Thames: coast campus must grow to 6,000 in 2 yrs - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Apr 14, 2005

RE: Thames: coast campus must grow to 6,000 in 2 yrs

Date: Apr 14, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: 25 and out
"On another note watch the enrollments at Millsaps, Ms College, and Carey for the fall. They are offering enough scholarship money to good not great students to essentially "equalize" tuition with USM. A lot of the better local students that would have gone to USM will be decamping there in the fall."

Coincidentally, 25 and out, a few minutes I heard this TV public service announcement from a first tier public university (wurl' class by anybody's standards) that has funds for bright but financially challenged students who would like to attend their university: "If you've got the brains, we've got the bucks."

Too bad USM doesn't concern itself more with quality and less with enrollment growth.

Date: Apr 14, 2005

I suspect you will see more of this. There has been a bidding war going on for some time among the "privates" for better students. The "publics" seem to be feeling the heat and are responding. The increasingly common deal seems to be if you've got the grades and scores, we'll forget about the out-of-state tuition surcharge. Oh and by the way we're pouring money into our honors college. You don't have to bother with Millsapsville to get small writing intensive classes where the prof doesn't read power point slides to avoid preparing for class. Don't take my word for it. Check out the new honors college setup at Alabama. Part of this is you can't be wurl' class without a respectable number of nonlocals. Along with this is the growing body of evidence on the benefits of diversity (please no flames for using the d word). This is also a clever way to suck the best and the brightest out of other states. Some of these bright kids won't go home after seeing Paris, so to speak. Also, there is a fair amount of "guerilla marketing" going on that the old folks don't see. If a kid has an email address and a high ACT, you should see the deluge of "this is a cool place to go to school" spam hitting the box. Very cheap marketing. We won't even get into the trend of kids going out of state because it makes it easier to get a job back home when you're done. Wonder how hard it would be for a Southerner with a 3.5 from Ohio State to get a job back home? Diversity works with degrees in the workplace too. Bit early for MS though.

To check USMs nonwurl' status, just look at where our students come from at the next graduation. In a few years a foreign student at USM will be anyone from North of I-20.

Date: Apr 14, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: 25 and out
" You don't have to bother with Millsapsville to get small writing intensive classes where the prof doesn't read power point slides to avoid preparing for class."

I've been waiting for someone to acknowledge this. Power point slides. What a lazy way to teach.

Date: Apr 14, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Blackboard & Chalk
"I've been waiting for someone to acknowledge this. Power point slides. What a lazy way to teach."

Fads in educational technology do come and go.l

Date: Apr 14, 2005

Monopoly money is a much better teaching tool.

Date: Apr 14, 2005

Just be patient and you will start seeing research showing negative correlations between student learning and the use of certain "technology". In defense of some unfortunates, you really won't have much of a choice for future classes in Bennett or for MAT 101 in some of the more intimate teaching environments in JGH. Hey, it's better than "online" if your objective is actually to learn something.

I would like to chastise the person who dared to mention the quality of education at USM in a seemingly derogatory manner. Since USM is by definition world class, then all of those lazy dumba?? faculty have evidently been able to improve the quality of education provided to the students in the last 3 years.

Date: Apr 15, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Coast Resident
" You have obviously not toured the Nissan plant and are totally clueless as to what auto plant workers are paid. The starting pay for production-related jobs is $28,000 plus benefits with the average pay being about $40,000. This is more than “marginally better than the community norm.” Part of the deal to draw Nissan to Mississippi included the establishment of the Center for Advanced Vehicular Systems (CAVS) at Mississippi State University with a branch of CAVS to be located near the Nissan plant: http://www.cavs.msstate.edu/ Another Nissan R&D activity (also not in Japan) includes its partnership with SemiSouth (a MSU spin-off company) to develop and integrate advanced silicon carbide (SiC) power transistors and control circuitry within a compact power module for use in hybrid electric cars and future low-emission electric cars: http://www.semisouth.com/news/atp_pr/atp_announcement.pdf"

Dear Sir or Madam:

I was a consultant to the Toyota corporation during the site selection process, throughout construction, and during the subsequent expansion of their assembly plant in Scott County, Kentucky. I was also a consultant to Nissan prior to their selection of Smyrna, Tennessee as a plant site, and I've spent many hours in that plant since it's opening. If I'm not mistaken, the Nissan Smyrna plant is consistently the most efficient assembly plant in the automotive industry. Finally, I was a consultant to Nissan during the site selection process for the new Mississippi plant. I have "toured," to use your word, these and other automobile plants in the U.S. and Japan on many occasions, during plant construction, as well as during routine plant operations. I'm an industrial engineer with advanced degrees in labor economics and business administration, and have over 25 years experience in the auto industry. I'm quite familiar with the pay of auto assembly plant workers generally, and specifically at the new Mississippi plant. I will say again that while the Nissan deal was brokered and shepherded along by Trent Lott, the relatively low wages earned by Mississippians and low cost of living, were significant factors in the decision to build in Mississippi. An entry level assembly line worker earning approximately $28K is positioned barely above the community norm, and significantly below the compensation Nissan might have been forced to pay to workers in other less economically depressed states.

That said, the Nissan plant has nothing to do with Shelby Thames. As an industry consultant, I have yet to see any automobile manufacturer consider proximity to a university as a primary consideration in site evaluations for an assembly plant. Think about the construction of assembly plants in Mexico by Volkswagon, and more recently by Toyota. I can assure you that they aren't there because of a university educated labor force. Those decisions are economics driven--low property and construction costs, and a substantial labor pool willing to work for relatively low wages.

Just so the record is clear, I am no fan of Shelby Thames. I doubt he'd know what to do with an economic development windfall if it was presented on a silver platter.

No Thames Cheerleader

Date: Apr 15, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Industrial Cartel
" You sure wrote a shipload in responding to my two simple questions, each of which could be answered with one word: 1. Would industry be attracted here if USM's student population numbered 20,000 rather that its current number? [NO] 2. What large university is located in or near Jackson that caused Nissan to locate there rather than near Hattiesburg, Starkville, or Oxford? [NONE] "

See my earlier comments about the Straw Man Fallacy. You are arguing over propositions that neither I, nor anyone else on this board, has advanced. With respect to your questions, the answers are:

1. You don't know, and neither does anyone else.

2. None. Read my earlier comments. Positioning of the NISSAN plant had nothing to do with the location of any university. In fact, one could argue that site selection criteria for an assembly plant would specifically exclude locations with a highly educated population.

Date: Apr 15, 2005

Dear No Thames Cheerleader,

Welcome to the board. I too am outside the University but concerned about the future of USM. I hope you are able to communicate your position on Thames throughout the community. The more thoughtful commentary on Thames and his failings the better for all of us.

Date: Apr 15, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Eagle
"Dear No Thames Cheerleader, Welcome to the board. I too am outside the University but concerned about the future of USM. I hope you are able to communicate your position on Thames throughout the community. The more thoughtful commentary on Thames and his failings the better for all of us."

Thank you. I'm not in Mississippi and not a USM alum, but have strong family ties in Jackson and Hattiesburg and at the university. My opposition to Shelby Thames is not confined to his well documented incompetence as an administrator. I believe that while certain of his stated goals are meritorious, such as the idea of a community-university-industry collaboration, and the judicious expansion of USM's coast campus, he is constitutionally incapable of achieving them due to his small-mindedness, self-absorption, lack of ethics, and mean-spirited nature. I have made my position known, verbally and in writing, to various IHL members and select Mississippi politicians with whom I'm acquainted. The response to date, varying little from person to person, has been something to the effect that they're acutely aware of the problems with Thames, and he'll be dealt with in due time. This sounds like a lot of political double-speak to me, but maybe something is going on behind the scenes. We can only hope.

Date: Apr 15, 2005

NTC,

I have enjoyed reading your posts. You seem to have insight to Thames bass ackwards approached to economic development, i.e., focus on economic development then academic reputation will come.

You seem to have insight into the Nissan deal, and I find it interesting that that company chose to place an engineering branch of its operation at MSU. I believe at the time JSU had an engineering program. If so, could it be that academic reputation was the deciding factor in giving MSU the program? JSU is certainly more convenient that Starkville.

Date: Apr 15, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: USM Alum
"...You seem to have insight into the Nissan deal, and I find it interesting that that company chose to place an engineering branch of its operation at MSU. I believe at the time JSU had an engineering program. If so, could it be that academic reputation was the deciding factor in giving MSU the program? JSU is certainly more convenient that Starkville."

You're taxing my memory a bit, but I think the reasons for selecting MSU as the Nissan engineering "partner" were as follows, in no particular order:

1. MSU enjoys a large and politically influential body of alumni who regularly work to support and advance their alma mater. As I said earlier, the Nissan plant was a Trent Lott brokered deal and while he's an Ole Miss guy to the core, he does listen to the supporters and big money donors who keep him in office, many of whom are MSU grads.

2. MSU offers well respected undergrad and graduate programs in electrical and mechanical engineering and has impressive laboratory and research facilities not found at JSU (or Ole Miss). Both engineering specialty areas, electrical and mechanical, were directly related to Nissan's R&D needs. I can't comment on current programs, but as I recall, at the time these deals were on the table, Jackson State only offered civil and computer science engineering programs, neither of which satisfied the Nissan requirements.

3. The MSU engineering school is well established and enjoys a better reputation, academically, than JSU, and for that matter, better than Ole Miss. I believe that had politics not been a factor and academic quality their only criteria, Nissan would still have chosen to affiliate with MSU.

Date: Apr 15, 2005

RE: RE: Thames: coast campus must grow to 6,000 i

Date: Apr 15, 2005

RE: Thames: coast campus must grow to 6,000 in 2 y

Date: Apr 16, 2005

RE: RE: Thames: coast campus must grow to 6,000 in 2 yrs

Date: Apr 16, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Industrial Cartel
" No Thames Cheerleader, You continue to insist that I am arguing with you. I posed two brief questions. There was nothing argumentative in either of them. I hope hothing in the content of those two questions upset you. Here is my previous posting in toto: Two questions for you: 1. Would industry be attracted here if USM's student population numbered 20,000 rather that its current number? 2. What large university is located in or near Jackson that caused Nissan to locate there rather than near Hattiesburg, Starkville, or Oxford? "

Let me toss in my .02. He's (She's ?) answered you twice and in considerable detail, but apparently you haven't digested the information. Your first question is unanswerable, as was pointed out. Your second question is nonsensical. Several board contributors have explained that the Nissan plant location was unrelated to the location of any university. You just don't seem to get it. I'd suggest you give it up and move on.

Date: Apr 18, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Industrial Cartel
" No Thames Cheerleader, You continue to insist that I am arguing with you. I posed two brief questions. There was nothing argumentative in either of them. I hope hothing in the content of those two questions upset you. "

I'm not upset in the least, but thanks for your concern.

Date: Apr 18, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Field Judge
"Several board contributors have explained that the Nissan plant location was unrelated to the location of any university. You just don't seem to get it. I'd suggest you give it up and move on."

Field Judge, the questions asked by Industrial Cartel were entirely appropriate. Evidently you didn't read this statement from the article that started this discussion: "One point Dr. Thames emphasized was that more students enrolled in college courses could lure more industries to South Mississippi." Industrial Cartel was taking issue with that assumption by asking the question he/she asked. We call that a "rhetorical question." It can be an effective teaching tool for bright students.

Date: Apr 18, 2005

Industrial Cartel is right. Industry is attracted to locations where there are quality institutions of higher educatation. Size alone is not an attraction. If it weren't for Mississippi State's location in Starkeville I doubt that Nissan would have given a second look at the Jackson metropolitan area.

Date: Apr 18, 2005

With Jackson located not down the road South, and MS State Univ. located not far to the East, the location Nissan selected seems ideal. There must be some ingredient missing in South Mississippi that has failed to attract. Shipbuilding doesn't count because that is largely determined by geographical considerations (water) and that industry has been in Mississipi for many decades.

Date: Apr 18, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Aristotle
"Field Judge, the questions asked by Industrial Cartel were entirely appropriate. Evidently you didn't read this statement from the article that started this discussion: "One point Dr. Thames emphasized was that more students enrolled in college courses could lure more industries to South Mississippi." Industrial Cartel was taking issue with that assumption by asking the question he/she asked. We call that a "rhetorical question." It can be an effective teaching tool for bright students. "

A rhetorical question requires no answer, for it's assumed by the questioner that the answer is known or is obvious. If you're asserting that the first question was rhetorical, then it was poorly crafted, for the answer is not known. A "bright student" would attack the legitimacy of the questions you reference for precisely the reasons mentioned by "Field Judge" and others. There is ample historical evidence of other university-industry synergies to support Dr. Thames statement. The problem is not his statement. It is his underlying assumption that mere size of a student body is sufficient to lure industry. He confuses size with quality. Perhaps it's a facet of his "small man" complex. Whatever the basis for his belief, it's the fatal flaw in his plan. Moreover, a question, rhetorical or otherwise, concerning an anecdotal example such as the policitally engineered site selection of the Nissan plant is a red herring. If USM had 50,000 students and the academic reputation of UC-Berkley, I guarandamntee you that the Nissan plant would not have come to Hattiesburg. So what. There's no auto assembly plant in Ann Arbor, or College Station, or Gainesville, or Athens, or Austin. The fact that Nissan is not located near USM demonstrates nothing other than the political adroitness of Trent Lott. Many here are confusing their well justified disdain for Shelby Thames with certain of his unoriginal pronouncements. If USM were fortunate enough to have a competent well liked president such as Khayat, who made the same observation, I'd wager it wouldn't create so much as a ripple.

Date: Apr 18, 2005

RE: Thames: coast campus must grow to 6,000 in 2 y

Date: Apr 18, 2005

RE: RE: Thames: coast campus must grow to 6,000 in 2 yrs

Date: Apr 18, 2005

What happened to Hattiesburg's Sunbeam Corporation and Chainsaw Al?

Date: Apr 18, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Polymer Palace
"What happened to Hattiesburg's Sunbeam Corporation and Chainsaw Al? "

Ralph T. Simmons is a retired vice president of Sunbeam-Oster
Corporation, where he was employed from 1963 to 1995 as credit manager,
assistant treasurer, and vice president. Mr. Simmons has served as past
chairman-deacons of the First Baptist Church of Laurel, past chairman of the
Salvation Army, past chairman of the Red Cross, past chairman of the FBLA/PBL
Foundation, past president of the University of Southern Mississippi World Wide
Alumni Association, past president of the Kiwanis Club of Laurel, past Lt.
Governor of the Lousiana-Mississippi-West Tennessee District of Kiwanis
International, and past moderator of the Jones County Baptist Association. Mr.
Simmons is also on the board of directors of the University of Southern
Mississippi Foundation. Mr. Simmons is a native of Laurel, Mississippi and
graduated from the University of Southern Mississippi with a B.S. degree.

Date: Apr 18, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Canton Charlie
"Absolutely not so. "Another POV" has it pegged concerning the reasons behind Nissan's site selection. Read his/her earlier posts, as well as those of "No Thames Cheerleader." Nissan did not come to Mississippi because MSU engineers were 130 miles down the road. They brought their own. They came because they were recruited by Mississippi politicos. Among the primary attractions were population, low wages, low cost of living, and many sweet financial concessions. In this electronic age, Nissan engineers in Japan are just as close as Starkville."

Politicos bedeviled. The politicos could have supported any Mississippi site they so chose. More than one site was considered. Any site within Mississippi would have suited the politicos. Among the available sites Nissan chose one (Canton) in close proximity to a relatively large city and a major university with their social and cultural advantages. And it sure wasn't because of the engineers at MS State University. They've got full-time jobs and already do consulting to the extend their school's policy permits. So why can't South Mississippi attract major industry? Don't say "politics." That term is a cop out. There has to be a better reason than that.

Date: Apr 18, 2005

Give us the punch line. If we're interested we'll ask for the joke.

Date: Apr 18, 2005

If attracting industry is solely political, as some here seem to be suggesting, then what's all of this nonsense about an academic program in economic develpment? We'd be better off pushing for a law school so down the road we'd have sufficient legislative support for the next Yugo facory.

Date: Apr 18, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Get to the point
"Give us the punch line. If we're interested we'll ask for the joke."

The punch line, my friend, is that whatever South Mississippi is doing now ain't working. And USM's newly professed trade school mission is ain't gonna work either.