Grimes letter to go public... - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Feb 7, 2005

Grimes letter to go public...

Date: Feb 7, 2005

I am curious, who technically has control (ownership) of the letter? Is it Doty or Grimes, or the University? Any one of the above could cough up a copy of the letter. Who owns the original?

Date: Feb 7, 2005

Both sender and receiver have ownership of the letter in question and either or both can do whatever in the heck he wishes with the letter. I believe that there are probably several copies of the letter and the original is somewhere locked up. As Al Gore would say, "a lock box."

Date: Feb 7, 2005

If, in fact, Doty has been relieved of command, why wouldn't he just make the letter public?

Date: Feb 7, 2005

the foia forces have arisen. i think the HA successfully got one on the issue of sweeping department accounts. what did we see from it? i don't remember much. the only other successful one i recall recently was one by the business prof. i'm not sure a call for foia requests do much--haven't so far (if many have been filed).

Date: Feb 7, 2005

I think that there was a FOIA request made of the Business College before, and Doty honored it, and it hacked off the administration. I suspect that he would honor a FOIA request this time also.

Date: Feb 7, 2005

Why wait for an foia request? why not just hand out the letter? What would Doty have to lose?

Date: Feb 7, 2005

There may be a difference in the how the law views handing over the letter to honor a FOIA request and making a public gratiously.

Date: Feb 7, 2005

I'm curious...is it illegal to make public a letter that was addressed to you? What if he gave it to 2 or 3 people, who then made it public?

Date: Feb 7, 2005

How do you think the HA got hold of the SACS letters that were addressed to Thames? There is a report out that the real Deep Throat is about to be revealed in an obituary...coincidence?

Date: Feb 7, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Outside Observer
"is it illegal to make public a letter that was addressed to you? What if he gave it to 2 or 3 people, who then made it public?"

If it was addressed to you, it belongs to you. If you give it to 2 or 3 people, you just made it public. Unless they are dead.

Date: Feb 7, 2005

Harold Doty can choose to reveal the letter if he wants. Grimes, Malone, and Thames will be furious at him if he does. But they are already furious at him. Since he has no intention of doing what they are demanding, he should post copies all over campus. It won't work in their favor.

Even if Doty didn't want to publicize the letter, on what grounds could USM refuse to make it available, under the Public Records Act?

Robert Campbell

Date: Feb 7, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Robert Campbell
"Even if Doty didn't want to publicize the letter, on what grounds could USM refuse to make it available, under the Public Records Act? "

Robert, I gave that question some thought earlier this evening. The only grounds I came up with is that FOIA access might be denied if the document contained some privileged (e.g, "personnel") information. In that case I wonder if only a portion (the non privileged portion) of the document could be released under the FOIA.

Date: Feb 7, 2005

Professor Campbell, it is a certainty that at some point the letter will be made public under the FOIA. The only remaining issue is when. I am of the opinion that the COB dean is more likely to release it sooner than the administration.

Date: Feb 7, 2005

do not enter and Cossack,

If the "personnel" portion of the letter consists of a threat to fire Dean Doty, it would be in his interest to publicize that threat.

If it extends further, to threats to fire the Associate Dean or various professors in the CoB, it would be in their interests to publicize those threats.

For if the threats are kept secret, they will be much easier to carry out.

Only Thames and his immediate crew have any reason, at this point, to want the letter kept private.

Robert Campbell

Date: Feb 7, 2005

SHELBY MIGHT NEED SOME DEPENDS!!

Date: Feb 7, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Robert Campbell
"Harold Doty can choose to reveal the letter if he wants. Grimes, Malone, and Thames will be furious at him if he does. But they are already furious at him. Since he has no intention of doing what they are demanding, he should post copies all over campus. It won't work in their favor. Even if Doty didn't want to publicize the letter, on what grounds could USM refuse to make it available, under the Public Records Act? Robert Campbell"

Doty got the Grimes letter on Thursday through campus mail. His response to Grimes, also sent through campus mail, went out on Friday just before the CoB faculty meeting. He did not read from his letter to Grimes although the phrase "egregious anti-intellectualism" has been surfacing and that has a distinctive Doty ring to it.

Date: Feb 7, 2005

foia requests take time, and money. once filed i think the respondent has 14 days. appeals are possible. the foia strategy is a long standing one on this discussion board and the old fire shelby page. as i said earlier, not clear they have produced much. bottom line--don't get your hopes up.

Date: Feb 8, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"foia requests take time, and money."

If this is the case then there is the whole spirit of FOIA is being abused. All it should take is a simple letter of request, a stamp, and maybe a return receipt postage fee. It certainly shouldn't require the assistance of a lawyer.

Date: Feb 8, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: quick and cheap
" If this is the case then there is the whole spirit of FOIA is being abused. All it should take is a simple letter of request, a stamp, and maybe a return receipt postage fee. It certainly shouldn't require the assistance of a lawyer. "

Maybe not <gasp> a lawyer, but there has to be some process by which a disinterested determination can be made whether the subject information, if disclosed, might adversely affect innocent third parties, compromise safety, reveal proprietary business interests, etc. I don't know who gets to decide what the "whole spirit of FOIA" is, but the original intention was not to turn the entire public world into a fishbowl.

"For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." --Henry Louis Mencken

Date: Feb 8, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: ram
" Maybe not <gasp> a lawyer, but there has to be some process by which a disinterested determination can be made whether the subject information, if disclosed, might adversely affect innocent third parties, compromise safety, reveal proprietary business interests, etc. I don't know who gets to decide what the "whole spirit of FOIA" is, but the original intention was not to turn the entire public world into a fishbowl. "For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." --Henry Louis Mencken"

Although both letters are likely to eventually be revealed, I think there's both truth and wisdom to this post from Ram.

We are all curious about the original letter and the response letter but I think that the most important parts of the Grime letter - "important" meaning related to university wide governance concerns, were revealed to the CoB faculty when Doty read the excerpts. The two passages revealed the previously only rumored strategy of competing with Phoenix and the top-down redirection of scholarly research narrowed to only applied and grant-related research.

If I were the professor on the coast whose classroom had been invaded by KenBot, I would be feeling pretty vindicated.

Date: Feb 8, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Rings true
"Doty got the Grimes letter on Thursday through campus mail. His response to Grimes, also sent through campus mail, went out on Friday just before the CoB faculty meeting."

It's really a pity that Grimes didn't use email to send this communication, because we already know that nobody in the administration is monitoring email any more, right?

Date: Feb 8, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: ram
"I don't know who gets to decide what the "whole spirit of FOIA" is, but the original intention was not to turn the entire public world into a fishbowl."

ram,

But neither was it the FOIA's original intention to turn the public world into Al Capone's tomb. As evidenced by earlier FOIA attempts to obtain appropriate information from USM, it just ain't working on Hardy Street.

Date: Feb 8, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Geraldo
" ram, But neither was it the FOIA's original intention to turn the public world into Al Capone's tomb. As evidenced by earlier FOIA attempts to obtain appropriate information from USM, it just ain't working on Hardy Street. "

Agreed. My point is just that it must take more than "a simple letter of request, a stamp, and maybe a return receipt postage fee."

Date: Feb 8, 2005

As evidenced by earlier FOIA attempts to obtain appropriate information from USM, it just ain't working on Hardy Street.

But it has worked quite well for those with the determination and legal resources to get to the info. For example, one well known COB professor has used his unlimited legal resources to get not only all purchase orders he was interested in, but also faculty emails. He subsequently distributed these over the COB email system with his challenges to those who wrote the emails. Doubt it? Ask any COB faculty.

Date: Feb 8, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: ram
"Agreed. My point is just that it must take more than "a simple letter of request, a stamp, and maybe a return receipt postage fee.""

Actually, under the law, all that is required is a letter and a stamp and the willingness to pay the University for the costs of locating the information. However, I suspect simply following the law is not enough. I suspect as the COB prof discovered, he had to have lawyers, money and the will to make things public. I don't know if HD has a lawyer or money, but he obviously doesn't have the will to make things public.

Date: Feb 8, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Robert Campbell
"Harold Doty can choose to reveal the letter if he wants. Grimes, Malone, and Thames will be furious at him if he does. But they are already furious at him. Since he has no intention of doing what they are demanding, he should post copies all over campus. It won't work in their favor. Even if Doty didn't want to publicize the letter, on what grounds could USM refuse to make it available, under the Public Records Act? Robert Campbell"

If Dean Doty releases the letter he will be fired for insubordination. If he receives an FOI request and releases the information he still may be fired, but the President will be in the position of firing a Dean for complying with the law. This is not unlike the Hanberry situation and the memo last year. If the administration tells him not to release the letters when he has an FOI request, they are violating the law and he will own a part of Southern Miss.

Date: Feb 8, 2005

good point!

Date: Feb 8, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Linda
"If Dean Doty releases the letter he will be fired for insubordination. If he receives an FOI request and releases the information he still may be fired, but the President will be in the position of firing a Dean for complying with the law. This is not unlike the Hanberry situation and the memo last year. If the administration tells him not to release the letters when he has an FOI request, they are violating the law and he will own a part of Southern Miss. "

Doty talked a lot at the meeting but he never said he was told not to release HIS letter. Also, he never said that he had been told to withhold the Grimes' letter. He read portions of the letter from Grimes. If he can read portions in public, he can circulate the letter.

Be careful that because we are in a fight with SFT and Grimes that we're not backing someone just like him. Except for the people whom he has rewarded, few faculty in the COB speak well of him.

Remember, he was willing to create the furor, but withholds the information.

Date: Feb 8, 2005

I am not knowledgable in this area, but it seems to me that FOIA requests should be forwarded to the university attorney would serve as the university's authority in determining the appropriateness of the request. The university attorney might consult with others (e.g., the attorney general's office) if necessary, but I wouldn't think any individual faculty member (or, for that matter, any dean) would take it upon himself to respond to a FOIA request. That's just plain old common sense as far as I'm concerned, but I might be wrong.