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USM Forum -- Message Board -> AAUP-USM MESSAGE BOARD -> Don't let the IHL see this news!
Post Info TOPIC: Don't let the IHL see this news!
Gnome Watcher

Date:
Don't let the IHL see this news!
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quote:
Originally posted by: Robert Campbell
"stephen,
There's been some discussion of David Horowitz's "Academic Bill of Rights" on Liberty and Power.  And more on another History News Network blog, Cliopatria.
The libertarians at L and P disagree all the time with the (mostly) left-liberals at Cliopatria, and ideological bias in academia is frankly discussed in both places, but you won't find fans of Horowitz's proposed legislation in either.
Horowitz is a wowser, to revive a word that H. L. Mencken once used.  He's looking to ride to power on a wave of suppressive zeal.
I do agree with Gnome Watcher that the kind of classroom conduct he described should be publicly exposed.  That's usually the most effective way to deal with it.  Suppressive measures aren't; suggesting that only the wowsers care to document it isn't either.
USM doesn't seem to be the kind of place where indoctrination from the left would be an issue.  It sure isn't at Clemson.  (We do have a few pockets of Religious Right indoctrination...) At some other institutions it's a whole different story.
Robert Campbell"


I couldn't agree more, Robert! I do not think that there is a need for legislation in this case. However, I will have to say that I can understand why some people may think that it is a good idea. Indoctrination of any kind should not be tolerated and, in today's litigation and legislation crazy society, many people automatically come up with the statement, "There should be a law against that."

I agree that students and faculty have many more avenues of recourse in the event that a situation such as I described should occur. So why is there a percieved problem? Because this type of behavior has occured for many, many years and, up until recently (the last 10-15 years or so) there has been no method of recourse.

I am reminded of a scene in the movie "The Running Man" in which a young Dustin Hoffman plays a graduate student in the process of beginning his graduate thesis. Hoffman's thesis professor allows him to pick the subject, but then forces him to include a main theme that Hoffman does not really want to. Hoffman has no choice but to either accept or fail the course.

Granted, this is merely a scene from a movie, but it represents what many people think about the goings on at college campuses. It represents indoctrination, not advising or mentoring, and it is resented whenever it happens in real life. I am hearing and reading about more and more of these cases happening around the country. I agree that it is occuring in isolated spots and that it is a small minority of professors who engage in this behavior. The problem is, the public does not percieve that. They are only hearing about the bad events, as the media is wont to report, and not hearing enough about the good one's.

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The American Way

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quote:
Originally posted by: Freedom of choice - for those who think like us
"Give them freedom of choice as long as the choice they make is your choice? If their choice is not your choice, give them a label. "


You have just described "the American Way," haven't you? When we apply it to international affairs, we say "if your choice is not our choice, we will bomb you into the Stone Age."

I, for one, welcome our new fascist overlords.

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My way or the highway

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quote: "
Originally posted by: The American Way
"You have just described "the American Way," haven't you?"
I believe that what was described is the ultra-liberal way.

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Go 'dores

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quote:
Originally posted by: LVN
"I am opposed to any such legislation, but I have been on the receiving end of some pretty strong anti-Christian, anti-conservative prejudice when I was at Vanderbilt. I was cautioned strongly by one professor to "whatever you do don't let anybody hear you say that!" when I commented that I did not take a feminist stance in my particular area of interest. with."


I have two degrees from Vanderbilt, and I don't know how one can make the accustation that the school is riven with "some pretty strong anti-Christian, anti-conservative prejudice." Vandy's faculty has long tradition of eminent conservatives who take an active role in mentoring students. Did you take no classes in history, philosophy, English, economics? Some of my classmates have gone on to important careers as conservative scholars. The spirit of the Agrarians is still alive.

Anti-Christian bias? Did you ever step foot in the Divinity school, ten yards from the library? When you were "at" Vanderbilt, were you enrolled as a student? Or were you just "there". Maybe you spent too much time at the frat house. Perhaps you had a teacher or two you didn't like--welcome to the world of different ideas, but if you truly were possessed of a conservative temperament, you would have found the school to have a rich and active tradition. And you would have found fellow conservatives.

Nashville is a deeply religious town, formerly home to the Methodist Episcopal Church South, home to the Southern Baptist Sunday School Board, National Baptists Publishing board and at least four other religious universities. The Frist family are some of the schools biggest benefactors--hardly liberals.

This is a long response, and the tone is a bit more enthusiastic than I intended, but it is just so wrong-headed, and shows a real ignorance of the school and its rich intellectual traditions.

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I choose YOU

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Go 'dores, you can be on my debating team anytime. Very well put.

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CSEI

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Sat on way too many grad committees where the mutually ill informed KazelskI tried to shape grad students' research interests to fit their own antiquated interests. Sad, pathetically sad and very true.

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truth4usm/AH

Date:
Permalink Closed

quote:
Originally posted by: Go 'dores
" I have two degrees from Vanderbilt, and I don't know how one can make the accustation that the school is riven with "some pretty strong anti-Christian, anti-conservative prejudice." Vandy's faculty has long tradition of eminent conservatives who take an active role in mentoring students. Did you take no classes in history, philosophy, English, economics? Some of my classmates have gone on to important careers as conservative scholars. The spirit of the Agrarians is still alive. Anti-Christian bias? Did you ever step foot in the Divinity school, ten yards from the library? When you were "at" Vanderbilt, were you enrolled as a student? Or were you just "there". Maybe you spent too much time at the frat house. Perhaps you had a teacher or two you didn't like--welcome to the world of different ideas, but if you truly were possessed of a conservative temperament, you would have found the school to have a rich and active tradition. And you would have found fellow conservatives. Nashville is a deeply religious town, formerly home to the Methodist Episcopal Church South, home to the Southern Baptist Sunday School Board, National Baptists Publishing board and at least four other religious universities. The Frist family are some of the schools biggest benefactors--hardly liberals. This is a long response, and the tone is a bit more enthusiastic than I intended, but it is just so wrong-headed, and shows a real ignorance of the school and its rich intellectual traditions. "

GD, I live in Nashville and work at Vanderbilt.  Furthermore, I know LVN.  She was in grad school at Vandy (not sure exactly when).  Anyway, I'll let her answer the part of your message you directed to her (I can't imagine she spent a lot of time in frat houses, but you never know!). 


You're right about Vandy being conservative, but Nashville seems much more liberal to me than, say, Hattiesburg (where I most recently lived).  True, it's a hub for traditional religious presses and home to more than one conservative religious university, but there's also a thriving liberal religious community (one of the UU churches in town has over 500 members, for example).  Also, Vandy's divinity school is nondenominational...one of the few in the country, I believe.


Anyway, the truth is probably somewhere in between.  I'm sure you could find an Anti-Christian professor somewhere at Vandy without looking too hard (esp. in the English dept.).  But, you're right about the overall tone of the school (I mean, we had Condolezza Rice as the commencement speaker this past spring, for goodness sakes!).



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Pomp and Circumstance

Date:
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quote:
Originally posted by: truth4usm/AH
"Vandy . . . . . . we had Condolezza Rice as the commencement speaker this past spring."

truth4usm/AH's comments about Condolezza Rice serving as commencement speaker at Vanderbilt this past spring suggests a set of trivia questions:


1. Condolezza Rice gave the commencement address at which Mississippi institution of higher education in 2003?


2. Bill Clinton gave the commencement address at which Mississippi institution of higher education in 2003?


3. Who gave the commencement address at USM in 2003?



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LVN

Date:
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Don't let the IHL see this new
Permalink Closed

quote:
Originally posted by: Go 'dores
"

I have two degrees from Vanderbilt, and I don't know how one can make the accustation that the school is riven with "some pretty strong anti-Christian, anti-conservative prejudice." Vandy's faculty has long tradition of eminent conservatives who take an active role in mentoring students. Did you take no classes in history, philosophy, English, economics? Some of my classmates have gone on to important careers as conservative scholars. The spirit of the Agrarians is still alive.

Anti-Christian bias? Did you ever step foot in the Divinity school, ten yards from the library? When you were "at" Vanderbilt, were you enrolled as a student? Or were you just "there". Maybe you spent too much time at the frat house. Perhaps you had a teacher or two you didn't like--welcome to the world of different ideas, but if you truly were possessed of a conservative temperament, you would have found the school to have a rich and active tradition. And you would have found fellow conservatives.

Nashville is a deeply religious town, formerly home to the Methodist Episcopal Church South, home to the Southern Baptist Sunday School Board, National Baptists Publishing board and at least four other religious universities. The Frist family are some of the schools biggest benefactors--hardly liberals.

This is a long response, and the tone is a bit more enthusiastic than I intended, but it is just so wrong-headed, and shows a real ignorance of the school and its rich intellectual traditions. "


I did not make any statements about Vanderbilt per se. I related my personal experience in one department at a given point in time. (English, PhD program, 1990-91.) Frat house? I was an over-40 adult woman. I did find friends, and they were not all "conservative" -- interestingly, a group comprising Catholic, Jewish, Evangelical and Anglican students found ourselves drawn together by our mutual belief in, not Christianity, but in simple objective reality, and an objection to a sort of intellectual facism we experienced. (You must remember this was at the peak of popularity of certain literary theories which many of us found objectionable. I can't go into all that theoretical stuff -- I actually don't remember it in enough detail anyway.) The "spirit of the Agrarians" may be alive now, but when I was there, it was despised in the classes I experienced.

As for Nashville and the Frists, that had no bearing at all on my experience and no relevance to my comments whatsoever.

There were outstanding Christian students in my classes, Lydia McGrew for example. Lydia was an intellectual powerhouse, and much more able than I was to meet and surmount the challenges we faced. I was not up to the challenge, and as it turned out, I left after simply running out of money and not making the grades I needed for a fellowship. In any case, I would never have been able to meet the language requirement -- which was changed with no notice after I arrived on campus.

I take it you were an undergraduate at Vandy? Then you were in a different world than I was.


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LVN

Date:
RE: Don't let the IHL see this news!
Permalink Closed

I should add that I was strongly warned not to go to Vanderbilt, and that there was no one there who would have been able to direct my dissertation on C.S. Lewis's magnanimous kings. Because I'd been out of grad school for several years, I didn't know to invesigate some of these issues and I went into the whole experience blindly, and somewhat stupidly. Before this poster beats on me anymore, he/she should also know that it took me ten years to pay back the $$$ for six months of misery, so I've been punished enough.

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Tinctoris

Date:
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quote:
Originally posted by: The Shadow
"The part about "persistently introducing controversial matter" is taken right out of the AAUP red book."


OK, but according to this article in CNN today:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/01/31/students.amendment.ap/index.html

half of high school students think newspapers should have to get approval from the government to print a story and 75% think the government censors the internet. How can you educate them without being accused of being a "card-carrying member" of the dreaded ACLU?

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Angeline

Date:
Permalink Closed

quote:
Originally posted by: LVN
"I should add that I was strongly warned not to go to Vanderbilt, and that there was no one there who would have been able to direct my dissertation on C.S. Lewis's magnanimous kings. Because I'd been out of grad school for several years, I didn't know to invesigate some of these issues and I went into the whole experience blindly, and somewhat stupidly. Before this poster beats on me anymore, he/she should also know that it took me ten years to pay back the $$$ for six months of misery, so I've been punished enough."

LVN: I have often admired your posts and given this added bit of information I won't jump in like I felt like doing when I read your post before this one.  I was surprised to see that you were a PhD student complaining about the theoretical atmosphere of a school or department.  Prospective doctoral students should (must) investigate a program thoroughly before jumping in - it is incumbent upon the student to choose the program that is right for you and has the professors there in the area you intend to study in.  It sounds like you know that now - sorry it happened that way for you and I trust that you moved on to a more appropriate program for you and finished that PhD.


Sincerely,


Angeline



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LVN

Date:
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Tinctoris, this scared me too. Didn't these kids have to memorize the Preamble to the Constitution in the eighth grade?? Did they take Civics in the ninth grade? Didn't they have to take American Govt and American History in high school? This is where the problem is, not at college. No, I take it back, these are things that should be learned at home, but uneducated TV-addicted parents raise the same kind of kids.


I think EVERY freedom-loving person, conservative or liberal, ought to be extremely concerned about this trend.

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LVN

Date:
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quote:
Originally posted by: Angeline
"
LVN: It sounds like you know that now - sorry it happened that way for you and I trust that you moved on to a more appropriate program for you and finished that PhD.
Sincerely,
Angeline"


Thanks, A. Never did finish, had to go back to work, and just recently decided I was past the age when it made sense for me.

I feel like I've monopolized this thread, so I'll stop for now.

P.S., If they ever build a frat house for cute guys in their fifties y'all let me know.

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Generation gap

Date:
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quote:
Originally posted by: Tinctoris
"....... according to this article in CNN today:  half of high school students think newspapers should have to get approval from the government to print a story and 75% think the government censors the internet."
I often wondered what would happen when the children of the 60's grew up and had children of their own. Now I wonder what will happen when the children referred to in the CNN article grow up and have children of their own. Surely there was a sampling error.

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