Free speech in the LAB? I don't think so... - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Mar 9, 2005

Free speech in the LAB? I don't think so...

Date: Mar 9, 2005

(Sigh.) Okay, back to page 1. You can't make sweeping generalizations in an argument. Do you want to provide names, dates, details? Which departments? Which classes? Which professors?

Otherwise, this statement is mere slander.

Date: Mar 9, 2005

Slander requires a named target. The message put forth is like many on this mostly anonymous board from all sides. It is a list of unsubstantiated or baseless facts.

Main Entry: slander
Function: noun
Etymology: Anglo-French esclandre, from Old French escandle esclandre scandal, from Late Latin scandalum moral stumbling block, disgrace, from Greek skandalon, literally, snare, trap
1 : defamation of a person by unprivileged oral communication made to a third party; also : defamatory oral statements
2 : the tort of oral defamation <sued his former employer for slander> —compare DEFAMATION, FALSE LIGHT, LIBEL
NOTE: An action for slander may be brought without alleging and proving special damages if the statements in question have a plainly harmful character, as by imputing to the plaintiff criminal guilt, serious sexual misconduct, or conduct or a characteristic affecting his or her business or profession. —slan·der·ous /'slan-d&-r&s/ adjective —slan·der·ous·ly adverb —slan·der·ous·ness noun

Date: Mar 9, 2005

Touché! The word "slander" was ill-chosen, since groups cannot sue for it. See http://www.answers.com/topic/slander-and-libel. Not that I was intending it in a legal sense. But yes, the word is a bit hyperbolic.

(You've raised, by the way, just the kind of thoughtful objection that a liberal arts professor hopes for from a student.)

Date: Mar 9, 2005

Saying that one must adhere to strict rules of arguments is like saying that one must adhere to strict rules in a barroom brawl. If the objective is to win, then anything goes -- generalizations, obfuscations, brass knuckles, etc.

Further, I am not quite sure why we play by "rules" when our enemies obviously do not. There is no such thing as "dying honorably" in this fight with Shelby and others.

Date: Mar 9, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Rules of the Road
"Saying that one must adhere to strict rules of arguments is like saying that one must adhere to strict rules in a barroom brawl. If the objective is to win, then anything goes -- generalizations, obfuscations, brass knuckles, etc. Further, I am not quite sure why we play by "rules" when our enemies obviously do not. There is no such thing as "dying honorably" in this fight with Shelby and others."

But Truth is principled, RR. Even on the road, you've got to stay on your side to avoid a collision.

Date: Mar 10, 2005

I completely understand and agree with many of the arguments against Thames. That is not my point. There are a lot of other campus issues that are not as clear cut as that subject, yet the other sides of the story are often never discussed. The fight is against Thames, not the students. Furthermore, I said "many" not "all" professors engage in these actions, and the reason why I will not mention names, dates, etc. is for the exact reason why I don't express my opinions in class. If I gave you all of the details, the specific teachers that I am talking about could possible figure out my identity. Trust me, I would love to post the words spoken by these professors verbatim, but I cannot. I'm doing very well in these classes, and I would hate to see a sudden change in the grading pattern...

Some of my favorite professors are LAB faculty, and this is not meant to offend them in anyway...

The professors that act in the manner that I explained, know it...trust me..

those who are innocent and actually hold healthy debates in their class, know that as well..

take a look in the mirror and see which one you are...

Date: Mar 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Larry Hustler
"I completely understand and agree with many of the arguments against Thames. That is not my point. There are a lot of other campus issues that are not as clear cut as that subject, yet the other sides of the story are often never discussed. The fight is against Thames, not the students. Furthermore, I said "many" not "all" professors engage in these actions, and the reason why I will not mention names, dates, etc. is for the exact reason why I don't express my opinions in class. If I gave you all of the details, the specific teachers that I am talking about could possible figure out my identity. Trust me, I would love to post the words spoken by these professors verbatim, but I cannot. I'm doing very well in these classes, and I would hate to see a sudden change in the grading pattern... Some of my favorite professors are LAB faculty, and this is not meant to offend them in anyway... The professors that act in the manner that I explained, know it...trust me.. those who are innocent and actually hold healthy debates in their class, know that as well.. take a look in the mirror and see which one you are... "

If you don't like what they say in class, then follow the proper channels. Report them to their chairs. Or, better yet, wait until evaluation time and give them a bad evaluation. That'll show 'em!

Date: Mar 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: thought police
"If you don't like what they say in class, then follow the proper channels. Report them to their chairs. Or, better yet, wait until evaluation time and give them a bad evaluation. That'll show 'em!"

You are joking, right? Have you heard of that wonderful thing called tenure?

Date: Mar 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Sparkplug
"You are joking, right? Have you heard of that wonderful thing called tenure?"

And tenure still means something at USM? Not likely. Plus are all of these wayward professors tenured?

Date: Mar 10, 2005

Sparkplug, I am not going to get into a heated debate with you about tenure and what it entails. That is for someone more knowledgable than I.
However, I will explain to you just what the value of tenure is, to me.

For me, it is all about job security. Not security when I am not doing well, but just the sheer fact of knowing I will have a job next semester. I work for USM, I am an adjunct. I am also an adjunct at another community college. I teach 7 classes, right now, 7. Not in a year, but this semester, over these few months. Regardless of the fact, I am not making money and am extremely cheap labor, regardless of the fact that at both schools, (3 at USM and 4 elsewhere) I am technically teaching a full load and regardless of the fact I have no insurance, no benefits and no retirement plan, I want to keep doing it. I want to keep teaching. I love it. I love it when a student tells me that they have enjoyed my class and have learned something.
Point being, the semester ends in two months and I have no idea, no guarantee and no offer of any classes this summer--or the fall for that matter. I am completely at the mercy of enrollment and availability. And while, yes, this is my choice, to work as I do, it is also my right to know if I will even have a job.
In addition, I am currently seeking a full time job at the other school at which I teach. Because their administration has become more business-like, they don't even offer tenure. Those who have it, keep it and the new people just don't get it.

Imagine, tonight, when you get off your shift at McDonald's, if your boss told you that after tomorrow you no longer have a job.
Now, imagine if you had worked there 20 years.

Date: Mar 10, 2005

A reminder in the midst of this: the problems of "contingent" faculty are among the concerns of the AAUP. This may not be apparent from the local AAUP chapter, as they're caught up in the mess that Shelby has created, but the national AAUP works for the rights of contingent faculty. If you haven't joined yet, here is yet another reason.

Date: Mar 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: thought police
"And tenure still means something at USM? Not likely. Plus are all of these wayward professors tenured?"
Is Malone tenured? I've heard he's made that claim, although I don't understand how that could be, other than by executive fiat.

And Lassen?

What about W.J. Johnson, or have we run him off?

Seriously, is there some loophole that allows Thames to bypass process and confer tenure on his flunkies?

Date: Mar 10, 2005

Obviously Larry will need to answer that, but I think the point is moot. It would appear from the postings on the board alone that any train of thought that doesn't match with the "liberal" train of thought is deemed sub par and would therefore not be given any credence. So whether they have tenure or not, their "LAB" family would side with their superior thought processes and not the student. Honestly, how many times does the student actually win in a battle with a professor (tenured or not)?

Date: Mar 10, 2005

Okay Shelby, just because you are known too "get around" in the sorority circles doesn't make you a Hustler, just a sick old man is all.

You Dirty Old Troll You.

NC

Date: Mar 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: thought police
"If you don't like what they say in class, then follow the proper channels. Report them to their chairs. Or, better yet, wait until evaluation time and give them a bad evaluation. That'll show 'em!"

The fact that a member of the faculty is tenured does not mean that students cannot have an impact through their evaluations (as was implied above). Most faculty members read their evaluations with great interest, and if there is a consistent pattern of negative comment by students, most faculty members would be foolish to ignore them. Such a pattern might negatively affect raises, awards, promotions, etc. More important, most people who are honest with themselves will want to correct mistakes if they are pointed out by large numbers of unbiased observers. Faculty can usually discern when an intelligent student is making an intelligent criticism and when an untalented student is merely taking revenge for poor grades. (For one thing, the latter such comments are usually full of grammatical and mechanical errors.)

So, I would urge you and other students who feel as you do to express yourselves on the evaluations and perhaps even write a letter (anonymous, if you wish) to the professor(s) concerned after the class has ended. No professor should be using his or her class to preach; instead, healthy debate should be encouraged. I know that I personally bend over backwards NOT to penalize students with whom I may disagree. In fact, I am teaching a class right now that is full of students with whom I strongly disagree on (religious) issues on which they are all too willing to express their opinions; mainly I just let them talk without expressing an opinion of my own, unless the discussion gets too far off topic.

The professors who had the most effect on shaping my own opinions were the ones who were most open-minded. I once took classes from two professors who basically shared the same views. One tried to shove his views down our throats and was intolerant of disagreement; I eventually dropped that class. The other basically said, "look, here are my views, see what you think; if you don't like them, that's fine; what do *you* think?" I eventually became a convert to those views thanks to the open-mindedness of the second professor.

Date: Mar 10, 2005

RE: RE: Free speech in the LAB? I don't think so..

Date: Mar 10, 2005

RE: RE: Free speech in the LAB? I don't think so...

Date: Mar 10, 2005

In earlier ages, students were expected to be able to argue any side of a controversial issue, no matter what their personal opinions were. I often wish we would go back to such a way of teaching and studying. Sometimes we learn most (about our own views and those of others) when we are forced (as a pedagocial exercise) to argue for a position we may not initially approve.

Date: Mar 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Larry Hustler
" Furthermore, I said "many" not "all" professors engage in these actions, and the reason why I will not mention names, dates, etc. is for the exact reason why I don't express my opinions in class. If I gave you all of the details, the specific teachers that I am talking about could possible figure out my identity. Trust me, I would love to post the words spoken by these professors verbatim, but I cannot. I'm doing very well in these classes, and I would hate to see a sudden change in the grading pattern... Some of my favorite professors are LAB faculty, and this is not meant to offend them in anyway... The professors that act in the manner that I explained, know it...trust me.. those who are innocent and actually hold healthy debates in their class, know that as well.. take a look in the mirror and see which one you are... "

Larry, all of this is about ideas. We can't "trust" you. Not because you are not a great guy or honest, but because we are dealing with ideas and arguments. These have to be backed up with evidence not opinion. We have no way of telling what was said, how you interpreted it, if your interpretation was correct, etc. Surely you can state what was said for us to judge. Are you the only person in the class?

I had a problem once with a student majoring in Liberal Arts who was taking my science course. She wrote a letter to my chair and dean to complain about my teaching. She said I didn't allow opinions in class that differed from my opinions. It had to be pointed out to her that "everyone is entitled to their opinion" is not valid in science as it may be in Liberal Arts, because experiments with the physical universe decides the issue and not peoples opinion. She was unaware of the peer-reviewed journals being refereed by anonymous scientist so guarantee that things published are thoroughly tested. This was a shock to her, her worldview and what she thought "Truth" was.

Date: Mar 10, 2005

Philosopher,

You mean gravity is not a matter of opinion? Dang!

Date: Mar 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Philosopher
"
It had to be pointed out to her that "everyone is entitled to their opinion" is not valid in science as it may be in Liberal Arts, because experiments with the physical universe decides the issue and not peoples opinion. She was unaware of the peer-reviewed journals being refereed by anonymous scientist so guarantee that things published are thoroughly tested. This was a shock to her, her worldview and what she thought "Truth" was.
"

Actually, "Everyone is entitled to their opinion" is not valid in any discipline that values critical thinking. And liberals arts journals are peer-reviewed too!

Date: Mar 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Philosopher
" Larry, all of this is about ideas. We can't "trust" you. Not because you are not a great guy or honest, but because we are dealing with ideas and arguments. These have to be backed up with evidence not opinion. We have no way of telling what was said, how you interpreted it, if your interpretation was correct, etc. Surely you can state what was said for us to judge. Are you the only person in the class? I had a problem once with a student majoring in Liberal Arts who was taking my science course. She wrote a letter to my chair and dean to complain about my teaching. She said I didn't allow opinions in class that differed from my opinions. It had to be pointed out to her that "everyone is entitled to their opinion" is not valid in science as it may be in Liberal Arts, because experiments with the physical universe decides the issue and not peoples opinion. She was unaware of the peer-reviewed journals being refereed by anonymous scientist so guarantee that things published are thoroughly tested. This was a shock to her, her worldview and what she thought "Truth" was. "

Of course, we all know that Science is unchanging and blissfully free of opinions, correct? There's only One Truth in Science, and it's all about what we can "observe," right? Ever heard of the Heisenberg Principle?

Puh-leaze...if this were really true ("no opinions allowed"), then we'd all still believe in the Flat Earth principle. I'm tired of Science folks thinking that they have the market cornered on Truth.

Date: Mar 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Paradigm Shift
" Of course, we all know that Science is unchanging and blissfully free of opinions, correct? There's only One Truth in Science, and it's all about what we can "observe," right? Ever heard of the Heisenberg Principle? Puh-leaze...if this were really true ("no opinions allowed"), then we'd all still believe in the Flat Earth principle. I'm tired of Science folks thinking that they have the market cornered on Truth."

Paradigm Shift, of course you are correct to point out that "scientist" working at the frontiers of knowledge have differing opinions about some interpretations of theory and/or experimental results. The progress is made once all can agree on the "best" model and explanation that fits all of the results with the least number of assumptions.

I was talking about a Liberal Arts major taking an into science course covering material centuries old and having an opinion which lost the experimental test over a couple of centuries ago. That experiments contradicted her opinion did not hold any weight with her. (Just in case you may think I'm discussing some controversial subject, the course was Astronomy.)

I never said Science has "the market cornered on the Truth". Do I think it? I haven't found another "**method**" of arriving at "Truth", if you have another then please inform me. It will be very valuable.

I agree with Foot Soldier's statement about opinions. For some reason many people think they have a right to their opinion even though they have no reason, evidence or facts to back their opinion up. They can think what they want, but my chair and dean would rather they not write letters to them about it.

Date: Mar 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Philosopher
" Paradigm Shift, of course you are correct to point out that "scientist" working at the frontiers of knowledge have differing opinions about some interpretations of theory and/or experimental results. The progress is made once all can agree on the "best" model and explanation that fits all of the results with the least number of assumptions. I was talking about a Liberal Arts major taking an into science course covering material centuries old and having an opinion which lost the experimental test over a couple of centuries ago. That experiments contradicted her opinion did not hold any weight with her. (Just in case you may think I'm discussing some controversial subject, the course was Astronomy.) I never said Science has "the market cornered on the Truth". Do I think it? I haven't found another "**method**" of arriving at "Truth", if you have another then please inform me. It will be very valuable. I agree with Foot Soldier's statement about opinions. For some reason many people think they have a right to their opinion even though they have no reason, evidence or facts to back their opinion up. They can think what they want, but my chair and dean would rather they not write letters to them about it. "

Thanks for taking my cranky comments seriously. I appreciate it. Though, cranky as they were, I still stand by the fact that Science has not cornered the market on Truth--or as the "method" of arriving at Truth. As many will tell you, there are plenty of others "methods" for arriving at Truth, as Truth is a slippery thing. Some of these methods are: religious or spiritual experiences, writing and literature, psychotropic drugs, meditation, experiences in nature, etc. etc. All are valid and Truth is, finally, a highly subjective concept, like it or not.

Date: Mar 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Paradigm Shift
"Thanks for taking my cranky comments seriously. I appreciate it. Though, cranky as they were, I still stand by the fact that Science has not cornered the market on Truth--or as the "method" of arriving at Truth. As many will tell you, there are plenty of others "methods" for arriving at Truth, as Truth is a slippery thing. Some of these methods are: religious or spiritual experiences, writing and literature, psychotropic drugs, meditation, experiences in nature, etc. etc. All are valid and Truth is, finally, a highly subjective concept, like it or not."

I didn't think your comments "cranky", Paradigm Shift, although I do tend to read for content rather than other things.

We are discussing different things if you think Truth is subjective. (I may have had this conversation with you before.) I'm a stickler for precise use of terms. By Truth I mean something that is objective, and can be determined by all in an objective way. Religious or spiritual experiences can never be True. It is too subjective and the person experiencing has no way to check or test their interpretations. So how can even they say it is true? Probably because they don't demand evidence very much in their life and are use to believing things people say if the person speaking uses good psychology with them. This is why we have infinity of "religious truths". All of those "truths are relative to the "religion" so they are not absolute. Remember just because people say they are true doesn't make it true. These are better described by the words "beliefs" or "opinions".

How did you determine that saying "subjective beliefs" = truth is a valid method of determining truth. The fact that it leads to immense disagreements is evidence it is not a valid way to truth. (Can you imagine your car mechanic or surgeon using that method?) Why misuse precise words unless you are not trying to find truth, but rather trying not to threaten your belief system.

I enjoyed the discussion and I hope I didn’t offend.