memo from Grimes - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Jan 6, 2005

RE: memo from Grimes

Date: Jan 6, 2005

i just talked with someone as "long in the tooth" at USM as i am about this thread, but with better institutional memory, and this person said--new! one time Lucas opened up every class at USM, with the same rationale that we can't turn students away. a top down decision.

Date: Jan 6, 2005

Delta Dawn's "administrative sabbaticals" proposal a few months ago appeared on the surface to have some merit, but I fear we're way past the point where administrative sabbaticals could do any good now.

Date: Jan 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"i just talked with someone as "long in the tooth" at USM as i am about this thread, but with better institutional memory, and this person said--new! one time Lucas opened up every class at USM, with the same rationale that we can't turn students away. a top down decision."

If we are talking about the same incident in the 80's, it was Huffman. It was a day or two into late registration which used to be very big before the financial penalty was increased. Many of the most popular core classes were closed, and the line in the HUB was massive. Huffman took the limits off of all classes. This was not on a case by case basis, nor was it a matter of adding a few slots to each class. Predictably, the students went for the most popular times. Classrooms with 70 chairs suddenly had enrollments of 110. It was a disaster that was never repeated.

Date: Jan 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Camera Capers
"I recall when a small group of people never believed that man was ever sent to the moon. They claimed that it was all staged, for political reasons, with cameras and props designed to simulate the moon environment. I have read so many bizarre and unbelievable things on this message board that, if I stumbled upon this site by accident, I could easily believe that the board is just a spoof like one might read in Mad Magazine. "

The Thames administration is a spoof of real university governance, certainly worthy of Mad Magazine, except that there is nothing good-natured about it.

Date: Jan 6, 2005

as i said earlier it was done to my department other times. no consultation, just done.

Date: Jan 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Grey Beard
" it was Huffman . . . . It was a disaster . . . ."

How surprising. I am shocked.

Date: Jan 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Amy Young
"To: Dr. Elliott Pood; Dr. Harold Doty; Dr. Pete Fos; Dr. Rex Gandy; Dr. Willie Pierce; 'Adel Ali'; 'Allan McBride'; 'Alvin Williams'; 'Ann Blackwell'; 'Charles Bolton'; 'Charles Elliott'; 'Charles Tardy'; 'Chris Winstead'; 'Clifton Dixon'; 'Cyndi Gaudet'; 'Dana Thames'; 'David Davies'; '... "

I find my amusement where I can... Am I the only one who noticed that the deans are addressed as "Dr.", while everyone else on the list (department chairs & assistant deans) are addressed on a "first name basis"?

[I know it's because there are more than likely discrete entries for each of the deans in Dr. Grimes' address book, while he was probably pulling the others off the mail server, but it does look funny. Just remember, if you maintain your own address book, you can put anything you want for the name -- I addressed my former boss as "

-for-brains" ... until he learned to read e-mail headers!

]

Date: Jan 6, 2005

The rationale for overbooking classes is quite logical. With our open enrollment there are so many students not qualified for university that the drop rate is unusually large. It isn't unusual for introductory math and science classes to end the semester with half of the students who started. Thus good business sense dictates that classes be overbooked.

Since we have a grade inflation problem and our strategic goal #1 is 20,000-student enrollment, I don't expect things to change for the better in the near future unless........___________________ (fill in the blank)

Date: Jan 6, 2005

And this comes at a great emotional and psychological cost to the student (and to the instructor sometimes.) I did not enjoy counseling students who were totally unprepared for my class -- some of these were capable students who were just not ready for university level work. In every case, it was painful for the student, and sometimes expensive. I gave only one F, for plagiarism, because I was able to persuade the other F students to drop my class and take the remedial class next time. As an adjunct, it really should not be part of my job to be an academic advisor and counsellor; under the bigger is better way of life, however, we all have to do everything we can to protect our students.

What a terrible thing to do to young people -- to sacrifice their hearts on an altar of one man's misguided and foolish goal.

Date: Jan 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: LVN
" What a terrible thing to do to young people -- to sacrifice their hearts on an altar . . ."

As I heard a colleague once say about the miserable way in which students are sometimes misled around here . . . "We sell dreams."

Date: Jan 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: LVN
"And this comes at a great emotional and psychological cost to the student (and to the instructor sometimes.) I did not enjoy counseling students who were totally unprepared for my class -- some of these were capable students who were just not ready for university level work. In every case, it was painful for the student, and sometimes expensive. "

This brings back fond (seriously) memories of my freshman political science class, which was a required course and not particularly popular with most students. The prof, a relatively young but earnest and dedicated fellow, gave a first day lecture I'll never forget. I'm paraphrasing but it was something to the effect that he knew most of us were in his class only because we had no other choice if we wished to earn a degree. Many others were there either because they didn't know what else to do with their life, or because their parents wanted them to attend college. He went on to say that he expected everyone to show up for every class, read the required text and all supplementary readings, and take notes as his lectures would not duplicate the text coverage. There would be no grading curve, and no make-up exams except in the event of a natural disaster or major hospitalization. Then the zinger. "Please do yourself and me a favor. If you are not mature enough to do the work in my course, leave now. Here's a dime (he held it up). Go call your Mommy and tell her there's been a terrible mistake, that you shouldn't have come here, and you need time to rethink whether college is the correct choice for you. Then walk across the campus to the registrar's office and drop this course. That's all. I'll see the rest of you tomorrow." About a third of the students dropped his class within the week. I had no interest in Poli Sci then, but 30+ years later this remains one of my most memorable courses (and professors) in any discipline. That said, I don't suppose Shelby would approve of this teaching method, as it would serve to reduce enrollment.

Date: Jan 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Least Venerable
"I'm paraphrasing but it was something to the effect that he knew most of us were in his class only because we had no other choice if we wished to earn a degree. Many others were there either because they didn't know what else to do with their life, or because their parents wanted them to attend college."

Very funny. I always thought that the introductory remarks on the first day or class had some sort of motivational/pedogogical value, so I sometimes did a similar routine in my honors sections (comprised, of course, of some students who had a history of making mostly "A's" in their previous high school and college classes). I ended the "I know the reasons you enrolled for my course" routine with the line " . . .and others of you have heard that I give only one "A" in this course - and you enrolled because you want the challenge of being the one student to receive that one "A." I had to quickly disabuse them of that notion by the end of the first class period, of course, lest most of them drop the class.

Date: Jan 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Least Venerable
"That said, I don't suppose Shelby would approve of this teaching method, as it would serve to reduce enrollment. "

Well, back in the 'dark ages' when I was a freshman at a private university, the first day of the first class in my major was in a 600-seat auditorium. The professor said, "Look to your left and to your right. By the end of the term, one of you will no longer be here. If you think you're brighter than your neighbors, you may learn something and survive my course."

Then again, in my time in the "student-oriented" USM presided over by Aubrey K., the "top-down" emphasis on "student retention" made it clear the administration's view on "flunking out" large numbers of students.

Date: Jan 6, 2005

Originally posted by: oldtimer

in my time in the "student-oriented" USM presided over by Aubrey K., the "top-down" emphasis on "student retention" made it clear the administration's view on "flunking out" large numbers of students.

How so? Tell us more.

Date: Jan 6, 2005

i think what oldtimer means is that the university didn't want students to flunk out.

Date: Jan 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: First Ant at the Picnic
"Very funny. I always thought that the introductory remarks on the first day or class had some sort of motivational/pedogogical value, so I sometimes did a similar routine in my honors sections (comprised, of course, of some students who had a history of making mostly "A's" in their previous high school and college classes). I ended the "I know the reasons you enrolled for my course" routine with the line " . . .and others of you have heard that I give only one "A" in this course - and you enrolled because you want the challenge of being the one student to receive that one "A." I had to quickly disabuse them of that notion by the end of the first class period, of course, lest most of them drop the class."

FAAP-

Let's remember that we don't "give" grades; rather, students "earn" the grade they receive. When I taught the large gen psych here, I told students I had no restriction on how many A's would be awarded at the end of the semester, and if all 120 earned A's, then 120 A's would be assigned. Then I would show the previous year's grade distribution. Usually about 45% earned Ds or Fs. Many dropped after the first couple of weeks. Never heard a peep from administration about this. Maybe they liked the fact that I would get the retread's tuition money back the next year anyway when they took the repeat. Ah, nothing like repeat business to warm the mercenary heart!

Date: Jan 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"i think what oldtimer means is that the university didn't want students to flunk out."

So that's how the inflation-based "A" is for Good; "B" is for Bad grading philosophy evolved. Quite the opposite of that described by Maggie's Farm.

Date: Jan 6, 2005

i never perceived the lucas administration wanting to lower standards, but some faculty felt that if they were tough in the classroom, the administration would lop off their heads. i felt i could be as rigorous as i wanted to be in the classroom and be supported by the "powers that be."

i also think there's an important distinction between "rigorous standards" and "retention."

Date: Jan 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"i also think there's an important distinction between "rigorous standards" and "retention." "

But when a 3.5 GPA puts our students in the bottom half . . . I wouldn't call that a very "rigorous standard."

Date: Jan 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: Where all the children are above average
"But when a 3.5 GPA puts our students in the bottom half . . . I wouldn't call that a very "rigorous standard.""

That would be a 3.1 for seniors. No need to overstate things.

Date: Jan 6, 2005

i didn't say we had rigorous standards, but i think some think that if we are concerned with retention that we can't have rigorous standards. they aren't mutually exclusive in my mind. since we have so many first generation college students here, they don't have much family support for having to work hard. i had a student years ago who was doing okay in a class of mine, but was having to work hard, and when he or she went home for Thanksgiving, his parents told him he or she ought to quit. wasn't worth the hard work. that's a retention issue to me. i also look at this differently than i did a few years ago since i have two children who have been through the public schools. lots of the attitudes and behaviors we see are ingrained in them in high school. example--extra credit. in high school, they give extra credit away like skittles. the grade grubbers my children were, they did it, even if they had an A in the class. students will come to me at USM and ask about extra credit, and i say there isn't any. i told my children, don't expect it at USM. if you can't successfully complete the work on the required assignments, then expect negative outcomes. (yeah, and i do talk that way sometimes).

Date: Jan 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"i never perceived the lucas administration wanting to lower standards, but some faculty felt that if they were tough in the classroom, the administration would lop off their heads. i felt i could be as rigorous as i wanted to be in the classroom and be supported by the "powers that be."
"

This obviously varies by department. When I taught at USM, I got dumped off of doctoral committees (and my chair did nothing) when I flunked doctoral students for plagiarism or asked a student to turn in a dissertation with minimal typographical errors. There may be departments at USM that uphold academic standards, but mine wasn't one of them.

Date: Jan 6, 2005

chicago manual of style--i agree with you on this one. the stories i could tell you. i expect the graduate reader to have minimal corrections to make with the ones i direct (i don't know the nuances of margins, etc.). but some just dump them on her and expect her to make the corrections.

Date: Jan 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
" i told my children, don't expect it at USM. if you can't successfully complete the work on the required assignments, then expect negative outcomes."

scm, I worry quite a bit about the current events at USM, largely because my child graduated from there. At that time USM was fully accredited so in that sense the degree itself will be protected (i.e., accredited at the time of graduation). But what about parents whose children are currently enrolled? Do you think they have cause to worry? Or is this just a transient problem that will pass unnoticed?

Date: Jan 6, 2005

i'm in the same boat as you--i have two at USM. one to graduate shortly (hopefully) and one just starting. we'll get off probation. don't forget auburn was on it, and they got off.

Date: Jan 6, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"i'm in the same boat as you--i have two at USM. one to graduate shortly (hopefully) and one just starting. we'll get off probation. don't forget auburn was on it, and they got off. "

But their college board seemed to have its head screwed on straight. As far as I can determine, that is a big difference between the two states' system of higher education. The clock is ticking. Already we are going into the second week of the new year.

Date: Jan 6, 2005

BIG GULP. I removed myself at the final stages of at least 2 USM dissertations because I felt that they did not reflect the stated academic mission. I did it to be true to my own beliefs. A couple of years ago, my older daughter graduated from USM with a degree in English and from the Honors College. Knowing her professors and knowing what she gained from her years there, I defy anyone to question the credibiliy of her degree. With that said, the players have changed and reluctantly, so has the ideology. I am very happy that my younger child is attending the University of Oklahoma although I will never discredit the outstanding teaching that my older child received at USM.

Date: Jan 6, 2005

I believe that the code of ethics in some professions specifies that one should not make a referral to someone the referring professional would not go to under similar circumstances. Does our profession (academics) abide by that principle as we make recommendations (referrals) to institutions of higher education? Would you or do you recommend that students attend USM under the current circumstances? Does this present an ethical/moral dilemma? Maybe a philosopher, if any read this message board, could address this question.

Date: Jan 6, 2005

Heck no, go somewhere else, it will probably cost about the same, and there will not be turmoil or uncertainty. SACS may pass, but the underlying reasons for such symptoms as tier drop and SACS will not have. We put a band aid on a too large wound, we will never heal.