Better Copy of Doty's Response - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Feb 9, 2005

RE: Better Copy of Doty's Response

Date: Feb 9, 2005

I think he was just NOT giving them a reason to fire him immediately for insubordination. He was being a good subordinate...pointing out problems to his superiors, but then saying that, in the end, he will follow their instructions.

Date: Feb 9, 2005

When I first read that letter from Doty to Grimes, I was reminded of a line from the movie A Few Good Men: Jack Nicholson said "You've done ______ with the wrong marine." Me thinks the USM higher administration may have done just that!

Date: Feb 9, 2005

Oops,

Great analogy.

Date: Feb 9, 2005

I seem to recall that Doty was hired by Thames.

It's possible that Doty has recognized a sea change and has decided which "side" he wants to be on. If not the side of the angels, at least the side of optimum career development.

He may not be an angel, but -- at the very least -- he may have realized that SFT's problems go deeper than a mere lack of tact. Cut the losses. Defend academic freedom, basic research and the American Way.

Date: Feb 9, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Stranger Than Fiction
"Reporter, You did not include the entire component of the letter dealing with the Coast MBA. The concluding "However, I will coninue to implement your instructions," is clearly disengenuous. Dean Doty's response would be more convincing, if after resigning as Dean, he made public his distaste for the current situation. I admire and agree with the desired end but not the means. "You can't have your cake and eat it too." "

Interesting take, Stranger. I was thinking just the opposite. I was thinking that Grimes' request to the Dean Doty to do something in violation of SACS guidelines and against the wishes of the faculty was obviously disingenuous, and he was just following the order of SFT. He may have even winked when saying this in person. Or don't you think that is possible?

I guess management in academia is more difficult than in industry. Might doesn't always make right and some stupid people actually stand up for what is right. Of course Doty serves at the pleasure of the Provost, who can fire him at any time, just as in the "business world". Except in academia that may be a medal to put in your resume.

Date: Feb 9, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Reporter
"in academia that may be a medal to put in your resume . . . "

Speaking of academic medals . . . . . Gary Stringer and Frank Glamser deserve the Purple Heart . . . . Dean Doty deseerves the Silver Star.

Date: Feb 9, 2005

Not so fast handing out medals to those whose status is still uncertain. The Last Waltz wants to remind everyone that Doty is the same as he has been from the start -- brash, abrasive, condescending, and bull-headed. When this thing shakes out, we will be able to see if he is a better dean (or just a better faculty member) than he was before his run-in with Thames and friends.

Some interesting points from Doty's letter and last Friday's CoB faculty meeting that The Last Waltz has noted: 1) the implication of gender discrimination in the botched hiring of the Tourism Management Chair, 2) the role of the administration in botching the hiring of the first chair holder in Pharmaceutical Sales (new marketing program), 3) the issue of faculty salaries in the CoB, 4) teaching loads in the CoB, 5) Economic education, 6) CoB research agenda, and 7) MBA program.

All of these boil down to money. Why hire a new chair of Tourism when a faculty member may be promoted with a nominal bump in salary? Why hire a new chair of Pharm. sales and pay big bucks when all this person will do is teach in the CoB? Why are we paying these guys so much anyway, given that they don't bring in grant money or licensing revenues, etc., like other colleges do? If we are going to pay these guys so much, then why are they teaching so little -- can't we get rid of some of them and make the remaining ones work harder? We can't let CoB have Econ Ed, because this will be a huge cash cow, and we need to control those dollars. Same for the MBA program.

Money is the root of all this. Why are SFT & Co. so money-hungry? The Last Waltz has been told that the monetary problems at USM are much more serious than the academic problems. A thorough review of USM's finances may reveal the answer to the question of why the IHL can't remove SFT -- one or more of them (or their puppet masters) may have been draining $$ that cannot be replaced. Doty's flare-up shouldn't distract from the fact that there are things going on with financials that could cause SFT's imprisonment, not just his removal.

Date: Feb 9, 2005

Last Waltz,

If I read your post correctly, are you talking embezzlement?

Date: Feb 9, 2005

I think what TLW is talking about (albeit cryptically) is kickbacks and bribes.

Date: Feb 9, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Dark Side of the Moon
"I think what TLW is talking about (albeit cryptically) is kickbacks and bribes."

OH! Just kickbacks and bribes? Whew...as long as it isn't embezzlement. Kickbacks and bribes are the current trend in government. Does Halliburton own a piece of the dome?

Date: Feb 9, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Relieved
"Does Halliburton own a piece of the dome?"

Surely you've seen the famous Halliburton blimp suspended over the dome while waiting for Nitchampburg field to be cleared for landing.

Date: Feb 9, 2005

At what point do they stop the bleeding? Wish I knew how to change the face and get Waffle Noses Mug.

Count Gustoff, The Gothic Vampire

Date: Feb 9, 2005

Don't give me overmuch about how Glamser and Stringer deserve medals. They stood for academic freedom (after making some critical errors in judgement) and got us all behind them (even with money). They then left for a pretty nice deal, while leaving SFT still afloat. Some of their loudest supporters (Polk) also have jumped ship -- after great protestations about their dedication to the cause. They are all gone to warmer climes, with pretty good deals, while we are left with SFT. Not exactly like they all jumped on a land mine to save us.

Date: Feb 9, 2005

Frank Glamser and Gary Stringer weren't obliged to jump on a land mine to save the rest of the USM faculty.

It wouldn't have done any good if they had.

The Board had no intention of getting rid of Thames in April 2004. It would have slammed G and S to the wall for not taking the settlement, and left Thames in power anyway.

In February 2005, Thames has lost much of his political support because of SACS probation, and maybe the Board can be induced to get rid of him now. Some participants here still wonder exactly what it will take. For most presidents, the announcement of probation in December--after Thames had withheld any indication of trouble with SACS from the Board--would have guaranteed his immediate removal.

So don't go around blaming G and S--or Noel Polk, who for three or four months was openly daring Thames to try to fire him--because they couldn't get Thames fired all by themselves.

Robert Campbell

Date: Feb 9, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Robert Campbell
"Frank Glamser and Gary Stringer weren't obliged to jump on a land mine to save the rest of the USM faculty. It wouldn't have done any good if they had. The Board had no intention of getting rid of Thames in April 2004. It would have slammed G and S to the wall for not taking the settlement, and left Thames in power anyway. In February 2005, Thames has lost much of his political support because of SACS probation, and maybe the Board can be induced to get rid of him now. Some participants here still wonder exactly what it will take. For most presidents, the announcement of probation in December--after Thames had withheld any indication of trouble with SACS from the Board--would have guaranteed his immediate removal. So don't go around blaming G and S--or Noel Polk, who for three or four months was openly daring Thames to try to fire him--because they couldn't get Thames fired all by themselves. Robert Campbell"

Well said (as usual), Robert! I do miss Noel Polk's postings to the board. Has anyone heard anything from him lately? Even if he were posting under a name other than his own (not like him!), I suspect we would all recognize his style!

Date: Feb 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: grunt
"Don't give me overmuch about how Glamser and Stringer deserve medals"

Come to think of it. grunt, G&S deserve a silver star in addition to the purple heart.

Date: Feb 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Robert Campbell
"Frank Glamser and Gary Stringer weren't obliged to jump on a land mine to save the rest of the USM faculty.
It wouldn't have done any good if they had.
The Board had no intention of getting rid of Thames in April 2004. It would have slammed G and S to the wall for not taking the settlement, and left Thames in power anyway.
In February 2005, Thames has lost much of his political support because of SACS probation, and maybe the Board can be induced to get rid of him now. Some participants here still wonder exactly what it will take. For most presidents, the announcement of probation in December--after Thames had withheld any indication of trouble with SACS from the Board--would have guaranteed his immediate removal.
So don't go around blaming G and S--or Noel Polk, who for three or four months was openly daring Thames to try to fire him--because they couldn't get Thames fired all by themselves.
Robert Campbell"

Robert, thanks for your eloquent and apt description of Frank and Gary's immeasurable contribution to the cause (and Noel's, too). All I can do is second everything you said and add:

NO QUARTER!

Date: Feb 10, 2005

"I am also concerned about your repeated statements that we should position the College of Business to compete with ......... University of Phoenix."

There was lots of disturbing content in that letter, but for some reason I found the above sentence to be one of the most troubling. I previously thought posters on this board for joking when they made reference to the University of Phoenix. I couldn't imagine any self-respecting university wanting to turn itself into a University of Pheonix. But now, from the content of this one sentence, it appears that the USM higher administration has visions of competing with the University of Pheonix. If that occurs, I suppose we'll be arranging for pop-ups to appear on computer screens across the country, and we'll place advertisements in slimy places for the world to see. The University of Phoenox as our model? Doesn't this disburb anyone?

Date: Feb 10, 2005

I agree with above. So I guess that the "world class" peer institution USM aspires to be like is William Cary or University of Phoenix?

Date: Feb 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: CW Fan
"I agree with above. So I guess that the "world class" peer institution USM aspires to be like is William Cary or University of Phoenix?"

I have no problem with William Carey, and I'd have no problem with having a degree from there or teaching there. They carry out their mission very well. But the University of Pheonix is a different story entirely. Carey is a legitimate, traditional, small liberal arts college. Carey will undoubtedly become the school of choice around here unless USM's demise is aborted soon. But how embarassing for USM to use Pheonix as a role model.

Date: Feb 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: grunt
"Don't give me overmuch about how Glamser and Stringer deserve medals. They stood for academic freedom (after making some critical errors in judgement) and got us all behind them (even with money). They then left for a pretty nice deal, while leaving SFT still afloat. Some of their loudest supporters (Polk) also have jumped ship -- after great protestations about their dedication to the cause. They are all gone to warmer climes, with pretty good deals, while we are left with SFT. Not exactly like they all jumped on a land mine to save us."

If Glamser and Stringer had not been out in front on this, the faculty would not have had the chance in this fight that it currently has. Hanberry and Dvorak would still be in the Dome, and SFT would be much less vulnerable. I'm sure that they, along with Polk and a whole slew of others, would much rather be at the USM they served so well for so long.

Date: Feb 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Wednesday's Child
" it appears that the USM higher administration has visions of competing with the University of Pheonix. If that occurs, I suppose we'll be arranging for pop-ups to appear on computer screens across the country, and we'll place advertisements in slimy places for the world to see. The University of Phoenox as our model? Doesn't this disburb anyone?
"

Yes, yes, yes. This disturbed/disturbs me a great deal. In fact, the first time I got "in trouble" at USM was when I objected to having on-line teaching crammed down my throat.
It was pretty clear at that point that the administrators in my department had no conception of what good teaching was, or what actually goes on in the classroom which is better than anything that can happen on line. (I imagine some disciplines could be taught well on-line. Mine can't--at least not at any kind of meaningful level.) In fact, after having conversations with the administrators, I was rather astounded that they could call themselves educators. We're not teachers, we're "content providers," and we don't interact with "students," we serve "customers." This makes a mockery of everything I believe in.

Date: Feb 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: The Last Waltz
"Not so fast handing out medals to those whose status is still uncertain. The Last Waltz wants to remind everyone that Doty is the same as he has been from the start -- brash, abrasive, condescending, and bull-headed. "

I've never even met Doty, but it does strike me that certain of his qualities cited above as being negatives are precisely those which may be essential in winning a major league pi$$ing match with Thames/Grimes/Malone, particularly the brash and bull-headed features. If I may offer a military analogy which now seems apt, many of the great generals throughout history have been brash, abrasive, condescending, bull-headed...and victorious. Personally I don't give a rat's patootie if Doty is a class-A jerk, so long as he's on the "right" side, which would appear to be the case here, as evidenced by his letter.

Date: Feb 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Diogenes
"I've never even met Doty, but it does strike me that certain of his qualities cited above as being negatives are precisely those which may be essential in winning a major league pi$$ing match with Thames/Grimes/Malone, particularly the brash and bull-headed features. If I may offer a military analogy which now seems apt, many of the great generals throughout history have been brash, abrasive, condescending, bull-headed...and victorious. Personally I don't give a rat's patootie if Doty is a class-A jerk, so long as he's on the "right" side, which would appear to be the case here, as evidenced by his letter. "

The enemy of my enemy is not always my friend. While I have no problem seeing Thames and Doty duke it out, the fact that they are fighting doesn't make Doty a good guy or worthy of our support.

Date: Feb 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Huh?
"The enemy of my enemy is not always my friend. While I have no problem seeing Thames and Doty duke it out, the fact that they are fighting doesn't make Doty a good guy or worthy of our support."

The academic principles espoused in Doty's letter are sound ones. Doty should be supported. He seems to be one of the few open and responsible games in USM's higher administrative system.

Date: Feb 10, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by: Huh?
"The enemy of my enemy is not always my friend. While I have no problem seeing Thames and Doty duke it out, the fact that they are fighting doesn't make Doty a good guy or worthy of our support.

We need to be supporting principles rather than people in any case. Principles are clear, but people are unpredictable. True, we are all the sum of our decisions, and character takes awhile to build. Thus, we might have a pretty clear understanding of who someone is today, but none of us is so close to sainthood that we can't have started the slide toward damnation, and none of us so utterly reprobate that we might not have already begun the arduous task of building another character.

In fact, many of our difficulties with the community are based in personality politics. Those who have known an administrator through neutral social contacts over decades appear to have made the unconscious--and possibly self-gratifying--conclusion that that person could do no harm in another arena. Au contraire.

I am not suggesting that we don't assess possible motives when people speak, but rather that we not play God. We have neither the requisite knowledge nor the purity. Rather, let us move the question away from personalities back to principles.

NO QUARTER.

Jameela

Date: Feb 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: CW Fan
"I agree with above. So I guess that the "world class" peer institution USM aspires to be like is William Cary or University of Phoenix?"

Nice piece in USA Today about diploma mills (2/9/05) Wyoming is the "home" to many of these institutions. They did fail to mention Mississippi, specifically USM!!

Date: Feb 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Huh?
"The enemy of my enemy is not always my friend. While I have no problem seeing Thames and Doty duke it out, the fact that they are fighting doesn't make Doty a good guy or worthy of our support. "

Huh?,

Hortense and Jameela are right. So let's keep a level head on this matter. Or, at best, let's keep our heads screwed on straight. A quick lession in history might help us here: We did not question Stalin's record on human rights during World War II, because American lives were being saved in the tens of thousands! Doty's critics can have at him, if they so choose, after the war here in Nitchampburg - just like we waited until Hitler was defeated before we focused on the Soviet Union. So let's maintain our focus. This war is about principles, not people.

Date: Feb 10, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Jameela Lares
" We need to be supporting principles rather than people in any case. Principles are clear, but people are unpredictable. I am not suggesting that we don't assess possible motives when people speak, but rather that we not play God. We have neither the requisite knowledge nor the purity. Rather, let us move the question away from personalities back to principles. NO QUARTER. Jameela "

Dr. Lares and Hortense:

Thank you both for more eloquently stating my own (apparently) clumsily worded sentiments concerning Dean Doty. To be clear, I did not suggest that he be awarded a red badge of courage. There are many individuals I find personally offensive but with whom I agree on certain matters of principle. I don't know the man, but was suggesting that Doty, personality issues notwithstanding, may be one of these individuals. I am substantially less interested in his lack of charm and charisma than in his adherence to the academic standards and principles which we hold dear. If Doty is willing to take on Thames and his band of thugs, more power to him and God speed.

Diogenes