S.H. Letter - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Mar 10, 2005

RE: RE: S.H. Letter

Date: Mar 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: One Good Democrat
"Good point. I've got no idea who will constitute the 250-300 "businessmen" slated to attend tonight's festivities (I wasn't invited), but several of my friends, ALL of them active in the Democratic party, have mentioned that they'll be there. As far as I know, they're all great friends of the Thames family, either through his connections with the Baptist church, or as fellow members of the Hattiesburg Country Club. Most of them are very well-to-do, at least by Mississippi standards. "

Many of those that are attending tonight are democrats; support of SFT is a bipartisan matter that is why party affiliation should be left out of the discussion...it is silly.

Date: Mar 10, 2005

I really don't think that anyone on this board is suggesting that others should not be free to express their personal political opinions. I do think, though, that some of us have suggested that there is no practical point in using THIS BOARD as the forum for doing so, since doing so only sows division in the ranks (as I think this thread amply demonstrates). The points made by Liberal Student are very much worth discussing and debating, but perhaps not here and not now. If I were debating them, for instance, I would begin by arguing that liberal academe (which is to say: most of academe) has brought many of its problems on itself by being so dogmatic, so intolerant, and so out of touch with the values of most of the rest of the country. However, if we got into that debate here, it would go on forever, and we would be distracted from our common opposition to Shelby.

Simply from a practical, pragmatic point of view, I agree aith AE: attacking conservatives in a basically conservative state plays right into the hands of Shelby. It is not the pragmatic thing to do AT THIS TIME, when we need all the allies we can get. Doing so won't change anyone's opinions (changing people's ways of thinking is a gradual process that involves real give-and-take and also being open to the possibility of altering one's own views as well). I write, by the way, not as a conservative but as (if anything) a libertarian; I can see merits in the arguments of both conservatives and liberals on various issues, but I frankly don't see any practical point in interjecting politics into the discussion at this time and on this board. I say this, by the way, with the greatest of personal respect to Liberal Student if LS is indeed FS. We are ALL in YOUR debt.

Date: Mar 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Liberal Liberal-Arts Student
"
fact that some of the problems at USM are fostered by Republican ideology, because there are so many Republicans in Hattiesburg who will side with Thames just because he comes across as conservative. What that says to me is that it's the Republicans in Hattiesburg who support Thames against their own interests who need to think more critically.
"

Look, it's obvious you just don't understand local politics. The primary reason people in Southern Mississippi identify with and vote along Republican lines is the fact that the Republican Party espouses many of their beliefs. Their political ideology is an off-shoot of their religious ideology, and that almost universally encompasses conservative values. Often linked to those cultural norms are rough economic values, that generally think the market is always a force for good. If you immediatley impugne people's core beliefs, guess what? They STOP LISTENING!!!

There are two ways to address this in a framework that people understand...

1) Talk about the economic impact of the decline of USM under Shelby to graduates and alumni; i.e., you can't even run a business this poorly and succeed, lower value of degrees, etc...

2) Discuss the values inherent in a liberal arts education that make it worthwhile to people of faith, and those with conservative values; critical thinking, reading and writing skills, civic understanding and pride, community involvement and service, etc...

You're analysis is that Shelby = Privatization = Republican Ideology = Republicans = Evil. I won't totally discount the problem of looking at a university primarily as an economic engine and mining it for resources, or that most people pushing it are Republicans, but by framing the issue this way you lose the debate. You've got to offer an alternative vision that a) people can relate to and b) that doesn't primarily paint them as ignorant hicks.

The goal is clear; frame the strategy that reaches the goal. Adopting your strategy is signing our own death warrant.

Date: Mar 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Just an opinion
"I really don't think that anyone on this board is suggesting that others should not be free to express their personal political opinions. I do think, though, that some of us have suggested that there is no practical point in using THIS BOARD as the forum for doing so, since doing so only sows division in the ranks (as I think this thread amply demonstrates)."

Having been excoriated for "politicizing" & having subsequently taken the pledge, I must agree.

But perhaps a challenge for all of us is to explain to our friends & neighbors that just because particular political "leaders" support SFT doesn't mean that his agenda is "conservative" (if anything, it is radical) & that maybe those "leaders" need to become "former leaders."

Yes, there will be Democraps as well as Republikans present at the soireé tonight. What this really illustrates is the "good ole boy" mentality which holds that cronyism, favoritism, oligarchy & abridgement of civil liberties for the unprivileged are acceptable philosophies is as alive & well in Mississippi as it was in the days of Bilbo.

After thinking this through, I view tonight's meeting as the last gasp of Hattiesburg's old "blue blood" social group. They are losing control that they've had since the dawn of the 20th century -- Dupree's election is symptomatic of this -- and it's driving them crazy.

"Either get braced for elimination or your hearts must have the courage for the changing of the guards."

Date: Mar 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Longhorn Eagle
" Look, it's obvious you just don't understand local politics. The primary reason people in Southern Mississippi identify with and vote along Republican lines is the fact that the Republican Party espouses many of their beliefs. Their political ideology is an off-shoot of their religious ideology, and that almost universally encompasses conservative values. Often linked to those cultural norms are rough economic values, that generally think the market is always a force for good. If you immediatley impugne people's core beliefs, guess what? They STOP LISTENING!!! There are two ways to address this in a framework that people understand... 1) Talk about the economic impact of the decline of USM under Shelby to graduates and alumni; i.e., you can't even run a business this poorly and succeed, lower value of degrees, etc... 2) Discuss the values inherent in a liberal arts education that make it worthwhile to people of faith, and those with conservative values; critical thinking, reading and writing skills, civic understanding and pride, community involvement and service, etc... You're analysis is that Shelby = Privatization = Republican Ideology = Republicans = Evil. I won't totally discount the problem of looking at a university primarily as an economic engine and mining it for resources, or that most people pushing it are Republicans, but by framing the issue this way you lose the debate. You've got to offer an alternative vision that a) people can relate to and b) that doesn't primarily paint them as ignorant hicks. The goal is clear; frame the strategy that reaches the goal. Adopting your strategy is signing our own death warrant. "

I know I said I'd shut up, but I've got to second your incisive post. This is exactly what I was trying to say earlier, but you've done a much more effective job. Thanks for sharing your insights, which are dead on, in my humble opinion.

Date: Mar 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: One Good Democrat
"Good point. I've got no idea who will constitute the 250-300 "businessmen" slated to attend tonight's festivities (I wasn't invited), but several of my friends, ALL of them active in the Democratic party, have mentioned that they'll be there. As far as I know, they're all great friends of the Thames family, either through his connections with the Baptist church, or as fellow members of the Hattiesburg Country Club. Most of them are very well-to-do, at least by Mississippi standards. "

Then I hope we can count on you for a full report. I'm still puzzled as to how they plan to spread the good news without any media present.

Date: Mar 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: LVN
"I'm still puzzled as to how they plan to spread the good news without any media present."

EXCELLENT point! They have already tangled themselves in an incredible number of contradictory statements, and the meeting hasn't even yet begun! No WONDER they don't want a public record.

Date: Mar 10, 2005

Logicl Principle: You can't change a person's opinion with logic, no matter how good the logic, if the person's opinion is based on belief. You can't change a person's logic with arguments based on beliefs not shared.

Both politics and religion have too many foundation beliefs for progress to be made in short periods of time. One side will have to "deprograme" the other to make progress.

Date: Mar 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Philosopher
"Logicl Principle: You can't change a person's opinion with logic, no matter how good the logic, if the person's opinion is based on belief. You can't change a person's logic with arguments based on beliefs not shared. Both politics and religion have too many foundation beliefs for progress to be made in short periods of time. One side will have to "deprograme" the other to make progress."

Yes, and often the best way to change other people's opinions is just to be oneself around them. If they realize that you are not evil but simply hold beliefs contrary to theirs, they may begin to question their own opinions about those contrary beliefs. Immediately attacking another person as malevolent or stupid is not the best way to initiate a conversion process. Rarely have I had my mind changed by someone attacking me or mocking me, but I have often changed my opinion when I have had a chance to think about the views of someone I have come to respect -- usually a person who made no obvious effort to change my mind.

Date: Mar 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Just an opinion
"Yes, and often the best way to change other people's opinions is just to be oneself around them. If they realize that you are not evil but simply hold beliefs contrary to theirs, they may begin to question their own opinions about those contrary beliefs. Immediately attacking another person as malevolent or stupid is not the best way to initiate a conversion process. Rarely have I had my mind changed by someone attacking me or mocking me, but I have often changed my opinion when I have had a chance to think about the views of someone I have come to respect -- usually a person who made no obvious effort to change my mind."

I agree, J.A.O. I bet we all had similar experiences. This is how good teachers reach some students. At bottom, this is why the faculty must maintain the moral high ground. Some say you must use the tactics of your enemy to win, but I disagree for the reasons you state here. Basically this is the same reason why terrorism will never win.

Date: Mar 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Sparkplug
"
I am very sorry for your loss."

Thank you. When my dad died in December (guess I shouldn't have said "just") the folks on this board were very kind. I brought it up because it occurred to me that if he hadn't passed away, and was still at Bedford, I would not be on this board today. I would be desperately trying to figure out how my family would manage his care, just as many other families are doing today. I also wondered how we would have managed his final days at home without the excellent nursing care we got from hospice -- that's one reason I'm convinced that the nursing story is one of the keys to our present struggle for USM.

My point was that we have a governor and a legislature who, R or D, are letting the state down big-time. If they cant' deal with something as critical as Medicaid, I have very little confidence that they can deal with higher education.

Date: Mar 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: LVN
"

Thank you. When my dad died in December (guess I shouldn't have said "just") the folks on this board were very kind. I brought it up because it occurred to me that if he hadn't passed away, and was still at Bedford, I would not be on this board today. I would be desperately trying to figure out how my family would manage his care, just as many other families are doing today. I also wondered how we would have managed his final days at home without the excellent nursing care we got from hospice -- that's one reason I'm convinced that the nursing story is one of the keys to our present struggle for USM.

My point was that we have a governor and a legislature who, R or D, are letting the state down big-time. If they cant' deal with something as critical as Medicaid, I have very little confidence that they can deal with higher education. "

I gathered that his death wasn't something that just happened. Even though I am new to this, I can tell that you wouldn't have been posting away if it had. I agree that our legistlature can't deal with Medicaid; they just choose to keep putting it on the back burner. Regarding higher education, the legislature doesn't even try to deal with it. They leave that to the idiotic IHL and we know how they handle higher education: give everything to Ole Miss and State and leave all the other schools to fend for themselves!

Date: Mar 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: LVN
" Then I hope we can count on you for a full report. I'm still puzzled as to how they plan to spread the good news without any media present."

I'll do what I can, but I should inform you that my opinions concerning Shelby Thames are well known and when I'm present any discussions of his glorious leadership abilities typically cease. If you hear nothing from me it'll be due to my having been shunned by the Thames cheerleaders. I'm sure they'll only put out what they want people to hear anyway, much like the pap we're fed from political conventions.

Date: Mar 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: One Good Democrat
"I'll do what I can, but I should inform you that my opinions concerning Shelby Thames are well known and when I'm present any discussions of his glorious leadership abilities typically cease. If you hear nothing from me it'll be due to my having been shunned by the Thames cheerleaders. I'm sure they'll only put out what they want people to hear anyway, much like the pap we're fed from political conventions."

It should be obvious that we need a mole inside the Thames camp. Since you've already admitted to knowing some of the community heavyweights, what's the possibility of acting as though you're a convert to the gospel according to St. Shelby, and feeding us some insider intelligence? We'd make it worth your while. Anything you want. Anything.

Date: Mar 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: G. Gordon Liddy
"It should be obvious that we need a mole inside the Thames camp. Since you've already admitted to knowing some of the community heavyweights, what's the possibility of acting as though you're a convert to the gospel according to St. Shelby, and feeding us some insider intelligence? We'd make it worth your while. Anything you want. Anything. "

G. Gordon:

If Mader is really departing for Jackson, I'd say it wouldn't be that tough to wheedle some info from her. I've heard her open up after a few toddies at the Mahogany, and her opinion of ole Shelby isn't that high.

H.R.