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USM Forum -- Message Board -> AAUP-USM MESSAGE BOARD -> Full funding for education? It may be too late
Post Info TOPIC: Full funding for education? It may be too late
David Johnson

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Full funding for education? It may be too late
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Quoting Mike Lott, R-Petal in today's Hattiesburg American regarding the state being #49 in per-pupil spending:

"Money doesn't always mean a quality education," he said. "What we're trying to do at the state level is put the emphasis back on the classroom because that's where education happens at."

Where it "happens at"? No doubt Mr. Lott attended one of those underfunded MS schools where one was not taught that a sentence ought not end in a preposition. I can remember as a child growing up in Tennessee (not one of the top ten funders of education, I might add), my mother answering any question ending with "at" (i.e. "Where is my book at?")by saying..."Right behind the at." She had a high school education...nothing more. But, she insisted we have some idea of how to use the language.

It seems to me that, insofar as the state of Mississippi is concerned, the LEGISLATURE is perhaps where education ought to happen "at". Who elects these people?

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Grammar Queen

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I hate to be picky, but there is no grammar rule against using a preposition at the end of a sentence.  It's a matter of style, not grammar.



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Former grammarian

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quote:
Originally posted by: David Johnson
"No doubt Mr. Lott attended one of those underfunded MS schools where one was not taught that a sentence ought not end in a preposition. I can remember as a child growing up in Tennessee (not one of the top ten funders of education, I might add), my mother answering any question ending with "at" (i.e. "Where is my book at?")by saying..."Right behind the at." She had a high school education...nothing more."
I used to think that also, David. My mother and my public school teachers taught me what was proper at that time. But I was set straight right here on this message board - from somebody in English, I do believe. Maybe the rules changed as society and common usage changed. Nonetheless, things of the type you mentioned still bother me.

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Ain't

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quote:
Originally posted by: Grammar Queen
"I hate to be picky, but there is no grammar rule against using a preposition at the end of a sentence.  It's a matter of style, not grammar."
There may be no rule about using a preposition at the end of a sentence, but if I were a publisher or an editor and saw one of my reporters consistently using words that way, I'd place a position announcement in the classifieds.

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Flash Gordon

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Isn't Churchill reputed to have said "Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put"?

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Robert Campbell

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David,


The rule against asking "Where is it at?" isn't a general rule against "preposition stranding," as the linguists call it.


Winston Churchill took care of the purported rule against preposition-stranding: "That is the sort of arrant pedantry, up with which I shall not put."


Getting back to the important stuff, I doubt that the legislator in question has any real commitment to getting a higher percentage of each education dollar into the classroom.  Otherwise he would be calling for tracking and reducing administrative spending--something legislators do very little of.


Robert Campbell



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David Johnson

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RE: RE: Full funding for education? It may be too
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quote:
Originally posted by: Grammar Queen
"I hate to be picky, but there is no grammar rule against using a preposition at the end of a sentence.  It's a matter of style, not grammar."


That being the case, I certainly wouldn't want to underfund style Mississippi in. As anyone knows, and as I just posted on another thread, we can just keep lowering the rungs until anyone can get on. Say what you will about "grammar rules," I still think the majority of educated folk would find Mr. Lott's statement harsh their ears on.

Have I intruded your ears enough upon?

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David Johnson

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quote:
Originally posted by: Robert Campbell
"David,
The rule against asking "Where is it at?" isn't a general rule against "preposition stranding," as the linguists call it.
Winston Churchill took care of the purported rule against preposition-stranding: "That is the sort of arrant pedantry, up with which I shall not put."
Getting back to the important stuff, I doubt that the legislator in question has any real commitment to getting a higher percentage of each education dollar into the classroom.  Otherwise he would be calling for tracking and reducing administrative spending--something legislators do very little of.
Robert Campbell"


Oh, you are more than a little right about that is my bet, Dr. C. The statement in fact means "we are putting the pressure on the schoolteachers to do more and more with less and less for almost nothing." To paraphrase Mr. Churchill, "Never have so few done so much with so little." Churchill reportedly ran around in the nude a good bit, too, including being happened upon in the White House by then-President Kennedy (I believe). As Mr. Churchill's figure and mine are not that dissimilar, I wonder if I ought to appear naked in the dome? That'd flush out an administrator or two.

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stinky cheese man

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RE: Full funding for education? It may be too late
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david--what if your birthday suit didn't flush out administrator or two?

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I have a cousin who . . .

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RE: RE: RE: Full funding for education? It may be too
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quote:
Originally posted by: David Johnson
"we can just keep lowering the rungs until anyone can get on."
David's comment, and all of this talk about enrollment enhancement, has jogged my memory. Has any faculty member or department ever felt any undue pressure, internal or external, to admit an otherwise less qualified student to your graduate program?

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David Johnson

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quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"david--what if your birthday suit didn't flush out administrator or two?"


I almost feel that you are throwing down the gauntlet here, SCM. But, I shall not take the bait. My fear is that someone else in the dome whose figure is even more like Churchill's than my own (you fill in the blank) would join me in my pursuit of the naked revelry. And, that would send me back into therapy with a vengeance!

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A stitch in time

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RE: Full funding for education? It may be too late
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Why should you be any different David, when a naked emperor reigns?

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USU, Inc.

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I see that Kobe Bryant's jersey (#8), previously one of the biggest sellers in the world, has fallen out of the top 50. Sort of like USM falling into the fourth tier. It'll be interesting to see who recovers first: the manufacturer of Kobe's jerseys, or USM, Inc. 

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educator

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revealing my prejudices again, Mike Lott was an assistant principal at Petal High School where his daughter and my daughter were classmates. I tend to believe in what Mike Lott states. I am a proud supporter of the Petal Public School System (even though Oak Grove does not want to play them in football for at least the next 2 years).  Mike Lott, articulate what you believe and relate it to all of us interested in the swift stakes in higher education.

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Otherside

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RE: RE: RE: RE: Full funding for education? It may be too
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quote:
Originally posted by: I have a cousin who . . .
"David's comment, and all of this talk about enrollment enhancement, has jogged my memory. Has any faculty member or department ever felt any undue pressure, internal or external, to admit an otherwise less qualified student to your graduate program?"

Yes and no.  We review applicants and reject the ones that are too weak.  But then later we discover the chair on up approves the applicant for "conditional" admission.  Of course the condition is usually making up undergraduate work.  With the grade inflation situation what it is,  they don't usually find this difficult.  So we have weak students entering graduate programs.



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Done gone

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RE: Full funding for education? It may be too late
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"So we have weak students entering graduate programs."

Amen. And it partially has been part of the push to keep enrollment up so the IHL won't discontinue the programs. Le't's face it. We are a small, rural state, and some of our very best graduate programs have small enrollments.

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Rule Benders

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RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Full funding for education? It may be too
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quote:
Originally posted by: Otherside
" Yes and no.  We review applicants and reject the ones that are too weak.  But then later we discover the chair on up approves the applicant for "conditional" admission.  Of course the condition is usually making up undergraduate work.  With the grade inflation situation what it is,  they don't usually find this difficult.  So we have weak students entering graduate programs."
With your newest graduate program addition in COST, expect to see even more of that.

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Don't tread on me

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RE: Full funding for education? It may be too late
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If I were chairing a graduate admissions committee or a department whose recommendations were overridden by forces outside the department, they'd be looking for a new chair before I could return the folders to the graduate office, or say Jack Robinson, whichever came first. I didn't go into this field to sacrifice my integrity like that.  


 



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educator

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Mike Lott, please take note. You will receive a call from me and all I'm going to do is ask you to look at this MB.

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ram

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David, I am with you.


Churchill's quote has always caused me to chuckle, but isn't it an exception?  The reason it is funny is because it turns an idiom (i.e., "put up with") on its head.  (In other words, "with" isn't functioning as a preposition, it is just a piece of an idiom.) The humor is in breaking up the idiom. Substitute the synonym "tolerate" and there is no need to invert the idiom: "That is the sort of arrant pedantry, I shall not tolerate."  (It's also not very funny.)


All of that to say, I think the better practice is to avoid terminal prepositions, if possible -- at least in situations where standard usage is appropriate.  One can wonder whether non-standard usage is politically expedient in Mississippi. 


But none of that has anything to do with the "at" at the end. 


With apologies to Dr. Campbell et al, I believe that speakers of standard English, do not end a sentence with "at" -- not because it is a preposition -- but because it is meaningless.  When Rep. Lott said, "The classroom is where education happens," he should have stopped.  His last word added nothing. Just try to move the "at" to its "proper" place in Rep. Lott's original sentence. I can't do it.  "At" is just an unneccesary addition.


(Another common example of this linguistic frailty is the phrase "whether or not" that almost invariably means the same thing as "whether" because the alternate possibilities are expressed in the single word.)


My wife tells me that I have been distracted.



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Pet Peeve

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quote:
Originally posted by: ram
"(Another common example of this linguistic frailty is the phrase "whether or not" that almost invariably means the same thing as "whether" because the alternate possibilities are expressed in the single word.) "
Irregardless makes me crazy.

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David Johnson

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RE: RE: RE: RE: Full funding for education? It may
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quote:
Originally posted by: Pet Peeve
"Irregardless makes me crazy."


With thanks to ram, who put the matter much more appropriately than did I, I find I simply must pose this question. I should not, but I am compelled as if addicted:

Irregardless of whether or not it makes you crazy, where does it make you crazy at?

Churchill was a pip.

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Gnome Chompski

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RE: RE: RE: Full funding for education? It may be too late
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quote:
Originally posted by: ram
"With apologies to Dr. Campbell et al, I believe that speakers of standard English, (?) do not end a sentence with "at" -- not because it is a preposition -- but because it is meaningless.  "
They also do not waste perfectly good commas to no end.

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LVN

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But "where y'at dahlin' " is perfectly correct -- in New Orleans. That's why they call some folks down there "Yats"

as for Mike Lott, I always give the benefit of the doubt to people being quoted in the newspaper. The quotations are not always completely accurate.

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David Johnson

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RE: RE: Full funding for education? It may be too
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quote:
Originally posted by: LVN
"But "where y'at dahlin' " is perfectly correct -- in New Orleans. That's why they call some folks down there "Yats"

as for Mike Lott, I always give the benefit of the doubt to people being quoted in the newspaper. The quotations are not always completely accurate."


A very good point, LVN. If, as you suggest, the reporter may have added the superfluous and mildly offensive "at" to the sentence, then the question would become where the reporter's education happened at.

Don't ask who the bell tolls for. It's you it tolls for. Not quite the same, is it?

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David Johnson

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RE: Full funding for education? It may be too late
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I started this thread to have a little fun, and I've mostly had it. Apologies to Mr. Lott for taking my fun at his expense.

Reminds me a bit of an old joke, the punch line of which is:

"Oh, alright. So, where y'all from, b***H?"

I'm sure most of you have heard it. And that is all I am going to say about that at. Well, now at least for.

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Gnome 'mam

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quote:
Originally posted by: Gnome Chompski
"They also do not waste perfectly good commas to no end."
Gnome Chompski. Well that wraps up Sunday's nom d'Aplomb award. Vict, Mal & Miss Information have to take note of this clever moniker.

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mal

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Thanks, LVN.  Being a former high school teacher and principal, I really do know it is best not to end a sentence with a preposition.


I also know from being an elected official who is sometimes quoted in print, that reporter's do not always print exactly what is said....and oh, how it really bothered me to see what you saw in black and white for the public to read.  When I saw it today, my biggest fear was exactly what happened on this message board.  Educated people have made quick assumptions and branded someone guilty, without knowing the truth.  It is almost amusing!  If I were not used to it, I might get mad. Instead, I would simply ask readers of newspapers to not believe it just because someone else quoted it.   Am I flawless, in my written and spoken grammar...No.  Are you?  I cannot answer that.  But, if you are not, then it may be best to not comment.  I know how easy it is to read a newspaper and assume that a quote is accurate.  Before I became an elected official, I surely was guilty of doing the same.  How quickly one learns when he walks in the shoes of the accused!


Looking beyond the frail grammatical point, there was a posting from someone who doubts my real attempts to do anything about getting a higher amount of education dollars into the classroom.....strong allegations from someone who apparently does not know Mike Lott or his work in the Mississippi House of Representatives.  (If you would like, I will mail you a copy of the twenty-five pages of material that I have researched and assembled just yesterday related to salaries and fringe benefits of every public school superintendent in this state-----just one, yet the most recent, example of my interest in cutting administrative costs in our public schools so there will be more money for instruction).  I am actually use to such comments from people who do not know what I believe or do as a legislator.  It is amazing that so many people who have never met or spoken with me, and who know nothing of my service as a legislator seem to consider themselves knowledgeable enough to make judgemental comments.  Comes with the territory, and I am used to it, but must admit that I do not think I will ever appreciate it. 


Lest I sound insulted, which I am not, let me invite anyone who would like to know more about Mike Lott and his work in the legislature to contact me by email at mlott@mail.house.state.ms.us  or even better, call me on my cell phone anytime, 601-408-2598.


To the person named "educator" on this message board---thank you for your kind comments.  Actually, when one gets to know me, I am not such a bad guy, even though I am a legislator.  In fact, I consider my background and experience as an educator very useful to me in my role as a legislator.  I only wish there were as many of us in the legislature as there are attorneys.



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mal

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Oooops!   All you grammar conscious readers.... I just checked my post.  Should have proofed it!   "student's" should be plural in form, not possessive! 



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Robert Campbell

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mal,


My apologies.


Too bad you can't give some instruction to South Carolina legislators--or to our state superintendent's office.


In SC, the counties with the worst schools tend to have the highest per pupil expenditures.


Robert Campbell



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