Shelby ain't worried - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Mar 7, 2005

RE: Shelby ain't worried

Date: Mar 7, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Amy Freud
" Okay, Shrink, which of the criteria do not apply? Diagnostic Criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following: has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions) requires excessive admiration has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes "

Ah, I love it when an amateur pulls on my big ole DSM! Even though many of these criteria sound like Shelby, he really is subclinical on many. Having seen many PD cases over the years, being a vindictive prick or stomping on those that get in your way is not necessarily PD. For example, if I did a structured clinical interview, Shelby would be subthreshold on 1-3. He is capable of empathy on rare occasions. The need for admiration for him is a lack of humilty often seen in power brokers (like Barbour or Lott), but not convincingly in the pathological range. Barbour and Lott and Tom Delay and Bernie Ebbers have a lot in common with Shelby's style--I'd say they all show some narcissitic traits, and these can be dangerous (there is an interesting book called the Narcissitic Leader, which gives a great glimpse into this leadership style). But if you want to think that he meets the diagnsotic for NPD criteria, so be it. It really doesn't make a difference in the grand scheme of things--if you play with a mean old diamondback rattler and get bit, the only diagnoses to worry about are the ones associated with the venom coursing tthrough the periphery.

Date: Mar 7, 2005

But talk a little more about No. 3, 4 & 5. Yes, Miss Piggy is my heroine, but does that make one a bad person??

(to get serious again, your point is well made that it doesn't matter if he's clinical, subclinical or what. We just have to get rid of him.)

Date: Mar 7, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Let the Shrinks Diagnose
" Amy: Shelby does not have a personality disorder (PD). He has marked narcissistic traits, however. To say that he is PD places the blame for admin scew ups on the presence of a mental disorder, rather than squarely on his shoulders. He holds a grudge and can be very vindictive, and is prone to react to criticism with rage. But he is a very tenacious and an extraordinarily shrewd opponent. That's his style--it's scary and self-focused, but he does not meet the criteria for PD. "

Being a narcissist doesn't absolve you of responsibility for your actions.

I realize that some clinicians make such a claim about "personality disorders," but it simply doesn't follow.

Also, how does it follow that narcissists cannot be tenacious, or shrewd? Presumably the successful narcissists tend to be at least one of the two.

Besides: over the last three years, Thames has exhibited a lot of tenacity--but how much shrewdness? Without powerful friends, wouldn't he have long since become toast?

Robert Campbell

Date: Mar 7, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Robert Campbell
" Being a narcissist doesn't absolve you of responsibility for your actions. I realize that some clinicians make such a claim about "personality disorders," but it simply doesn't follow. Also, how does it follow that narcissists cannot be tenacious, or shrewd? Presumably the successful narcissists tend to be at least one of the two. Besides: over the last three years, Thames has exhibited a lot of tenacity--but how much shrewdness? Without powerful friends, wouldn't he have long since become toast? Robert Campbell"

R-

You are an experimental psychologist, correct? The issue raised isn't whether Shelby is a narcissist (which he is) but whether he meets DSM-IV-TR criteria for NPD (which he does not). I never said a PD absolves him of his responibility, but in the case of Amy Freud, the notion of placing someone in a discrete taxon based on the DSM was used by her to make attributions for his behavior (Shelby is a member of the taxon, ergo he is expected to behave in this way). As you know, people use categorization to explain and predict behavior--in this case, it is sort of a specious debate about whether or not he meets diagnostic criteria. A better predictor for Shelby is actuarial rather than categorical-past specific behaviors predicting future behaviors without resorting to the diagnostic labeling--which is of limited relaibility and has crappy validity anyway. With respect to legalistic issues regarding responsibilty in the criminal arena, personality disorders in and of themselves generally do not mitigate responsibilty, but some courts have ruled otherwise.

With respect to shrewdness, it depends on how broadly or narrowly you define "intelligences." Shelby is extraordinary shrewd in many ways--he is not a blithering idiot who has prospered due to the kindness of strangers--but he does know how to exploit these frienships (hence the narcissistic trait). He is not shrewd in the sense of having wisdom about people and their needs and aspirations and desires. He tends toward the concrete rather than creative. He rewards and values loyality, even in the face of conflicting evidence. So, he has many deficits. But underestimating him is a fool's game.

Date: Mar 8, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Let the Shrinks Diagnose
"
Amy:
Shelby does not have a personality disorder (PD). He has marked narcissistic traits, however. To say that he is PD places the blame for admin scew ups on the presence of a mental disorder, rather than squarely on his shoulders. He holds a grudge and can be very vindictive, and is prone to react to criticism with rage. But he is a very tenacious and an extraordinarily shrewd opponent. That's his style--it's scary and self-focused, but he does not meet the criteria for PD. "

You're right, I have no capacity to diagnose. But maybe I can make a suggestion? Your description sounds more like SFT is possessed. Anthopologists know all about this, and what we might need is a good shaman to exorcise the dome.

Amy Young

Date: Mar 8, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Freud
"He is possessed, not by the supernatural, but by cultural influences (of interest to anthropologists such as you) that are measurable and characteristic of the locals--hard core Bible Belt values and the 2005 Republican Party. His actions are all very consistent with those of Haley Barbour and his ilk. So, unless you can get a group rate on exorcisms, another intervention is warranted."

Again, please, let's not drift into politics. This isn't about right and left, but about right and wrong.

Date: Mar 8, 2005

Whoa...oh...Gnomes just want to have fun...Whoa...oh...Gnomes just want to have fun

Date: Mar 12, 2005

Kicking for those that want to read "Threats of Violence." (sorry - I don't know how to hot link this.)

Date: Mar 12, 2005

So Jameela didn't even say what was attributed to her. Mr. Mixon does indeed owe her a HUGE and PUBLIC apology.

Date: Mar 12, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Dr Manners
" Again, please, let's not drift into politics. This isn't about right and left, but about right and wrong."

Ah, Ms. Manners. So very polite but naive. This is all about politics, and all politics is local. It's not about left versus right, though, because just about everyone with any power in this part of the country (except in small pockets), Republicrat or Democan, is on the conservative side. But political connections and consistency with local values play an enormous role in who attains and retains power. This isn't unusual--powerful anthroplogical, sociological and psychological principles are in play. Like all sweeping statements, there are exceptions of course, but the current USM President is an examplar of how local politics (and being in the in-group) can lead to a powerful public appointment. Being aware of the political mileu should not be brushed aside as useless (but I agree that moral and ethical issues are also strongly in play)--awareness of these pressures is necessary to understanding the challenges facing the next presidential search committee.

Date: Mar 12, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Freud
"Ah, Ms. Manners. So very polite but naive. This is all about politics, and all politics is local. It's not about left versus right, though, because just about everyone with any power in this part of the country (except in small pockets), Republicrat or Democan, is on the conservative side. But political connections and consistency with local values play an enormous role in who attains and retains power. This isn't unusual--powerful anthroplogical, sociological and psychological principles are in play. Like all sweeping statements, there are exceptions of course, but the current USM President is an examplar of how local politics (and being in the in-group) can lead to a powerful public appointment. Being aware of the political mileu should not be brushed aside as useless (but I agree that moral and ethical issues are also strongly in play)--awareness of these pressures is necessary to understanding the challenges facing the next presidential search committee."

I think we can all agree that there are probably many (maybe most) people who are in positions of power who are more interested in power and its uses than than in the ideology. They tend to view ideology as a tool. Many of these folks, like the best actors, can learn to sincerely play their "role" if there is a timely coherance of ideology and power . . . . it is usually pretty interesting to watch how "sincerely" they shift ground as the dominant ideology begins to lose ground and wear thin. . .

Freud is right, however. You certainly can't discount the effect of culture on those who seek and gain power -- in the sense that the cultural values and conventions that shape the character of such an individual and even become the language platform from which that individual constructs a rhetoric of power.

Date: Mar 12, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: stephen judd
" I think we can all agree that there are probably many (maybe most) people who are in positions of power who are more interested in power and its uses than than in the ideology. They tend to view ideology as a tool. Many of these folks, like the best actors, can learn to sincerely play their "role" if there is a timely coherance of ideology and power . . . . it is usually pretty interesting to watch how "sincerely" they shift ground as the dominant ideology begins to lose ground and wear thin. . . Freud is right, however. You certainly can't discount the effect of culture on those who seek and gain power -- in the sense that the cultural values and conventions that shape the character of such an individual and even become the language platform from which that individual constructs a rhetoric of power. "

Hey, this stuff is great. I'm learning a lot rfrom eading these discussions. What are the chances of getting some credit (1 or 2 sem.hrs) in a social science or humanity for reading and participating on this board? You guys just created an "On-line, executive humanities program".

Date: Mar 12, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Student
"Hey, this stuff is great. I'm learning a lot rfrom eading these discussions. What are the chances of getting some credit (1 or 2 sem.hrs) in a social science or humanity for reading and participating on this board? You guys just created an "On-line, executive humanities program". "

Student:

We have such FUN and EXCITING exchanges REAL TIME, that are available to you AT NO EXTRA COST TO YOU! It's NEW AND IMPROVED, and it's called CLASS, and it's available RIGHT NOW! It's guaranteed to ENHANCE THAT SPECIAL MOMENT called learning. BUT WAIT! Order now, and you can double your excitment by attending two classes! BUT WAIT! Register for FOUR classes, and we'll add ONE MORE to your order at NO EXTRA CHARGE! That's right! FIVE for the price of FOUR! And if you ATTEND CLASS regularly, we will wave the $6.95 SHIPPING AND HANDLING FEE! DON'T DELAY! OPERATORS ARE STANDING BY RIGHT NOW TO TAKE YOUR ORDER!

Date: Mar 12, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Student
"Hey, this stuff is great. I'm learning a lot rfrom eading these discussions. What are the chances of getting some credit (1 or 2 sem.hrs) in a social science or humanity for reading and participating on this board? You guys just created an "On-line, executive humanities program". "

Hey, dude, as soon as the folks at B.O.G.U.S. learn of your interest, not only will you get credit, you'll get a diploma. And it's worth every cent you'll pay for it.

Date: Mar 12, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: LVN
"
So Jameela didn't even say what was attributed to her. Mr. Mixon does indeed owe her a HUGE and PUBLIC apology. "

Which comes as no surprise to any of us. Indeed it appears to have been "Tiger by the tale" and "Cossack" who made the remarks referenced, and even these were taken out of context. But, it ain't about truth...it's about sound bites. Hope the sound bites Big Bob Mixon right on the rear bumper.

Date: Mar 12, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Freud
" Student: We have such FUN and EXCITING exchanges REAL TIME, that are available to you AT NO EXTRA COST TO YOU! It's NEW AND IMPROVED, and it's called CLASS, and it's available RIGHT NOW! It's guaranteed to ENHANCE THAT SPECIAL MOMENT called learning. BUT WAIT! Order now, and you can double your excitment by attending two classes! BUT WAIT! Register for FOUR classes, and we'll add ONE MORE to your order at NO EXTRA CHARGE! That's right! FIVE for the price of FOUR! And if you ATTEND CLASS regularly, we will wave the $6.95 SHIPPING AND HANDLING FEE! DON'T DELAY! OPERATORS ARE STANDING BY RIGHT NOW TO TAKE YOUR ORDER! "

We'll even include a SNACK with your paid tuition! First, you have to fill out our on-line questionnaire, however. Do you have what it takes to get a PHD from an on-line university with a .... football team? Don't worry, the program is headed up by someone who will remove any faculty members from your dissertation committee who try to ensure that you actually earn your degree.

Date: Mar 12, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Soon to be another Longhorn Eagle
" ...Hope the sound bites Big Bob Mixon right on the rear bumper."

Hey there you go again with those threats. This should be an adults only board with all of this violence.

Date: Mar 12, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Emma
"Hey, The jerk just a year ago was basically calling Gary and Frank criminals - he went OUT of his way to publicly humiliate them, he insinuated (NOT - he said) that they had broken the law, he called out for full disclosure (since he knew the legal system within the IHL was fixed), and he made sure his closest assistants and family sat in the front row of that April hearing. FIRE SHELBY can be credited for changing the judicial order - it was originially going to be the law firm that represents Shelby and his shady family/friends - but that was basically changed. Now we have the Coca Cola meeting. Right when Spring Break is about to happen. Timing is everything. Let's never fall into the pattern that they want us to fall into. No Quarter - no quarter until we have our university returned to us."

isn't that called "libel??"

Date: Mar 12, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Bad Ad-itude
"... First, you have to fill out our on-line questionnaire, however. Do you have what it takes to get a PHD from an on-line university with a .... football team? .... "

I have a computer and a poster on the wall with my ABCs in both capital and lower case. Is that enough?

Just wait now, my Dad says you are a scam. He said we can just ride by Mississippi Southern with the windows down and get my college degree. It should be easy 'cause the pickup aint got no winders anyway.

Date: Mar 12, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Student
" I have a computer and a poster on the wall with my ABCs in both capital and lower case. Is that enough? Just wait now, my Dad says you are a scam. He said we can just ride by Mississippi Southern with the windows down and get my college degree. It should be easy 'cause the pickup aint got no winders anyway. "

Student,

I admire your value shopping ethic. You are right, just drive by. My job is to form diplomas in the shape of airplanes and throw them at passing cars. I have a PhD in aerospace engineering from a non-Mississippi school. Therefore, be assured with all areodynamic precision, a diploma will land prefectly in your pickup. Enjoy the status and opportunity this degree affords you. In other words, I hope to see you at the Home Depot checkout, further developing our economy. There are many houses for sale, you might look into buying one. They are building new apartments for all our new virtual students. Everything must go. P.S. The drive by spot is JGH, the biz faculty will be busy teaching made-up classes around the clock, but rest assured I will keep flinging diplomas out into passing vehicles in the street...with all the new names, I think it should be called Diploma Mill Blvd. Thanks and don't forget to join the nearly non-existent alumni assoc. There are no benefits associated with this, it is a front only because any real university has one.

Faculty Diploma Maker and Shaper

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