Walter Williams column in HA - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Mar 6, 2005

Walter Williams column in HA

Date: Mar 6, 2005

If I recall the blurb that ran with Williams' last column, the HA is currently carrying it on a trial basis & asked for input about whether it should become a regular feature. I suggest anyone who takes offense to his assertions about professors should contact the HA & ask that they not subscribe to that particular columnist. The HA is still poking around trying to find a "conservative" columnist to fill the gap left by the other African-American Williams who turned out to be on the take...

That said, has it occurred to anyone (besides me) that the attack on college professors has long been a component of the conservative agenda?

Date: Mar 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
"That said, has it occurred to anyone (besides me) that the attack on college professors has long been a component of the conservative agenda? "

This is probably not the place to get into such a discussion, but it has to be said that certain faculty (Ward Churchill comes to mind) have made it exceedingly easy for people like Walter Williams to make these kinds of arguments. Much of academia really is, demonstrably, out of touch with the values of the rest of the population; in this respect we have, like Shelby, been shooting off our own toes right and left. However, we should probably not get into an extended discussion of this issue lest it distract us from the important issues at hand.

Date: Mar 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Just an opinion
"This is probably not the place to get into such a discussion, but it has to be said that certain faculty (Ward Churchill comes to mind) have made it exceedingly easy for people like Walter Williams to make these kinds of arguments. Much of academia really is, demonstrably, out of touch with the values of the rest of the population; in this respect we have, like Shelby, been shooting off our own toes right and left. However, we should probably not get into an extended discussion of this issue lest it distract us from the important issues at hand."

Walter Williams is a professor at George Mason University, so I think he is qualified to make such a statement.

Date: Mar 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
"If I recall the blurb that ran with Williams' last column, the HA is currently carrying it on a trial basis & asked for input about whether it should become a regular feature. I suggest anyone who takes offense to his assertions about professors should contact the HA & ask that they not subscribe to that particular columnist. The HA is still poking around trying to find a "conservative" columnist to fill the gap left by the other African-American Williams who turned out to be on the take... That said, has it occurred to anyone (besides me) that the attack on college professors has long been a component of the conservative agenda? "

Oh yeah --

I well remember the covert tape recording of professors in the 1980's -- I was at Duke then. That was encouraged by conservatives and particularly evangelical conservatives and it targetted professors in the arts, sociology; black studies, women studies . . . the usual suspects.

When I was at SUNY in 1997-98 Change New York was demanding the syllabi and resumes of all professors teachingin the College of the Arts, Women's Studies and Black Studies.

Then of course, there is Allan Horowitz.

So yep -- it actually isn't anything new. Only the tactics change.

Now the tactic is to first weaken the public's respect for the professorite by attacking its work ethic and labelling it "elitist" as well as liberal. Then you can go after individual or individual programs because you have weakened the public's connection to and respect for the faculty as a whole.

Date: Mar 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Sparkplug
"Walter Williams is a professor at George Mason University, so I think he is qualified to make such a statement."

What he is is a conservative mouthpiece. And he is parroting the party line. Do I need to do another deconstruction of the Republican Party agenda since 1980 with particular reference to Bill Bennett, Ronald Reagan & Haley Barbour? We are not talking about "friends" of public education, folks; we're talking about people who believe that public education is inherently a wasteful, evil thing.

Does anyone recall that it was "The Great Communicator" who, as governor, gave the president at San Francisco State (S.I. Hiyakawa, a beloved icon of the "family values" movement & later U.S. Senator) permission to "shoot to kill" during a student demonstration around 1970?

I note that the HA has decided to make Williams a regular on its Sunday editorial page. Probably he's 99.9% in line with the mentality in Hattiesburg, so great. Enjoy! And bear in mind that the HA has just tacitly endorsed the concept that professors are lazy, overpaid, do-nothing slackers.

Date: Mar 6, 2005

I forgot to add that Thomas Jefferson (IIRC) said something about an educated populace being necessary to the survival of a democracy. This is precisely why those who prefer to think of the United States as a "republic" & not as a "democracy" are fundamentally opposed to quality public education. What they want is quality public training to mass produce cogs that can fit into their corporatism machine inter-replaceably.

I happen to remember the sign that was on Woody Guthrie's guitar.

This land is your land. This land is my land.

Date: Mar 6, 2005

I think you will be making a big mistake if you allow the anti-SFT position to be presented as the leftist part of a left-vs.-right debate. Those opposed to Thames will almost surely lose if they allow the issue to be framed this way. I am personally a thousand percent opposed to Thames, but I also know that there is a liberal orthodoxy in certain parts of the academy that does not brook debate or even questioning. Opposition to Thames should be rooted in our common commitment to academic integrity and the best values of higher education. If we allow ourselves to get painted as Churchillians (in the recent, unfortunate sense of that word), we lose big time. (I speak, by the way, more as a libertarian than as a conservative per se.)

Date: Mar 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
"I forgot to add that Thomas Jefferson (IIRC) said something about an educated populace being necessary to the survival of a democracy. This is precisely why those who prefer to think of the United States as a "republic" & not as a "democracy" are fundamentally opposed to quality public education. What they want is quality public training to mass produce cogs that can fit into their corporatism machine inter-replaceably. I happen to remember the sign that was on Woody Guthrie's guitar. This land is your land. This land is my land."

I was just wanting to point out, that among many other things, he is "one of you." So yes, he may be conservative, he may be Republican, but he is also intelligent, well-educated, articutlate, and does his research (I happened to have enjoyed his column...except for his last sentence)!

Date: Mar 6, 2005

If my characterization of the anti-intellectual movement as "conservative" offends you, I suggest you hop right down to the Coke Plant on March 10 & write your check to support Shelby.

True conservatives need the hell to wake up & see what is being done in the name of "conservatism." It's enough to make you embarrassed. Barry Goldwater is rolling in his grave.

So... Show me one damned liberal that's on the list of sponsors for the Coke Plant putsch.

Date: Mar 6, 2005

Very early on in this battle, I suggested selling our perspective the way that this community will buy it, not necessarily in the way that we are most comfortable selling it.

If you ran a company and your top manager was responsible for the chronic turmoil and legitimate complaints of 90% of your employees, would you fire that manager?

If you ran a company and your top manager was constantly getting you bad press, would you fire that manager?

If you ran a company and your top manager was at the helm when you took a dive in consumer rankings, would you fire that manager?

If you ran a company and your top manager was repeatedly getting you sued, would you fire that manager?

If you ran a company and your market share was declining, would you fire that manager?

If you ran a company and your top manager got you put on notice for non-compliance with a regulatory agency, would you fire that manager?

If you ran a company and your top manager was responsible for a decline in product quality, would you fire that manager?

If you ran a company and your top manager wasted money through settlements, recruitment, and training resulting from excessive turnover, would you fire that manager?

If you ran a company and your top manager lied to you, would you fire that manager?

Shelby Thames is just a manager and, obviously, a poor one. It's past time for the IHL to fire him. Isn't that what you would do if he were running your business?

Date: Mar 6, 2005

I'm in full agreement with Just an Opinion here.

On many issues, Walter Williams is a libertarian rather than a conservative. He does not take the Reagan administration line--or the Bush Jr. administration line--or, for that matter, the Clinton administration line--on the War on Drugs. I don't know whether the American will run what he has to say about the War on Drugs, but if it does, you can count on it to upset some readers.

That said, like some other libertarians I am familiar with, WW is allowing his bitterness about the way people with his political views are treated in certain areas of academia to take the place of careful economic analysis of the way universities work.

Any economist who makes comments about faculty productivity at universities--and fails to examine administrative productivity there--simply hasn't done his homework.

The left-liberal counterpart would be Paul Krugman writing about Social Security reform...

Robert Campbell

Date: Mar 6, 2005

Excellent points....

For some reason faculty(most universities) assume everyone thinks and understands all the issues at the unviersity.

We must present our case in different terms, in a way the average person can relate to in their daily lives.

As someone pointed our earlier, most people dont care about shared goverance, but give them some juicy item (Malone's comment about Kevin Walters) and they will quickly become interested.

Date: Mar 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
"True conservatives need the hell to wake up & see what is being done in the name of "conservatism." It's enough to make you embarrassed. Barry Goldwater is rolling in his grave."

True conservatives are highly aware that there is a strong leftist bias in certain parts of the academy. They have to sit around all day and hear their colleagues make smug remarks implying that any conservative is stupid, and they sit quietly because they know from unfortunate experience that these colleagues are not likely to want to have a serious discussion of the issue, because their minds are made up. There are probably parts of the academy (perhaps economics departments, although most of the economists I have met are also quite liberal) where there may be just as strong an anti-leftist bias, but it is very easy to prove statistically that people in the humanities tend to tilt left in ways that are out of all proportion to the rest of the population. Unintelligent conservatives are able to paint faculty as mostly liberal because faculty are, by any objective measures, mostly liberal. It is not their liberalness that bothers me at all, but the frequent assumption that anyone who questions it is not only stupid but malevolent.

However, getting back to the case against Shelby Thames (on which we can all agree) . . .

Date: Mar 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Salesperson
"Very early on in this battle, I suggested selling our perspective the way that this community will buy it, not necessarily in the way that we are most comfortable selling it. If you ran a company and your top manager was responsible for the chronic turmoil and legitimate complaints of 90% of your employees, would you fire that manager? If you ran a company and your top manager was constantly getting you bad press, would you fire that manager? If you ran a company and your top manager was at the helm when you took a dive in consumer rankings, would you fire that manager? If you ran a company and your top manager was repeatedly getting you sued, would you fire that manager? If you ran a company and your market share was declining, would you fire that manager? If you ran a company and your top manager got you put on notice for non-compliance with a regulatory agency, would you fire that manager? If you ran a company and your top manager was responsible for a decline in product quality, would you fire that manager? If you ran a company and your top manager wasted money through settlements, recruitment, and training resulting from excessive turnover, would you fire that manager? If you ran a company and your top manager lied to you, would you fire that manager? Shelby Thames is just a manager and, obviously, a poor one. It's past time for the IHL to fire him. Isn't that what you would do if he were running your business? "

These are superb ways to frame the issue. Even those of us (like myself) who have absolutely no business sense and absolutely no interest in being businesspersons can understand this kind of logic. It also steals the thunder from unintelligent conservatives (and I would be the first to admit that there are many of these folks around).

Date: Mar 6, 2005

By the way, Salesperson's post would make a wonderful letter to the editor. I plan to copy it and send it to the IHL.

Date: Mar 6, 2005

Salesperson,

I also think that what you've written would make a great letter to the editor.

If you can't put your name on it, for fear of reprisals, could you make it available to someone else?

Robert Campbell

Date: Mar 6, 2005

no pride of authorship, please feel free to quote!

Date: Mar 6, 2005

Just an Opinion is right, the rest of you ????

Date: Mar 6, 2005

RE: Walter Williams column in HA

Date: Mar 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
"OK. I'm dropping politics. Period. I will never again say anything that might possibly offend the sensitivities of a faculty member who cannot connect the way s/he votes with what happens as a result of the actions of the politicians that are elected. I shall henceforth restrict any posts I make to this board to jokes & song lyrics."

Invictus, I love your words. Just stay away from the flash words that cause thinking to cease. Like: conservative, liberal, republican, democrat, Christian, atheist, Moslem, pro____, anti_____. In fact, don't use any labels at all. Just reason out loud and let everyone who can't reason try to find the labels. Won’t that be fun?

Date: Mar 6, 2005

Invictus - continue your posts! They are great.

Date: Mar 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
"If my characterization of the anti-intellectual movement as "conservative" offends you, I suggest you hop right down to the Coke Plant on March 10 & write your check to support Shelby. True conservatives need the hell to wake up & see what is being done in the name of "conservatism." It's enough to make you embarrassed. Barry Goldwater is rolling in his grave. So... Show me one damned liberal that's on the list of sponsors for the Coke Plant putsch."

You would be surprised at the number of thinkers on this board who are appalled and embarrassed about what is happening at USM and are doing everything in their power to turn things around, but whose conservative views would make yours look like those of a John Bircher. Statements like you made here are not smart.

Date: Mar 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
" What he is is a conservative mouthpiece. And he is parroting the party line."

As an academician and a conservative I would like to call your attention to a statement made by Al Sharpton. Rev. Sharpton's statement is clearly applicable to the deplorable situation at the University of Southern Mississippi and it is one to which this conservative subscribes:

---Al Sharpton: ".....Even if my style or my politics are not yours, choose your own. But do not let history recall that you silently...went along into an era that may be irreversible."

Date: Mar 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Right of Center
"Statements like you made here are not smart. "

<MOMENTARY LAPSE>
You are correct. I am angry & frustrated. And I apologize for anything I said that may have caused anyone to reflect for a moment upon the outcomes of how they vote.
</MOMENTARY LAPSE>

As stated above, I shall in the future refrain from posting anything of a semi-serious or serious nature.

Date: Mar 6, 2005

I am a very tolerant person. I will tolerate any type behavior. I will support your right to think thoughts that outrage others. I am tolerant to a fault. However, I will not tolerate someone who disagrees with me politically. If you do not support my political party, or if you support legislation I do not want, I will not tolerate it. Any of you that cannot see what a tolerant and understanding person I am are just narrow-minded bigots. That said, I have tolerated all that I am going to tolerate with intolerant people posting things on this site.

Date: Mar 6, 2005

Invictus, I want to give you a waiver on your earlier statement. Please speculate on where we would be if Ronnie Musgrove had been re-elected. I'm not being sarcastic, I would really like to hear your thoughts.

Date: Mar 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
"If I recall the blurb that ran with Williams' last column, the HA is currently carrying it on a trial basis & asked for input about whether it should become a regular feature. I suggest anyone who takes offense to his assertions about professors should contact the HA & ask that they not subscribe to that particular columnist. The HA is still poking around trying to find a "conservative" columnist to fill the gap left by the other African-American Williams who turned out to be on the take... That said, has it occurred to anyone (besides me) that the attack on college professors has long been a component of the conservative agenda? "

Invictus,

I agree with the sentiment that this string is a big waste of time and energy if the goal is to see SFT gone. However, I cannot resist a counterpunch to your "The HA is still poking around trying to find a 'conservative' columnist to fill the gap left by the other African-American Williams who turned out to be on the take." Would you agree that Armstrong Williams, who got paid for his impropriety, is a lot smarter than the liberal Dan Rather who gave his integrity away?

As one of the other posts notes, Walter Williams is better characterized as a libertarian (or a 19th century liberal) than a conservative. And I would also agree that the last sentence of his editorial was a pretty pathetic statement for an economist to make without some reasoning for his position.

E.B.