Retribution - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Mar 15, 2005

Retribution

Date: Mar 15, 2005

the letter is written but I'd really like some opinions....the silence makes me think I should keep a lid on it.

Date: Mar 15, 2005

Others can speak more knowledgeably about USM and Hattiesburg, but my own sense is that students are among the few people at any university who can complain about anything without having to worry about repercussions. We always tell students at my school that if anything needs fixing, their complaints have far more effect than those of the faculty! Remember: in the Shelby Thames Business Model, YOU are the customer. Faculty are merely the inmates at the prison.

Seriously, I can't imagine how a student could be harmed by speaking out.

Date: Mar 15, 2005

Question,

I cannot answer your question. However, I'm sure someone will be along who can. I will say this much, we have freedom of speech in this country, use it. If retribution comes along, take legal actions (almost used a violent term) to correct it. Just make sure you document.

Now, if a faculty member will chime in we both would appreciate it.

Date: Mar 15, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Patti
"Question, I cannot answer your question. However, I'm sure someone will be along who can. I will say this much, we have freedom of speech in this country, use it. If retribution comes along, take legal actions (almost used a violent term) to correct it. Just make sure you document. Now, if a faculty member will chime in we both would appreciate it."

I do not believe retribution would be taken against the student. In the past, when the nursing students protested at the dome over the college reorganization, the NURSING FACULTY were the ones to suffer. SFT's "retribution" has harmed the number of faculty, resources and the improvement of facilities. In addition, today's HA talked about the Albertson property and LSM was quoted as saying there was no money for renovations to the current nursing building......

Date: Mar 15, 2005

As long as you don't defame anyone!! Don't say anything negative about anyone you're not willing and able to prove in court.

Date: Mar 15, 2005

So I can't say SFT is not doing what is necessary to get us off sacs probation? or that he is putting out accreditation in jeopardy?

Date: Mar 15, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Questions questions
"Could any kind of retribution be taken against a student for writing letters etc? If anything was done as a result of a student speaking out, would they have any course of action to right any wrongs against them? "

Q. Q.s, I think the exact opposite will occur. As a faculty member I can attest to the fact that students carry more weight. Besides a letter gives you a powerful advantage. Why? Because if you ever get a "B" in a course you thought you should have an "A", you could always challenge the grade and your ace in the hole would be, "I was always afraid someone would take it out on me because of that letter I wrote". You would be a hot potato that no faculty, staff or administrator would want to get on the wrong side of.

Date: Mar 15, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: quest quest
"So I can't say SFT is not doing what is necessary to get us off sacs probation? or that he is putting out accreditation in jeopardy?"

You can say whatever you want as long as it is clear that it is your opinion. That is what free speech is about. Now, if you were a faculty member on academic counsel with in inside view of the SACs process and said that as fact, you might be in for a libel suit if you don't have facts to back it up -- even if those facts are disputable. On theother hand, you might also be fired for "contumaceous behavior" in voicing opposition to university policy . . .

Seriously, you should be fine. The administratoion tis too far removed from you to harm you very much. The only thing I'd fear is if any of your instructors might disagree with your opinions and might be inclined to realiate using the grade. But there are as many hazards for the insturctor in that as for you, so I think it not likely.

Speak up -- even if I disagree, you have the right to say what you think.

Date: Mar 15, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: quest quest
"So I can't say SFT is not doing what is necessary to get us off sacs probation? or that he is putting out accreditation in jeopardy?"

You can say what you want, but the letter would be meaningful if you gave reasons why you think "he is putting our accrediattion in jeopardy". You can give your opinions, but people will pay attention only if you provide the reasons for the opinions.

Date: Mar 15, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Reporter
"You can say what you want, but the letter would be meaningful if you gave reasons why you think "he is putting our accrediattion in jeopardy". You can give your opinions, but people will pay attention only if you provide the reasons for the opinions. "

I hope my didn't din't imply otherwise -- giving reasons is always essential to supporting an opinion. But clearly expressing this as an opinion based on the facts you know while implying that there may be other arguments or facts which you may not know is the best way to avoid getting into trouble . . .

Date: Mar 15, 2005

Well I would like to give reasons but it would make the letter really long, basically the jist of it is the bidness community needs to butt out, thames needs to get off his "the faculty is evil" tip and take responsibilty for getting us on and hopefully off sacs probation. I did mention that for reasons they could see any member of the usm aaup... however let me throw a wrench in the works and ask...what if my department chair was related to thames... would that change anyone's opinion or does that just give me MORE fuel if they were to mess with me?

Date: Mar 15, 2005

Oh, quest - quest, please, please! You can bring up unanswered questions if you write it - you don't have to have all the answers. As a student you have every right to know about the accreditation process. If the chair of whom you speak, is who I think it is --- you've got a ton of ammo.

Date: Mar 15, 2005

Oh you'd have fuel, even if she wasn't related to Thames!!!

Date: Mar 15, 2005

thank you...I guess I'm about to out myself...

Date: Mar 15, 2005

quest quest,

There really isn't a whole lot Thames and his cronies can do to you for publsishing a letter to the editor.

Robert Campbell

Date: Mar 15, 2005

Quest, Quest:

I was always taught to choose my battles carefully for several reasons. This is the way that it was explained to me by someone who was dear to me and that I greatly admired

It is foolish to fight for every little thing that you think is right because anytime you oppose someone there may be serious reprisals. And there may be a better way to get what you want by having honest and fair communication. Repercussions from a fight can be handled legally and others ways but the effort may be a waste of time, energy, and in the end self-defeating.

On the other hand if it is something that is important to you and you feel that you must fight then do so, no matter what the consequencies may be, because there is no worse enemy to have than yourself. That little voice inside that calls you an incompetent coward incessantly for the rest of your life and tells you that if only you had acted, things would be different ...if only, if only. There is nothing that anybody else can do to me that would be worse. Unfortunately there are no quarantees in life, the choice is ours and we have only ourself to blame or to accept the laurels in the end. Good luck and "No Quarter."

Date: Mar 15, 2005

It's pitiful -- and a sign of the sickness currently prevailing at USM -- that any student has to even worry about expressing an opinion on any public issue.

Date: Mar 15, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Student from the Asphalt Jungle
"Quest, Quest: I was always taught to choose my battles carefully for several reasons. This is the way that it was explained to me by someone who was dear to me and that I greatly admired It is foolish to fight for every little thing that you think is right because anytime you oppose someone there may be serious reprisals. ...""

This reminds me of something I heard recently at USM. I was told that the current motto of the deans is the saying, "I rather not fight that fight at this time". It makes the faculty think the dean agrees with their position, but has bigger fish to fry and is afraid to lose the "bigger", "more important" struggle. (This more important struggle can't be discussed because it's so important.) While at the same time it give the dean the out of not doing anything and having the faculty think the dean is on his side. It's a win-win for the dean and the administration. Just a big copout.

Date: Mar 16, 2005

If not a single person came at Thames and company for invading the privacy of their emails, then how the hell do you expect anybody to do ANYTHING about lesser violations of speech, privacy, and academic freedom. All talk and no show. If we on the faculty are not willing to spill some blood in defense of these rights--especially the sanctity of communication--then we deserve what we get. The students sure as hell cannot depend on faculty to defend or do anything!

Date: Mar 16, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: donald
"If not a single person came at Thames and company for invading the privacy of their emails, then how the hell do you expect anybody to do ANYTHING about lesser violations of speech, privacy, and academic freedom. All talk and no show. If we on the faculty are not willing to spill some blood in defense of these rights--especially the sanctity of communication--then we deserve what we get. The students sure as hell cannot depend on faculty to defend or do anything!"

This is exactly what I was talking about. My letter is not attacking anyone though, just saying things need to be done. I am not quite finished yet...everytime I get ready to send it I think of something I can word better etc. I am going to be too busy to send it today and I really hate that cuz I was hoping it might be published Thurs, the day of the meeting.

Date: Mar 16, 2005

Chiming in here as a student, I am also cognizant of the potential risks, the largest for me being that my final transcripts might be "lost in the mail" on their way to Texas. I don't sweat it much, obviously, since I keep running my big mouth about the injustices.

By and large, I think students are the least vulnerable constituency. They aren't likely to mess with you and no one is going to boycott your business. They can't fire you (unless you hold a TA appointment or campus job).

I do agree that part of the 'fear factor" comes from an unwillingness, albeit with reason, on the part of some faculty to "spill some blood" as an earlier poster said. Fortunately, I've been allowed to hang out with the ones who are "out" and have spilled more than a little blood. I'm talking about the Myron Henrys, Amy Youngs, Stephen Judds, Mike Forsters, Frank Glamsers and many others. So, quest, you aren't alone. Even the faculty who aren't out-loud about their opposition are mostly supportive of you behind the scenes. The one or two who won't be aren't likely to seek retribution.

One rule, though, I have found useful. If you are in for a penny, get in for a pound. Don't stick your toe in the pool. You are most vulnerable if you are are only a "little bit" vocal in your opinion. The best protection is either keep the mouth shut or, and I hope you will choose this option, speak loudly and often. It makes any attempt at retribution even more futile on their part.

So far, the worst I have suffered was being called down by SFT in a PUC meeting for raising my voice to Greg Lassen. That one was a badge of honor. If he pulled out the monopoly money and started all that doublespeak, I'd yell at him again.

Date: Mar 16, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: donald
"If not a single person came at Thames and company for invading the privacy of their emails, then how the hell do you expect anybody to do ANYTHING about lesser violations of speech, privacy, and academic freedom. All talk and no show. If we on the faculty are not willing to spill some blood in defense of these rights--especially the sanctity of communication--then we deserve what we get. The students sure as hell cannot depend on faculty to defend or do anything!"

Donald -- I don't know who you are but I jeject your words like "not spilling blood" "cannot depend on the faculty to do anything".

Blood has been spilled -- Frank and Gary -- among others who have been less public. And that blood was spilled because of efforts they have made and for speaking up.

It may be true that a majority of the faculty is not in the font of the fight -- that does not men no faculty are. And frankly -- you never fight a revolution with a majority or you wouldn't have to fight. I'd also like to note that Faculty Senate has done agreat deal of the heavy hauling along with Acadmeic Council. Grad Council and AAUP all working within the institution to create chnage, stop stupid initiatives and protect faculty.

If I do know you -- I hope that you are doing your part. If you are not in the front lines I have some great siuggestions on what you can do to put yourself there -- starting with the trip up to Jackson tomorrow.

We are still engaged . . . . The count on things we have challenged and stopped cold or turned aside is getting pretty sizable. So please don't say the faculty isn't doing anything. It is simply not factual.

Date: Mar 16, 2005

Today I received what appears to be a form-letter communication from my initial alma mater, wonderful wonderful Occidental College, an Athens of the West (they have Phi Beta Kappa, Rhodes scholars, etc.), indicating that the college president decided to disband student government in the face of a student radio program that he thought crossed the line. (Say it ain't so!)

I have written an initial letter back to the communications director saying that I had always cherished the academy (another term for "college" or "university") as a place where hasty judgments are suspended until reasons can be heard and decisions made, and that my own education at Oxy had particularly fostered my appreciation of the academy as a place of cool reason in the face of emotion and prejudice. Indeed, I probably would not approve personally of the radio program as I hear it described, but I approve not at all of totalitarianism.

I added that I now had first-hand evidence of the toxic learning environment that results when constitutional rights are threatened--I included the URL to the Liberty & Power blogs post--and that I would investigate the situation. I indicated that if First Amendment rights were indeed being abridged at Oxy, I would not be making any further alumni contributions until the situation was rectified.

Jameela

Date: Mar 16, 2005

Jameela:

Many on this board know of Occidental College too. It's where they shot all of the school scenes for Beverly Hills 90210.

Date: Mar 16, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: donald
"If not a single person came at Thames and company for invading the privacy of their emails, then how the hell do you expect anybody to do ANYTHING about lesser violations of speech, privacy, and academic freedom. All talk and no show. If we on the faculty are not willing to spill some blood in defense of these rights--especially the sanctity of communication--then we deserve what we get. The students sure as hell cannot depend on faculty to defend or do anything!"

When Shelby Thames tried to justify his unprecedented restructuring of USM’s colleges, he argued that one of his goals was to create new synergism among different units within and between colleges. In terms of research and teaching, this has not happened. However, there has been a remarkable transformation in the faculty in the area of service.

I have seen discussions at Faculty Senate, Graduate Council, and Academic Council evolve from intercollegial sniping with little to no respect for others, to a realization about how much we have in common. We have expanded the definition of “colleague” from a couple of faculty in our department, and perhaps one or two others in closely related disciplines. I am happy to observe that I now have good colleagues in math, accounting, theater, physics, nursing, foreign languages and literature, biology, political science, psychology, management, library, chemistry, and the list can go on and on. Now as I walk across campus, there is friendly joking about Democrats and Republicans, liberals and conservatives, humanities and sciences, but with a profound respect for each other. And I see tremendous solidarity in Faculty Senate, Graduate Council, and Academic Council.

I believe that our collective efforts have had a positive effect at USM, and it is these efforts that have kept us afloat in the most horrific of academic storms. Imagine what we can do with good leadership!

There are many faculty members who are not as “visible” in the press as others. But do not let anyone try to convince outsiders that faculty are not unified in our resolved to fight for appropriate leadership, academic freedom, and shared governance that are absolutely necessary to achieve excellence in USM’s mission of providing higher education. The same shared and sustained energy in service, with the right leadership, can be transferred to research and teaching and allow USM to realize its great potential.

Amy Young

Date: Mar 16, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Amy Young
"The same shared and sustained energy in service, with the right leadership, can be transferred to research and teaching and allow USM to realize its great potential. Amy Young"

I continue to be impressed by your dedication and passion.

Date: Mar 16, 2005

To anyone visiting this board for the first time, please note that the references to "spilling blood" in the preceding posts are

ONLY METAPHORICAL

The are NOT

-- repeat: NOT --

actual threats of violence

(We now return you to our regularly scheduled posts)

Date: Mar 16, 2005

But I believe in the literal interpretation. Take you liberal ideas somewhere else.

Date: Mar 16, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Jameela Lares
"had always cherished the academy (another term for "college" or "university") "

Although this is a deviation from the intent of your post, Dr. Lares, my understanding is that "the academy" refers to the greater profession of academics and is, therefore, much more comprehensive than college or university. I'm not trying to quibble but rather to justify that it is one of the reasons academics in colleges and universities across the states and around the world are interested in the happenings at USM. Shelby Thames has assaulted the academy, not just the university.