Thames on Top? - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Jan 15, 2005

Thames on Top?

Date: Jan 15, 2005

What a bunch of crap. Here's why.

Thames quoted in today's CL: "This is about distance learning and continuing education. It has nothing to do with academic programming, the delivery of academics, how we teach our courses or the quality of our courses," Thames said Friday. "We have no doubt we're going to resolve this problem."

Question: Since when is an online course or a course delivered through video media from one campus to another not about academics? Online courses ARE courses and USM has recently announced that half of the gulf coast campus students will be taking online courses, so he is obviously trying to blow smoke up some ignorant person's a--hole with this quote.

Enough said - it speaks for itself.

Date: Jan 15, 2005

Disclaimer: the following comments are not, obviously, official minutes of the Faculty Senate meeting yesterday. However, I am a member of that body who was in attendence yesterday, and they reflect my memory and notes of the occasion.

In her presentation to the Faculty Senate yesterday, Joan Exline was asked about the SACS letter's definition of the offending "distance learning." Twice, she told faculty senators that the term "distance learning" was used to describe all classes not taught strictly on "the home campus"--ie.the Hattiesburg campus. When I asked for even further clarification, she responded in the affirmative to my question (paraphrased) "So the category `distance learning' includes, for instance, any class taught at the Gulf Coast centers, even those taught in traditional classroom settings with no technological content, no IVN or on-line content at all?"

If it's true that SACS has problems with USM's handling of issues relating to all the classes taught at the Gulf Coast centers--Stennis, Gulf Park, Keesler AFB, Jackson County--then SACS is not referring to an isolated problem that has nothing to do with academics, as President Thames and his supporters tend to characterize it. Is it not rational to infer, rather, that the SACS letter is referring to problems that it perceives with the entire Coast academic operation, which instructs thousands of students a year? An academic operation which, since the ascent of President Thames, has been run by the Hattiesburg provost, deans and department chairs?

(Note that I'm asking questions)

Date: Jan 15, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Will Watson
"Disclaimer: the following comments are not, obviously, official minutes of the Faculty Senate meeting yesterday. However, I am a member of that body who was in attendence yesterday, and they reflect my memory and notes of the occasion. In her presentation to the Faculty Senate yesterday, Joan Exline was asked about the SACS letter's definition of the offending "distance learning." Twice, she told faculty senators that the term "distance learning" was used to describe all classes not taught strictly on "the home campus"--ie.the Hattiesburg campus. When I asked for even further clarification, she responded in the affirmative to my question (paraphrased) "So the category `distance learning' includes, for instance, any class taught at the Gulf Coast centers, even those taught in traditional classroom settings with no technological content, no IVN or on-line content at all?" If it's true that SACS has problems with USM's handling of issues relating to all the classes taught at the Gulf Coast centers--Stennis, Gulf Park, Keesler AFB, Jackson County--then SACS is not referring to an isolated problem that has nothing to do with academics, as President Thames and his supporters tend to characterize it. Is it not rational to infer, rather, that the SACS letter is referring to problems that it perceives with the entire Coast academic operation, which instructs thousands of students a year? An academic operation which, since the ascent of President Thames, has been run by the Hattiesburg provost, deans and department chairs? (Note that I'm asking questions) "

Right you are Dr. Watson -- and your memory is good. I believe Dr. Crockett made this point very effectively in the meeting yesterday as well . . . this IS about academics. And I believe that he also cited how much about academics it was for the Gulf Coast if they were going to up the number of distance learning students to over 2000.

And yes -- if the concept of "distance" learning as we are hearing it is true, then it also includes many "traditional" courses taught off site (meaning off the main campus). So this isn;t really as "minor" a concern as the public has been lead to believe, nor is it just an "administrative" issue of reporting.

Date: Jan 15, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Will Watson
"In her presentation to the Faculty Senate yesterday, Joan Exline was asked about the SACS letter's definition of the offending "distance learning." Twice, she told faculty senators that the term "distance learning" was used to describe all classes not taught strictly on "the home campus"--ie.the Hattiesburg campus. When I asked for even further clarification, she responded in the affirmative to my question (paraphrased) "So the category `distance learning' includes, for instance, any class taught at the Gulf Coast centers, even those taught in traditional classroom settings with no technological content, no IVN or on-line content at all?"

The Gulf Coast centers absolutely are included in SACS' definition of "distance learning," as are IVN courses, online courses, correspondence courses, and study abroad programs. All are classes not taught strictly on "the home campus."

Date: Jan 15, 2005

not to diminish the academic concerns, but the last comment made me think and realize that some of the issues are administrative. for example, have we ever assessed and evaluated the british study program? i think it is excellent--so a child of mine said. but SACS says that unless you're assessing and evaluating it, you can't claim it's an excellent learning experience.

Date: Jan 15, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"not to diminish the academic concerns, but the last comment made me think and realize that some of the issues are administrative. for example, have we ever assessed and evaluated the british study program? i think it is excellent--so a child of mine said. but SACS says that unless you're assessing and evaluating it, you can't claim it's an excellent learning experience. "

SCM: you are right, it is Administrative as well as Academic. We all understand these distinctions -- the problem is that the public does not. When it hears it is not academic (from the administration) it believes that this means the programs are actually good -- when in reality, as SCM points out, our failure to perform assessments on the programs means we don't know whether they are good or not.

When the public hears administrative, it tends to believe (aided by the crafty way in which the message is couched) that it is just a matter of getting the right paperwork together. As though some secretary in some obscure office simply forgot to put the stamp on the letter and send it in.

Truly, one of the worst things about the last three years has been how devious the university has been in its public statements. I've opposed establishing majors in public relations in other institutions because of my belief that in practice the art of public relations isn't about telling the truth, it is about managing (and thus often concealing) truth and that that objective is fundamentally antithetical to the moral imperative of the university to pursue truth even at a cost. I hope I haven't insulted anyone in that field, but it is one of the few "professional" practices the university shouldn't embrace. This administration and its practice of concealing, shading, bending and even, at times lying only reaffirms that belief.

Date: Jan 15, 2005

scm,

Sure a lot of the issues are administrative--but you won't find Thames saying so, because then he'd have to accepting acccountability...

As I noted on another thread, Thames and Exline were quoted in the CL story to the effect that they don't know how many distance learning programs USM has.

So much for Thames being on top of things.

Robert Campbell

Date: Jan 15, 2005

robert--i frankly don't want thames, or clemson's president, or any university's president to have at the tip of their tongue the number of distance learning programs their university has. i do, however, expect the president to be able to find out that information from the person who administers those programs. at USM i think that's CICE.

Date: Jan 15, 2005

Looks like it. F*** this place.

Date: Jan 15, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Here to stay?
"Looks like it. F*** this place."

An understadable sentiment.

But let's not confuse the man and the institution. Of the man and the city. Or the man and the state.

This state has its quota of yahoos, jerks and barbarians. But it isn't alone. I've lived subtantial amounts of time in at least ten states -- yahoos, jerks and barbarians are everywhere. They just manifest themselves differently.

Good people are there too. And when I think about my job as a professor in mississippi, i am reminded that I am also an employee of the state of mississippi whose job is to serve the people who pay me. Some of them might not all agree with how I choose to serve them, but I have to believe in the long run the jerks, barbarians and yahoos are in the minority and what is left are people who want the best for their kids and are confused by the argument.

Date: Jan 15, 2005

An inspiring sentiment, SJ, and one that holds merit. I agree.

Date: Jan 15, 2005

I have asked this repeatedly of the USM employees on this board & I'm asking it again:

HAS USM FILED A SUBSTANTIVE CHANGE REPORT WITH SACS FOR DISTANCE LEARNING?

If what I read in the paper is correct, USM officials aren't sure how many distance learning programs USM operates, so I assume the answer to that question is, "No."

So I'll follow it up with the question:

DID USM FILE A SUBSTANTIVE CHANGE REPORT WITH SACS WHEN GULF PARK WAS "ELEVATED" TO CO-CAMPUS STATUS?

Surely somebody on the faculty knows the answer to these questions...

Date: Jan 15, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
"I have asked this repeatedly of the USM employees on this board & I'm asking it again: HAS USM FILED A SUBSTANTIVE CHANGE REPORT WITH SACS FOR DISTANCE LEARNING? If what I read in the paper is correct, USM officials aren't sure how many distance learning programs USM operates, so I assume the answer to that question is, "No." So I'll follow it up with the question: DID USM FILE A SUBSTANTIVE CHANGE REPORT WITH SACS WHEN GULF PARK WAS "ELEVATED" TO CO-CAMPUS STATUS? Surely somebody on the faculty knows the answer to these questions..."

Surely someone would Invicitus -- but probably not ordinary faculty members. I think for most faculty the details of the process are not something folks spend a lot of time on -- it is simply too much. Although I can guess what a change report is, I have no idea what would trip a university's need to file one -- or what constitutes a significant enough "chnage to warrent one. Or who in a university (beyond provost) would need to know.

Would this kind of thing come through academic council? To my knowlege, it has not.

This issue yesterday with co-campus vs. "branch" was the first time many of us in the senate had heard this issue of definitions. It wasn't clear to me from Jaon's presentation whether what we were hearing was that the status of the campus had chnaged or the language was being bright into alingment with SACs language -- or whether the SACs language was being used to diguise a chnage in status. At yesterday's meeting the couple of our folks on Senat who are our residents SACs experts did not challenge on this issue.

I missed your earlier posting so maybe you can explain again what we should look for and what its significance is.

INcidently, on another issue -- the process with the new so called MBA Business degree at Gulf Park seems wildly wrong. The Bsiness faculty at the Senate meeting had never heard of it, had not been asked to approve it, and had not seen the thirty eight page document (inclding the plans for the GC library). Apparently Doty has not been a part of this either. Yet the document has it listed as an MBA. Apprently grad council has not been involved either.

At the rate faculty is being ignored on these issues, I am beginning to feel as though my presence on academic council is not only not needed, but is actually contributing the the appearance that we have a process of shared governance and that the faculty actually do have the primary responsbility for academic programs.

Date: Jan 15, 2005

incidently to the members of the board --

I'm sorry for my typos. I'm never the best typist (never got one of those typing courses when I was a kid so I have always been a hunt'n pecker. I'm fast but ham-fingered and when I am excited my fingers just can't keep up. So just deal with my typos as though it is some form of literary stutter and be charitable . . . thanks.

Date: Jan 15, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"robert--i frankly don't want thames, or clemson's president, or any university's president to have at the tip of their tongue the number of distance learning programs their university has. i do, however, expect the president to be able to find out that information from the person who administers those programs. at USM i think that's CICE."

scm,

With all due respect, any president who has known for over a month that the university's accrediting body is demanding information about distance learning programs would make sure that someone did the research and briefed him thoroughly on it so he would be prepared to address the media on the subject. The same goes for Joan Exline, whose official duties include accreditation.

Just another sign that Thames (and Exline) still don't get it.

Robert Campbell

Date: Jan 15, 2005

robert--i agree with you on being better prepared on the issue. i also got the impression that they were caught flat-footed on the only apparent issue being distance learning (broadly defined). they were led to believe there was more in their discussions at SACS.

Date: Jan 15, 2005

stephen--i talked with someone who has good institutional memory. this mba program on the coast (the purpose of the word executive is unclear, although it is rather common for business programs) was developed several years ago under the former business dean--Gunther. was designed to help those at the stennis center get an mba. apparently had difficulty admitting people.

Date: Jan 15, 2005

While Gunther started the EMBA program to serve Stennis, others inside the college had the task to get the enrollment up. During that time Stephen Bushardt was the MBA Director. Perhaps assessment will determine if students were admitted that did not meet the college and/or university admission standards and whether or not the program quality was equal to the MBA degree found at the other locations.

Business One

Date: Jan 15, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Business One
"While Gunther started the EMBA program to serve Stennis, others inside the college had the task to get the enrollment up. During that time Stephen Bushardt was the MBA Director. Perhaps assessment will determine if students were admitted that did not meet the college and/or university admission standards and whether or not the program quality was equal to the MBA degree found at the other locations. Business One "

So now I am really confused.

SCM and Business One -- are you saying that the Executive MBA Program has already been passed by the Business School, approved by Graduate Council and implemented at GC at some point iin the past? I find that suprising in light of the reaction my my senate colleagues from the School of Business and Grad Council -- and I believe Bill Gunther was present during the Senate meeting although I think he left early and don't know if he left before this came up. Unfortunately, I did not get a close look at the document as it was circulated, but I suspect someone on this board has access to it and might be able to abstract out what the document says about the Program's origins.

I'm really confused here -- but then I am beginning to get to the point where I feel that is a permanent state of affairs in my world . . .

Date: Jan 15, 2005

The Sign of the Thames is indeed a strange time. To quote Leon Russell, we have become "strangers in a strange land". It could be so much better. I attended school with Dana, watch out for that one. Quick trigger temper and less than thoughtful (dumba$$) responses when that happens. Why would she call a faculty meeting on the Monday before contractually they were to report back on Thursday? But I drift . . . that question belongs in another post. However, the fact that she felt like she was entitled to do that ought to scare the bejeezus out of most of you faculty members. I remain an interested outsider.

Date: Jan 15, 2005

stephen--even sometimes i get confused about this stuff--can't tell the players without a program. i'm fortunate i know someone who has good institutional memory. business one is absolutely correct. this not a new program. i have said this before--i get worried about the lack of institutional memory among members of the various major governing bodies on this campus. they have to be willing to reach out to certain members of the administration who have such memory, even though they may not want to. if not, they will make very uninformed comments that will undermine their credibility.

Date: Jan 15, 2005

The lie continues:

From WLBT in Jackson, tonight:

"USM's long distance learning program is being called into question by a regional accreditation group.

The Southern Association of Colleges and Schools placed the university on probation for a year in December. The organization found deficiencies in USM's distance education activities and cited the school for failing to evaluate all its long distance learning activities.

President Shelby Thames said they were pleased there was only one issue of concern cited by the association and that did not involve the university's academic quality, programming for delivery of academic programs. "

Date: Jan 15, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"stephen--even sometimes i get confused about this stuff--can't tell the players without a program. i'm fortunate i know someone who has good institutional memory. business one is absolutely correct. this not a new program. i have said this before--i get worried about the lack of institutional memory among members of the various major governing bodies on this campus. they have to be willing to reach out to certain members of the administration who have such memory, even though they may not want to. if not, they will make very uninformed comments that will undermine their credibility. "

Thanks SCM. I'll get back to my colleagues and see if I can find out what is going on here. I know that a number of the School of Business people on the senate aren't exactly new hires so I'm still mystified that they are mystified if this is true. Something must have happened in the interim that has made this EMBA unreconizable to them . . . . I can't believe they have simply forgotten it . . .

Date: Jan 15, 2005

stephen--maybe they just didn't pay attention. until the last couple of years here some faculty didn't pay attention to curricular issues. business one has the names correct according to my source.

Date: Jan 15, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"stephen--maybe they just didn't pay attention. until the last couple of years here some faculty didn't pay attention to curricular issues. business one has the names correct according to my source."

Possible -- I can understand that myself, especially in a big program with many "arms."

I have abstracted elements of our conversation out and posted it on the facsen listserv to get some reaction.

Thanks for the info.

Do you think it is possible that the program just "died" and so hasn't been on anybody's radar screen for a while? If the administration is reviving a moribund program it would seem that technically it would be correct to say that the program has already been vetted by the faculty but it also seems wrong to press full speed ahead with reviving such a program not only without consulting faculty (especially if there havebeen many personnel and programmatic changes in the intervening time frame) and letting grad council know what was happening but even over (if I understand this correctly) the opposition of the present Dean.

I am completely open to correction on anything I may be mistating -- I'm trying to relate the events and issues as I understand them.

Thanks.

Date: Jan 15, 2005

stephen--from my source you are probably right about reviving a program. apparently, the program had a difficult time admitting people from Stennis--didn't meet admissions standards or something. never was able to enroll as many people as anticipated. it may have become dormant. as you well know, there's a lot of difference between saying it didn't go through appropriate governance channels and saying that the process of reviving it needs to get more input.

Date: Jan 15, 2005

stephen--let me add to my previous comment. i am looking at a copy of the 2002-2003 graduate bulletin (amazing what i have at my house). page 63. let me quote--"A Master of Business Administration (M.B.A) is also offered on the Gulf Coast."

addendum--further rooting around in my house revealed i had a 2001-2002 graduate bulletin. quoting from page 62: "A Master of Business Administration (M.B.A) and a Master of Professional Accountancy (M.P.A) are also offered on the Gulf Coast."

now--there may be an issue with this program being now being called an "executive" program. what that means is unclear to my source--typically it means a combination of two things--it is designed to attract executives, and because of their schedules, the program has to be taught on a non-traditional schedule--evenings, weekends, online, etc.

but stephen, if i can dig through a few old graduate bulletins, why can't members of the faculty senate?

Date: Jan 15, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"stephen--let me add to my previous comment. i am looking at a copy of the 2002-2003 graduate bulletin (amazing what i have at my house). page 63. let me quote--"A Master of Business Administration (M.B.A) is also offered on the Gulf Coast." addendum--further rooting around in my house revealed i had a 2001-2002 graduate bulletin. quoting from page 62: "A Master of Business Administration (M.B.A) and a Master of Professional Accountancy (M.P.A) are also offered on the Gulf Coast." now--there may be an issue with this program being now being called an "executive" program. what that means is unclear to my source--typically it means a combination of two things--it is designed to attract executives, and because of their schedules, the program has to be taught on a non-traditional schedule--evenings, weekends, online, etc. but stephen, if i can dig through a few old graduate bulletins, why can't members of the faculty senate? "

They may be doing this even as we speak. Knowlege about this "revival' came just within the last couple of days and it was provoked by a number of events . . . the chief event was learning that the third floor of the GC library would be altered to house the program. It may also be that the "E" has confused people as well -- not sure about that. I do know when it came up in facsen yesterday it seemed to be a complete suprise to several senators from business. We didn't have a catalogue on hand to refer to at that point.

I'm going to keep posting this information (lightly edited) on facsen listserv. I've actually found that the listserv has functioned reasonably well to quash rumors and get more accurate information.

Thanks for doing the homework. I suspect it will encourage some senators to trace this down as well.

Date: Jan 15, 2005

The same is taking place at the Jackson County campus with the MBA to meet the "need" there; pushed by KM but CoB going along with it since HD has no choice. Now the EMBA "expands" to GP from Stennis according to plans already in place from the Gunther era. The result is the GP MBA is once again slightly different than the MBA at Hattiesburg with AACSB in the past expressing concerns about two programs, too few faculty, and too few resources. Sources tell me that fewer CoB faculty are willing to continue teaching in the declining MBA program each year. Plans for it to become more "distance learning" to use fewer faculty to cover a program that is being expanded not by the CoB but by KM. Some inside the CoB wonder if the declining MPA program will also use the EMBA area in the GP library as efforts are made to keep it a viable program.