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Originally posted by: Business One
"The same is taking place at the Jackson County campus with the MBA to meet the "need" there; pushed by KM but CoB going along with it since HD has no choice.  Now the EMBA  "expands" to GP from Stennis according to plans already in place from the Gunther era.  The result is the GP MBA is once again slightly different than the MBA at Hattiesburg with AACSB in the past expressing concerns about two programs, too few faculty, and too few resources.  Sources tell me that fewer CoB faculty are willing to continue teaching in the declining MBA program each year.  Plans for it to become more "distance learning" to use fewer faculty to cover a program that is being expanded not by the CoB but by KM.  Some inside the CoB wonder if the declining MPA program will also use the EMBA area in the GP library as efforts are made to keep it a viable program.  "

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So, if I understand this correctly -- this prexisting program is expanding (and perhaps undergoing a metamophosis) but it is not doing so with the cooperation of the CoB faculty or the Dean but is instead by someone who is only marginally in the academic line to which HD and the College answer?

I'm trying to understand this The Dean isnlt driving this. The CoB faculty isn't (apparently) diriving this. It must be that it is at least technically being "guided" by the Provost's office -- but it is being implemented by KB who is the CEO (but not the chief academic officer) at Gulf Park and does not have ANY academic authority over CoB.

Do I have this right?

 

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Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"stephen--stupid me. the graduate bulletins from 98-99 on are online. the 98-99 bulletin mentions a professional masters of business degree program on the coast. primarily for part time students. don't take my word for it, look for yourselves."

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From the 1997-98 grad catalogue:

"A Professional Master of Business Administration (P.M.B.A.) and a Master of Professional Accountancy (M.P.A.) are offered on the Gulf Coast. The P.M. B.A. is similar to the M.B.A. but is tailored to satisfy the needs of part time students."

It appears to me that the PMBA and the MBA are not the same degree, though similar. It also makes snese that the EMBA would also be a different degree, even if similar. Otherwise, we could simply add prefixes to degrees and never have to run them through any academic review even if the chnages were substantial.

It appears to me that those who contend the EMBA is a "new" degree aren't far off.

I actually don't think this is being legalistic -- I think this is how we avoid having the wool pulled over our eyes.

But my scenerio here might not be an accurate one or account for practice . .  any thoughts?

quote:

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Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"stephen--do you mean KM as opposed to KB?"

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KM and KB are the same person-- Ken Malone and KenBot.

stephen--just looked at the oldest graduate bulletin online and here is the relevant passage about the difference between the MBA and the PMBA--

"The P.M.B.A. program is similar to the M.B.A. program but is offered on the Gulf Coast primarily for part-time students. P.M.B.A. students who have undergraduate business degrees can normally complete the program in two years, while other students usually will usually need three years to meet degree requirements. Most other aspects of the P.M.B.A. parallel the M.B.A. requirements discussed in the previous section. However, unlike the M.B.A. program, students can begin the P.M.B.A. program any semester."

If the EMBA is like the PMBA (geez--look at the acronyms) then i question the idea that it is a "new" program. i'm not sure what you mean by saying an EMBA is "new." new in what sense. my department's major is different than it was 20 years ago--new, i don't think so; just revised and updated.

i think you can make a case that the modifications have to be approved by the CoB faculty and the like (you'd think i am in that college but am not). but a new program, not having gone through the appropriate channels? tough to sell. particuarly with some 7-8 years of catalogue copy.

quote:

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Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"stephen--just looked at the oldest graduate bulletin online and here is the relevant passage about the difference between the MBA and the PMBA-- "The P.M.B.A. program is similar to the M.B.A. program but is offered on the Gulf Coast primarily for part-time students. P.M.B.A. students who have undergraduate business degrees can normally complete the program in two years, while other students usually will usually need three years to meet degree requirements. Most other aspects of the P.M.B.A. parallel the M.B.A. requirements discussed in the previous section. However, unlike the M.B.A. program, students can begin the P.M.B.A. program any semester." If the EMBA is like the PMBA (geez--look at the acronyms) then i question the idea that it is a "new" program. i'm not sure what you mean by saying an EMBA is "new." new in what sense. my department's major is different than it was 20 years ago--new, i don't think so; just revised and updated. i think you can make a case that the modifications have to be approved by the CoB faculty and the like (you'd think i am in that college but am not). but a new program, not having gone through the appropriate channels? tough to sell. particuarly with some 7-8 years of catalogue copy. "

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I'm getting ready to go home but gosh this is an interesting discussion over the arcania of academia (I think that has a nice ring).

My department's major is the same as well -- but I think if we were going to change the name of our degree we'd have to not only check with our accredting agency, but we'd have to run it through AC or GC, depending ( I am hypthesizing here). I think the reason we would need to do that would be that a name chnage often (or perhaps can) signal a content change or chnage of requirements that those bodies would need to pass on. Not to mention I could never get away with changing a degree name wo my faculty agreeing to it. And we would go beserk completely if someone from outside the department and field changed the degree. If, say, the Dean decided to create an "Executive MFA" out of the President MFA without getting us on board I think there would be a small riot.

My analogies might not work though. The whole Business area seems to run very differently from my own -- and of course we are much smaller so we tend to be very aware of everything in our program.

I'll check in tomorrow and see what fiurther thoughts there are on this.

I'm still not comfortable that some slickery isn't going on here.

 

stephen--i think business one has a sense of the problems with the change. but i also get the sense those have always been the problem with the MBA program on the coast. i just think the senate has to be very careful about how they characterize things. some label changes are substantive, some are marketing. need to do the research before speaking out.

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Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"stephen--i think business one has a sense of the problems with the change. but i also get the sense those have always been the problem with the MBA program on the coast. i just think the senate has to be very careful about how they characterize things. some label changes are substantive, some are marketing. need to do the research before speaking out."

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I'm in agreement with that -- Beckett made that point yesterday as well. I do thionk that if we cite specific incidents, we really MUST get the facts (hear that Dave!). On the other hand -- I don't think we need facts to let people know that we are discouraged and that the gulf of distrust so so huge working with anything like anything like hope or enthusiasm is pretty near impossible. If I look at a future that extends more than a year under this administration  . . . I start thinking about getting parapetetic again.

Thanks SCM and Business One for your thoughts and research.

Checkin out.

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Originally posted by: Linda
""

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Linda: thank you so much for this history (I obviously haven't left yet). This is extremely helpful in light of all of our earlier discussion. I am sure other sneators and folks from CoB are moniroing this, but I will post on facsen as my final entry for the vening.

Thank you.

The program requirements for the MBA at the coast have been the same as in Hattiesburg since the early 90’s when the program became under the Dean of COB, Dr. Black specifically. The required courses and the course content have been the same as well as the admission standards. Through most of this time the person who taught the course in Hattiesburg also taught the course at gulf park. There were a few exceptions but not many. This helps explain why the 1996 AACSB visit was so successful. At that time administrators from Mississippi State came to USM COB to learn about AACSB visit preparation. The use of eMBA was a marketing tool to designate an evening program. The Hattiesburg program offered both day and night classes back then.

linda--you clearly have an idea of what an "executive" mba is. can you clarify what you see such a program being, since i see all sorts of advertisements for them?

linda--enjoying your insights (as i'm sure others are). we all lose institutional memory (and the general memory) as we age. can you address my last question--what distinguishes an "executive" MBA from a regular MBA?

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Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"linda--enjoying your insights (as i'm sure others are). we all lose institutional memory (and the general memory) as we age. can you address my last question--what distinguishes an "executive" MBA from a regular MBA? "

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Historically, the executive MBA had different admission standards requiring a certain level of position in the organization. In addition, executive MBA programs would charge a premium price significantly above standard tuition. A number of proposals were presented to Stennis for  an executive MBA program with a premium price over the years but were rejected.  The program at Stennis was never presented as an executive MBA.  Usually in an executive MBA program, executives would come to campus for a Friday evening and a Saturday at specified intervals. Executive MBA programs were usually significantly shorter in length. The University of Alabama and Tulane offer successful executive MBA programs. Dr. Bill Gunther is very familiar with the program and could provide some insight. Other successful executive MBA programs are Tulane and SMU. I do not know of any fourth tier universities that offer a serious executive MBA program. 

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Originally posted by: stephen judd
"Surely someone would Invicitus --  but probably not ordinary faculty members. I think for most faculty the details of the process are not something folks spend a lot of time on -- it is simply too much. Although I can guess what a change report is, I have no idea what would trip a university's need to file one -- or what constitutes a significant enough "chnage to warrent one.  Or who in a university (beyond provost) would need to know. Would this kind of thing come through academic council? To my knowlege, it has not. "

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Actually, Stephen, "ordinary faculty" -- at least those who teach online classes -- should have been involved to some extent in a substantive change review. At the very least, some of them would have been interviewed by the SACS evaluators.

As to what would "trip" the need to file a substantive change, there are some pretty well-defined guidelines. In fact, they aren't SACS' guidelines, they are U.S. Department of Education guidelines written into the latest amendments to the Higher Education Act. For distance learning classes, there is a threshold defined by law -- the potential for a student to earn a specified percentage of total credits required for degree through "alternate delivery systems." For off-campus sites, there is a similar threshold. And there are also rules regarding establishing new campuses, new programs, expanding existing programs to new sites, changes in degree-award level, etc.

The main reason I believe that USM has not filed a true substantive change prospectus for distance learning is simply that the successful completion of such a review is a major PR event. I cannot recall Ms. Mader having a big party to announce that USM's online classes had passed a "stringent review," yada yada yada.

Believe me, Stephen, faculty would know if there had been a substantive review process, because if it had been conducted in a manner that would satisfy SACS, there would've been a bit of work placed on faculty teaching in the affected programs. The current USM administration's aversion to shared governance could not have extended to "getting the work done," or the review simply wouldn't have been approved.

And maybe that's pretty much what happened at USM.

I might add that most professional college administrators are not only sensitive to accreditation but are familiar with the rules. In my career, I've actually written one substantive review prospectus (a "pre-report," if you will) to send to SACS simply to satisfy upper administration that a full substantive review wasn't necessary. "Better safe than sorry" is the watchword.

I am still stunned that an institution the size of USM doesn't have an experienced SACS person in the upper echelon. Dr. Exline has a background in public health accreditation & that will surely help, but she is still a newbie as far as SACS goes. The fact that your president is not active in SACS (serving on committees or simply attending the meetings) is a very, very bad sign.

Now, speaking as an alumnus, I'll reiterate what I have been saying for a year on this board: Shelby Thames is an utterly incompetent university administrator. At any "normal" institution, he would not have lasted more than a few years in a mid-level "management" position, because he doesn't know what he's doing. The only reason Shelby is your president right now is that he is politically well-placed & is one of the old-line Hattiesburg "blue bloods." Without his family connection, he would have been out on his rear about 35 or 40 years ago when folks first started discovering what a boor he is.

To paraphrase a USM alumnus (Jimmy Buffett): "A**holes are born, not made, & seldom if ever change."

Advisement is a tough issue. In my College (no longer there thank goodness), if you misadvised on ANYTHING --- they'd nail you. That's what I hated about USM from the git-go, misadvise and it affects your candidacy for tenure and promotion. I had 126 advisees when I finally escaped that place, yet were they protected from the Dome Slime?