good one: got an ex-relative who never misses a chance to sneer at "liberal arts" types or to say that people in liberal arts are stoopid, etc. Yet this same person is busting his rear to keep a child in college -- a child who is majoring in history and wants to teach. You can't win.

Date: Apr 28, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Mush Mouth
" don't expect to get sympathy from the community because you don't get to go home at 5. Most of the community is thinking "Good. We're finally getting a day's work for a day's pay from those lazy profs at USM."

And to think that I wasted some of the best years of my life thinking I was doing some good by working my butt off from early morning to late evening. My brain must have turned to mush.

Date: Apr 28, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Mush Mouth
"The ad could list the accomplishments (tangible, not publications) of faculty members this academic year: grants, programs, performances, fundraising, awards, etc. "

The inherent message discounting the scholarly work of academics discredits your post. Your post reeks of the economic development mantra.

Date: Apr 28, 2005

Mush Mouth (was there ever a more apt moniker?) said: "I never said profs get paid for not working in the summer. I said they get the summer off to concentrate on their research, which will inevitably lead to promotion, tenure, raises (if available), or better jobs elsewhere. It is a luxury to be paid a salary high enough that nine months' worth can sustain you through twelve."

Let me help you out here: we do not get the summer "off." We are on a 9 month contract and are paid only for 9 months of work. If we teach in the summer we are paid per course at a far lower rate than our normal salaries. You complain about professors doing work on their own time in the summer as a "luxury," but I suggest that is what being a professional and attending 4 years of undergraduate college and six+ years of graduate school is all about. Have you forgotten?: the mantra in Mississippi is you go to college to get a degree and then a job - professors went to college for 10+ years, garnered several degrees, and became experts in their fields and now you want to deny them a good job? I do detect a degree of jealousy here - why don't you come back to graduate school (assuming you have a BA or BS degree) and become an expert in your field - then you too can enhance your earning potential and job conditions. Be aware, however, that being a professor is far more work than you could apparently ever imagine.

Date: Apr 28, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Mush Mouth
One faculty member was quoted as saying that SACS work was cutting into his ability to enjoy USM baseball games, while another stated that he was no longer able to go home and play with his grandchildren at 2pm anymore. With friends like these, who needs enemies? While these faculty members' statements may be true, they are not the kind of thing you want to publicize, because almost no working grandparent can go home at 2pm to play with their grandchildren on a regular basis.

At the risk of offending the copyright gods, here is the applicable quote that shows that Mush Mouth is spouting falsehoods faster than a frat boy drinks beer (also in today's CL):

"Some days it makes up 25 percent of my workload," she said. "I certainly don't tear out of here at 5 o'clock every day. I'm not spending as much time with my grandkids, but I realize it's an important process and it's necessary to complete this by the deadline."

Sounds like she is putting in what in the "real" world is called OVERTIME.

Date: Apr 28, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by: Ray Folse

Originally posted by: Kudzu King
"Ray Since you asked my opinion on your letter, I will honor your request. Your letter was at least much more honest than the one Noel Polk represented.

Thanks for responding. We can discuss Dr. Polk's letter on another thread. I thought it was excellent. But let's us not get off topic.

You and Myron admit that in reality you didn't see a problem with McLaughlin's joking post about getting on the Admin building with a rifle.

This is not true. We were limited to 250 words and the paper had already addressed this unfortunate statement. Let's not put words and ideas into our letter that didn't exist.

You saw it as a joke, just as did everyone else.

I figured it was meant to be a joke. What do you think would happened if a faculty member said those words on this board in reference to SFT? We are speaking of the President of the Foundation who must convince people to donate money. But let's not get off topic.

It was refreshing to see you admit that your real problem was with the comments he made about the faculty. I also understand that without the more sensational post, that you wouldn't have gotten the pawns at the Hattiesburg American to take notice.

Why do you use the word "pawns" when the H.A. prints a letter from citizens of USA, but not when they publish press releases of USM PR department? Are you aware of the misinformation provided by the USM PR department? Remember the enrollment figures, Number of faculty needing post-tenure review, "the dog ate my report to US News and World Report", "I forgot to send the SACS info to them etc etc. I find it odd how you judge credibility.

The post that most on this board had a problem with couldn't get you any press. Because too many people agree with it. You had to bring in the mention of a gun. That always gets the the attention of the gun grabbing liberals in the media.

Go back and research the Letters to the Editors form faculty. Almost all are responding to some stupid thing. I just responded to the latest. If your side would be quiet, there would be no messages getting to the public. For that I must thank you and SFT supporters.

All in all I disagee with most of what you stated in your letter, but it was honest, and for that I do respect you.

Now we get to the meat of your critique and we get this. Be specific. Say what you disagree with and why. You apparently have some very hurt feelings, but have not been able to verbalize the feelings with logic.

The University is divided, but it was divided before Thames and will be afterwards. I remember a time when many faculty refered to you friend Myron as "Flemings Flunkie". My, how times have changed."

Did you know that people actually change when they learn more about things. I know I have. So what? It is poor argument to call names when you can't think of anything to say.

Now I'm off to the faculty-staff golf league. (It helps to unite a divided USM.) I will check this board after I get taught some golf. "

Kudzu King, I was looking forward to reading your response to Dr. Folse's line-by-line reply. You may be busy now, but I hope you find time to continue this dialog.