USM Plane - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Feb 19, 2005

RE: USM Plane

Date: Feb 19, 2005

scm--By no stretch of the imagination I am new to this board or its predecessor. I have watched you flip-flop on issue after issue, and this latest "change of heart" is no exception. Why do you continue to defend the indefensible? If you're presenting a devil's advocate position, then fine. However, many of your recent posts smack of Thamesian logic.

For an academic, there is no defensible reason that Thames would put a plane as a higher priority than our academic needs except that this whole thing is ego driven or money driven or both. In any event, it is an inexcusable waste of resources. Athletic recruiters can drive cars or fly commercial. Athletics should be secondary, given that it provides a very small (if any) infusion of cash into our university system. Again, can you refute my assertion that it is just an opportunity to show State and Ole Miss that were "all grown up?"

As was pointed out earlier, a multi-million-dollar gift was "redirected" to become the recreation center because the rec center was considered a higher priority than a new business building. Why, then, can we not redirect this "gift" (through convincing donors to back off their rigid demands) to its higher and better use? Could it be because we want our boys to get a sweet tax write-off and/or use of a plane/pilot that will eventually become "free" to them? Perhaps we just want to be able to fly to our vacation spot without having to interact with the great unwashed.

Date: Feb 19, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"
Sure there's a difference between access and buying a plane (or a share). corporations do this all of the time. . . .

We had a plan here 15 years ago when the library holdings were as miserable as they are now. "

The second sentence more or less confirms what I've long suspected about the cheese man. And the characterization of our library as it was fifteen years ago is patently untrue.

Date: Feb 19, 2005

Bottom line: Shelby, Dana, Clay, and Scott like the elitism of having their own plane to boost their own misbegotten egos. Flying privately is so much more perfectly great. Makes them seem better than those that they continue to step upon.

They are the haves, and we are the have nots. Plain and simple - keep us grounded, let them fly above us.

Date: Feb 19, 2005

Milo Minderbinder’s planes flew in from everywhere, the pursuit planes, the bombers, and cargo ships streaming into Colonel Cathcart’s field with pilots at the controls who would do what they were told. The planes were decorated with flamboyant squadron emblems illustrating such laudable ideals as Courage, Might, Justice, Truth, liberty, Love, Honor and Patriotism that were painted out at once by Milo’s mechanics with a double coat of flat white and replaced in garish purple with the stenciled name M & M Enterprises, Fine Fruits and Produce. The “M & M” in M & M Enterprises” stood for Milo & Minderbinder, and the & was inserted, Milo revealed candidly to nullify any impression that the syndicate was a one-man operation. . . .Milo supervised the whole expanding operation himself. Everybody but Yossarian thought Miles was a jerk, first for volunteering for the job of mess officer and next for taking it so seriously. Yossarian also thought that Milo was a jerk, but he also knew that Milo was a genius.

From Joseph Heller’s Catch-22

Date: Feb 19, 2005

The problem with your statement about major big-time athletice programs is that major big-time athletics programs don't have to go begging their home communities for bond issues. If they have the cash, they do it. If not, they get it together and then do it. You don't see the University of Florida begging Gainesville residents to vote for a bond issue to expand Ben Hill Griffin Stadium, or FSU begging Tallahassee for money. Those types of programs can sell every ticket they can print, and USM can't even sell out what it has for a game like Nebraska or Cal.

The plane is not a red herring, as you called it. The plane is a boil on the a$$ of the university and a symptom of the disease that is eating us alive from the inside out.

Date: Feb 19, 2005

perspective--a flip flopper! a "change of heart!" i haven't embraced thames by what i've said. i may be a devil's advocate sometimes, but i have a clear position with respect to the thames administration. and if you're a long board participant you know it. i also believe that sometimes people get wound up about peripheral issues--one of which i consider to be "the plane." as i've said repeatedly i practice what i assume we teach our students--critical thinking--and i weary of hypocrisy. people saying one thing publically and doing other things privately.

as to the relationship between athletics and academics, it is a tension that exists here and at all universities. been here since i came pre-1980. i don't need to address it. it won't go away.

you ask me to refute your assertion. i don't need to. assertions need proof. i'll take your assertion seriously when you can provide evidence for it. see, this is the real stinky cheese man. a major gift redirected--you believe that based on something posted on this board?! give me something real. and since when did it become "fact" that the thames boys are the donors? the only proof i heard was someone who was in the dome. i was there as well that day. didn't hear it. make me correct? don't think so. review the statements on the thread that establish certain "facts" before you ask me to refute them.

invictus--i need some of your pills.

Date: Feb 19, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Perspective, Please
"The plane is a boil on the a$$ of the university"

Mr. Wonderful! Take note. We have a relatively new poster here.

Date: Feb 19, 2005

mr. wizard --what have you suspected about me? the library was not good 15 years ago, and it isn't good now. has it gotten better, yes! kept up with the times, no!

perspective--yes, big time athletic programs don't have to have bond issues. so what? we aren't one although we think we are. link this to the plane. i've been here so long i've heard faculty want us to move to division I-AA, II, III, and just give up athletics altogether. those dogs didn't hunt then and won't now.

focus on the issues that matter and not those that are good targets but peripheral.

Date: Feb 19, 2005

cheese--

Ask Jim Payne what he gave the money for originally. Then ask him why he changed the designation for his gift. I have done this and heard the answer with my own ears from his mouth. You don't know half as much as you think, but I'd expect no less, given the department in which your office is located.

Date: Feb 19, 2005

perspective--take your best shot. my department? good. is that the best you can offer for an argument? i don't think you even know it.

Date: Feb 19, 2005

perspective--remember one other thing, payne's money, if diverted at all, was diverted a long time ago. how long has the payne center been open?

Date: Feb 19, 2005

Has Dana offered you a seat on the plane yet, or will it be forthcoming, given that you keep flacking for her daddy?

I know who you are. My best shot would knock your punk a** out of the power-induced dream you are currently in.

Date: Feb 19, 2005

perspective--i've taken better on this discussion board. as i've said a number of times on this board, i have a better than usual reason to dislike the thames administration. sorry if you don't believe it. i take as good as i dish. if you think you know where my office is, come by for a talk.

Date: Feb 19, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Perspective, Please
"Has Dana offered you a seat on the plane yet, or will it be forthcoming, given that you keep flacking for her daddy? I know who you are. My best shot would knock your punk a** out of the power-induced dream you are currently in."

once again a thread that makes me thing of Bill the Cat - "ACK" is on my mind

Date: Feb 19, 2005

agreed

Date: Feb 19, 2005

I'll stop by to see you...

Date: Feb 19, 2005

good!

Date: Feb 20, 2005

USM is a public university, not a corporation. What bearing does corporate practice have on us? Unless, perhaps, you buy into the "bidness" model for the university? What I have long suspected is that you view yourself as "the voice of reason" and frequently seek to diminish the legitimate concerns of your colleagues. In so doing, you act as an apologist for Thames.

When I arrived at this university I was pleasantly surprised by the library's holdings in my discipline. Now the section of the library devoted to my subject resembles a graveyard: Journal of Whatever, 1952-1998, Journal of Something Else, 1971-2002. . . Unless your department has been spared and your selection of journals in 2005 closely resembles that of 1990 and your collection of books and monographs have kept pace, I cannot fathom your assessment of the library as it is today versus what it was like 15 years ago. Or perhaps you, like Thames, have little use for the facility.

Date: Feb 20, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Mr. Wizard
"USM is a public university, not a corporation. What bearing does corporate practice have on us? Unless, perhaps, you buy into the "bidness" model for the university? What I have long suspected is that you view yourself as "the voice of reason" and frequently seek to diminish the legitimate concerns of your colleagues. In so doing, you act as an apologist for Thames. When I arrived at this university I was pleasantly surprised by the library's holdings in my discipline. Now the section of the library devoted to my subject resembles a graveyard: Journal of Whatever, 1952-1998, Journal of Something Else, 1971-2002. . . Unless your department has been spared and your selection of journals in 2005 closely resembles that of 1990 and your collection of books and monographs have kept pace, I cannot fathom your assessment of the library as it is today versus what it was like 15 years ago. Or perhaps you, like Thames, have little use for the facility. "

Well put.

Date: Feb 20, 2005

mr. wizard--an apologist for thames? far from it. shouldn't have been made president and shouldn't be renewed. simple enough. i remember the complaints on this board about starbucks in the library--oh it was a bad decision, etc. talked to the head librarian, has worked out well. and by the way, they have a suchi bar in the library at olel miss. people have short memories at USM. i try to remind them of history. sorry if it upsets people.

Date: Feb 20, 2005

folks--let's remember where this started--the plane. that's where i responded. start another thread if you want my thoughts about the library or the relationship of certain budgetary issues and the library. (and i don't know why one of you would care about my opinion)

Date: Feb 20, 2005

Stinky Cheese Man has taken some (IMHO unwarranted) "shots" on this thread for his comments on the USM Library. Well, I agree that it's gone downhill for the past 15 years -- when I first arrived, the library's holdings were "respectable" for a state school, but you still needed to use Inter-Library Loan quite a lot. Around 1990, the budget started forcing departments to decide whether to renew journals OR to buy newly-published books -- NOT a good situation, and the start of the decline.

For the past 8-9 years, since departments had to claim "ownership" of specific journals (and financial responsibility, based on their share of their college's "Library allocation"), we have had to decide which journals we HAD to have, and which ones we "couldn't afford." This process has included terminating subscriptions to really vital journals, but with "level funding" we didn't have the "library allocation" to afford -- like many published by Elsevier and Gordon & Breach, to name two "for-profit" publishers.

Short answer -- the library WAS 'substandard' 15 years ago, and it's gotten to be an embarassment. No reflection on the library staff, but more on "administrative priorities" that have created the decline.

Just my opinion here.

Date: Feb 20, 2005

Folks seem more irritable now after the showdown that did not happen in Jackson. The differences of opinion on the plane that have been presented by SCM and his detractors are both quite reasonable, but at different points in time and different circumstances. SCM is correct that having a university plane is not unusual. Indeed, if things were going well at USM it would not even make it to the message board except as an issue of interest. However, in the current environment, the plane is bad decision. Moreover, to do so in a way that is not transparent is the kiss of death in the current environment. It is the classic "fiddling while Rome burned" situation. The university is on probation, and realistically is headed for the crapper in more ways than we even know. So while we play at SACS accreditation ("we're gonna fix it") talented faculty is leaving in droves with many of us scrambling to join them, and state funding is declining, SFT buys us a plane. Unless there is a line on SACS accreditation the says, "Put mark here if university has a plane and you get extra points", it is a stupid move. It vividly reinforces how dense SFT is. He is remarkable in that he receives so little of the information that his environment presents. There are situations where some people are uniquely suited for the job, i.e., Churchill, but I cannot think of a situation for which SFT is suited.

Date: Feb 20, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Cossack
". . .There are situations where some people are uniquely suited for the job, i.e., Churchill, but I cannot think of a situation for which SFT is suited."

Percussioninst for the Dance Band on the Titanic

Date: Feb 20, 2005

Well put, Cossack.

When I read statements like "If USM wants to be 'grown up,' then USM needs to start acting like a 'grown-up,'" I expect the verbage that follows to outline our need for fiscal responsibility, sound decision-making, and, as you so eloquently stated, transparency. What I'm getting here from the pro-plane advocate(s) is that since "grown-up" universities have planes, USM needs a plane, even if it's a back-room deal with friends or family of the man who is making the decision. It is at this juncture that I will state that "grown-up" universities do not get themselves on SACS probation. "Grown-up" universities have quality library facilities and resources for student and faculty use. "Grown-up" universities have values systems that place the long-run health of the institution ahead of the short-run resume' filling activities that result in getting rich quickly through better kickbacks on your kickbacks.

USM needs to "grow up," but USM needs to grow in a direction that makes sense within the mission of the university, the environment in which the university is located, and the competition present to which the university will be compared and/or ruled (governed) by the IHL.

Date: Feb 20, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Cossack
"It vividly reinforces how dense SFT is."

Or how incredibly crafty he is.

The SACS probation issue was disturbing a lot of people, including athletic boosters who ordinarily don't pay a lot of attention to the academic side of the house. The plane becomes an important thing to that particular faction & they are less prone to be "down" on the administration for the way it's sacked the academic reputation of the university

SCM is right -- if USM were doing well, the plane would hardly be a blip on the faculty radar, something barely worth a "well how about that?" kind of comment. But USM isn't doing well right now on several fronts, so the plane becomes a symbol of everything that's wrong.

Date: Feb 20, 2005

Sorry. I meant to say "Cossack is right" in the previous post.

I apologize profusely to both stinky cheese man & Cossack.

on my face, as usual. (I'm getting used to it. Pass the bacon, please.)

Date: Feb 22, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Emma
"Bottom line: Shelby, Dana, Clay, and Scott like the elitism of having their own plane to boost their own misbegotten egos. Flying privately is so much more perfectly great. Makes them seem better than those that they continue to step upon. They are the haves, and we are the have nots. "

You've gotta admit Emma, it's pretty damn handy to have a plane gassed up with a USM pilot on standby any time you get a wild hair and want to go hunting with your IHL cronies, sky-diving with the Dvoraks, or drop in on the Klumb estate for his famous weekend Gatsby-style parties. That's the way Donald Trump and other moguls travel, if I'm not mistaken.

Date: Feb 22, 2005

I must apologize to those of you on this board who take our mission seriously. Our mission is to get the IHL Board to listen to our cause and to rid this University of Thames. I did not know that my input of information about the palne would be so , so?? heck I don't know.

It seems this info has only left us at back bitting one another. it has also left us to look like fools with some of the mistatements made and the accusations made. I am a firm beleiver that if we want the IHL to listen then we cannot continue the satire or the misinformed comments.

Again, if we are to win then keep a focus on the issue "Thames."

I for one cannnot single handly lead a fight to rid ourselves of the dwarf but, I can leave and not participate in the immature nature things have escalated too.

Amy some help from you would be great!

This message is not focused to one individual. I merely raise due to the comments of one of my confidences in the Board office who has conveyed to me this very issue.

After all this hard work folks continue to minimize our positions over childishness. We all compalin about this situation and how Thames is bad for us but yet we let this crap continue and we allow ourseleves to sit in sorrow just like the boy who cried wolf!