If Shelby WERE removed . . . - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Dec 18, 2004

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: If Shelby WERE removed . . .

Date: Dec 18, 2004

Speaking of the IHL and possible new presidents, how does Richard Crofts sound? How has he been as the interim commissioner? He applied for the president job last time. He was on the short list interviewed by the IHL. He is definitely from the outside with experience in how many other places run things. I don’t know too much about the guy and how he has handled himself at the IHL, but he might actually take the job if offered, which is important. Those that were on the advisory committee last time complained because no outstanding candidates applied, just think what the applicant pool would look like if Thames was fired and the Chronicle ad said, “seeking President of university to bring back its accreditation.”

Date: Dec 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: asdf
"Speaking of the IHL and possible new presidents, how does Richard Crofts sound? How has he been as the interim commissioner? He applied for the president job last time. He was on the short list interviewed by the IHL. He is definitely from the outside with experience in how many other places run things. I don’t know too much about the guy and how he has handled himself at the IHL, but he might actually take the job if offered, which is important. Those that were on the advisory committee last time complained because no outstanding candidates applied, just think what the applicant pool would look like if Thames was fired and the Chronicle ad said, “seeking President of university to bring back its accreditation.”"

Yes. Now sooner than later.

Date: Dec 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: ewe
"ewe, I was not suggesting a purge of the college board. Such a clean sweep would probably not go well with SACS who would undoubtedly view such a move as interference. I was just trying to point out that Klumb carries only one vote. He should have been outvoted. Evidently he was not. Unfortunately, Virginia Newton has only one vote. "

Ewe, I think we both agree the entire board is responsible. The experience of history is that if you pull one man out and shoot him you get the attention of the rest of the troops. We have many new members on the board and removing Mr. Klumb would help to focus their attention on solving the problems of higher education in Mississippi, which grow deeper daily at Southern Miss.

Huey

Date: Dec 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Ben "Bugsy" Siegal
"No Problem!"

Now cut that out, Ben!

Date: Dec 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Ghost of the Christmas Past
"How could anybody with any academic acumen fire somebody as capable as Carl Martray? After the things CEP had experienced previously Matray was a guiding light."

Have either the Dean or Associate Dean of the COEP (the Chair and Vice Chair of the Professional Education Council) met the standards and been qualified as Professional Education Faculty?

Date: Dec 18, 2004

HELL NO

Date: Dec 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Ghost of Christmas Present
"Have either the Dean or Associate Dean of the COEP . . . met the standards and been qualified as Professional Education Faculty?"

Whoohhh, Nellie. It shouldn't be necessary for COEP's dean to be qualified as Professional Education Faculty. Education is not the only discipline in that college, you know.

Date: Dec 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: wish I could say who I am
"HELL NO"

Dear wish. Thank you for the cheerful season's greeting. I would not be qualified as PEF as defined in our bylaws at the faculty level. As noted by another poster, this is not a requirement for the position of associate dean, given that we are a College of Education AND Psychology (I am a clinical psychologist). Broadly speaking, PEF involves faculty or graduate assistants who teach professional education classes or are involved in some other aspect of professional education or school personnel training. I do not teach courses in these areas. The Dean and Assistant Dean for Professional Education both have K-12 experience (god bless 'em). The Dean's area is Adult Ed. The Assistant Dean's heart belongs to Special Ed. Both have their academic affiliations in Educational Leadership and Reseach.

Date: Dec 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Mitch
". . . this is not a requirement for the position of associate dean, given that we are a College of Education AND Psychology.

Mitch is 100% right.

Date: Dec 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Gee Haw
"Whoohhh, Nellie. It shouldn't be necessary for COEP's dean to be qualified as Professional Education Faculty. Education is not the only discipline in that college, you know. "

Some other thoughts. Carl was an outstanding Dean. His training was in educational psychology, and was an active member of the Mississippi Psychological Association. Bruce Holliman, an associate Dean in COEP, was a school psychologist. Neither field requires a background in K-12 teaching (though both contribute to K-12 efforts, and some folks who go for these degrees have K-12 teaching experience). I am a licensed psychologist, and my doctorate is in clinical, but I also spent several years as a school psych assistant in Ohio at the master's level conducting LD assessments for IEPs in K-8 students. I have supervised numerous LD assessments over the years (though I defer to child clinical or school psychologists whenever possible now), and have designed behavioral interventions for disruptive classroom behaviors on many occasions. Recent years I have focused exclusively on adult psychopathology. Anyway, that's my background. It seems that inquiring minds want to know.

Date: Dec 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Mitch
"Some other thoughts. Carl was an outstanding Dean. His training was in educational psychology, and was an active member of the Mississippi Psychological Association. Bruce Holliman, an associate Dean in COEP, was a school psychologist. Neither field requires a background in K-12 teaching (though both contribute to K-12 efforts, and some folks who go for these degrees have K-12 teaching experience). I am a licensed psychologist, and my doctorate is in clinical, but I also spent several years as a school psych assistant in Ohio at the master's level conducting LD assessments for IEPs in K-8 students. I have supervised numerous LD assessments over the years (though I defer to child clinical or school psychologists whenever possible now), and have designed behavioral interventions for disruptive classroom behaviors on many occasions. Recent years I have focused exclusively on adult psychopathology. Anyway, that's my background. It seems that inquiring minds want to know. "

And don't forget that the department of psychology supports three (3) APA accredited programs. Mitch is fully conversant with what it takes to retain such accreditation. My guess is that he would also be a tremendous asset in helping to regain full accreditation with SACS.

Date: Dec 18, 2004

USM only has to look west into Louisiana to see the potential problems related to SACs issues. I suggest some check out University of Louisiana at Monroe and Grambling State University. Both have come off of "near death" experiences with SACs in the past few years. Both are public universities. The U of LA system had to spend mega-dollars to repair the damages done by bad administrations at these two universities.

To read that USM is the "first public university in 50 years is not correct." Do some research and get your contacts in the U of L system to give you the scope of the SAC situations at these two nearby universities that most, if not all, know about. Both "lost" presidents. ULM's president is now teaching at S.E. LA in Hammond as part of the system fix to retain SAC accrediation.

Date: Dec 18, 2004

as i said in another thread--Auburn on the west. Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana have become the "bible-belt of SACS accreditation."

Date: Dec 18, 2004

make that "the bible-belt of SACS accreditation problems."

Date: Dec 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"as i said in another thread--Auburn on the west. Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana have become the "bible-belt of SACS accreditation.""

So, I guess we would say that these states have the same SACSual orientation? Oops, guess this belongs on that other thread.

Date: Dec 18, 2004

naw--but i think you're working for an award.

Date: Dec 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: cdn
"And don't forget that the department of psychology supports three (3) APA accredited programs. Mitch is fully conversant with what it takes to retain such accreditation. My guess is that he would also be a tremendous asset in helping to regain full accreditation with SACS. "

Thanks CDN. Sure would be a good time to have folks like you and JoH and JimH and FG around though.

Date: Dec 18, 2004

Okay, Mitch, you are smart and smart enough to be appointed to an area really not related to your field. And, Charles, you've chimed in with a "way to go, Mitch" statement. I am not buying it. Folks, this is an NCATE issue, and if any psychology person thinks for one instance that they'd buy into a person from education weighing into psychology issues - I'd never believe it. Mitch, I happen to like you on a personal basis but you're out of your league! Charles Noblin -- no offense -- but just imagine if an education "expert" overrode what you seem to think. But, hey, psychology - keep on talking. We'll never gain accreditation in ed. this way. BTW, Willie Pierce - you are NO Carl Martray and never will be.

Date: Dec 19, 2004

emma--sorry you feel so hostile. Martray was a nice guy, but he took the credit for getting USM NCATE accreditation when he didn't deserve the credit. the report and the work that got NCATE accreditation was written before he arrived at USM, but he took the credit and much to the dismay of other deans he got a sizeable raise. to be blunt, he could take no credit for the prior NCATE accreditation except for the fact he was the dean of record.

Date: Dec 19, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Emma
"Okay, Mitch, you are smart and smart enough to be appointed to an area really not related to your field. And, Charles, you've chimed in with a "way to go, Mitch" statement. I am not buying it. Folks, this is an NCATE issue, Mitch, I happen to like you on a personal basis but you're out of your league! Charles Noblin -- no offense -- but just imagine if an education "expert" overrode what you seem to think. "

Ummm....I guess I missed something here, but:
(1) what's an NCATE issue?

"and if any psychology person thinks for one instance that they'd buy into a person from education weighing into psychology issues - I'd never believe it."

(2) what about school psychologists?

"But, hey, psychology - keep on talking. We'll never gain accreditation in ed. this way."

(3) huh? what'd we do?

"BTW, Willie Pierce - you are NO Carl Martray and never will be"

(4) and, oh yeah, this is an really good way to have a discussion. . .let's revert back to name calling and denigration again. . .

Date: Dec 19, 2004

emma: So are saying that only ed people should be administers in the college of education and psychology? Why should people with education backgrounds be trusted to help with APA accreditation?

Date: Dec 19, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Gee Haw
"Whoohhh, Nellie. It shouldn't be necessary for COEP's dean to be qualified as Professional Education Faculty. Education is not the only discipline in that college, you know. "

Well, maybe not, but you had better have a good Gee Haw Whimmy Diddle http://familytreetoys.bizhosting.com/gee_haw_whimmy_diddle.html at the ready when the going gets rough.

Date: Dec 19, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Emma
"Okay, Mitch, you are smart and smart enough to be appointed to an area really not related to your field. And, Charles, you've chimed in with a "way to go, Mitch" statement. I am not buying it. Folks, this is an NCATE issue, and if any psychology person thinks for one instance that they'd buy into a person from education weighing into psychology issues - I'd never believe it. Mitch, I happen to like you on a personal basis but you're out of your league! Charles Noblin -- no offense -- but just imagine if an education "expert" overrode what you seem to think. But, hey, psychology - keep on talking. We'll never gain accreditation in ed. this way. BTW, Willie Pierce - you are NO Carl Martray and never will be."

Hi Emma, I am very distressed that you perceived my response to Mitch's posting as in some way inappropriate. I have seen quite a few of your postings on this message board. All of them, without exception, were thoughtful. None of them were frivolous. Your previous postings led me to believe that you are the sort of person I would like to have had as a colleague. Nonetheless, I do feel that my two brief postings on this thread have innocently driven me into some sort of political quagmire, the nature of which I am still unaware. I intend to step out that quagmire, whatever it might be, right here and now. My first brief posting ("Mitch is 100% right") simply indicated my agreement with Mitch: it is not inappropriate for a psychologist to be an associate dean in the college of his discipline. My second posting simply stated two facts and one personal opinion: "...the department of psychology supports three (3) APA accredited programs. Mitch is fully converant with what it takes to retain such accreditation. My guess is that he would also be a tremendous asset in helping to regain full accreditation with SACS." I have mulled over my two postings for over three hours now, but for the life me I can't figure out what could be controverisal about either of them. You mentioned something about "this is an NCATE issue." It's not an NCATE issue with me, Emma. Nothing in either of my postings said anything whatsoever about NCATE. I never even heard the term until I came to USM. I would imagine that the responsiblity for NCATE accreditation rests with the education faculty. I can't imagine a psychologist "weighing in" (your term) on education issues anymore than I can imagine someone in education "weighing in" on psychology issues - except, of course, on a collegial basis. I do want to say one more thing before ending this much-too-long posting. Psychology departments are normally housed in a college of arts and sciences. The dean of such colleges can come from any discipline housed in the college. During my pre- USM experiences in five arts and sciences colleges, I had deans whose academic appointments ranged from chemistry to political science. All of them were marvelous deans, and all were supportive of the discipline of psychology - although they probably knew no more about psychology than is contained in a PSY 101 textbook (if that much). At the previous universities where I served in administrative capacities (e.g., department head, director of doctoral training, clinic director), I actually thought that it would be to our department's disadvantage if we had a psychologist as dean. Within that context, I hope that you can understand why I believe that the specific discipline from which a dean comes is irrelevant. More importantly, I hope that you will view my two brief postings as non- adversarial.

Happy Holidays!

Date: Dec 19, 2004

I've said this before on anther thread. It doesn't matter who did or didn't do what with the SACS reporting. It happened on Shelby's watch, therefore it is HIS responsibility. It is HIS fault. If he can take credit for the good things, he needs to be held responsible for the bad things. Any CEO in a position like this (not reporting to the SEC for example), would be fired in a heart-beat.

NO QUARTER!!!

Date: Dec 19, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Emma
"Okay, Mitch, you are smart and smart enough to be appointed to an area really not related to your field. And, Charles, you've chimed in with a "way to go, Mitch" statement. I am not buying it. Folks, this is an NCATE issue, and if any psychology person thinks for one instance that they'd buy into a person from education weighing into psychology issues - I'd never believe it. Mitch, I happen to like you on a personal basis but you're out of your league! Charles Noblin -- no offense -- but just imagine if an education "expert" overrode what you seem to think. But, hey, psychology - keep on talking. We'll never gain accreditation in ed. this way. BTW, Willie Pierce - you are NO Carl Martray and never will be."

Emma-you are usually dead on target with your posts, but like others have said, I'm a bit confused here. We ARE currently NCATE accredited as a university (the college per se does not earn NCATE accreditation). Also, I am not taking the lead or a major role in NCATE--in fact there is an Assistant Dean for Professional Education in place who started this semester (thank you god) who is charged with NCATE coordination (whether you think so or not, she has the Bona Fides for this). Like CDN, I was not an NCATEer a couple of years ago, but I am now a state BOE for NCATE. Why go through this hassle? To better understand the process we will go through, and to support the people who will be doing it. Finally, and this is important, it would be a disaster to have only people from one department, say, from CISE (our primary K-8 folks), appointed as Dean, Associate Dean, and Assistant Dean. Psychology and our four other departments would certainly feel like they would have a more difficult time of it (we did in the past have a Dean's office that was very unfriendly to Psychology). We are not a College of Education, keep in mind.

The issue of overridding decisions? I am not clear on that one. However, when two or more education folks have disagreed about an issue (say RADAR), I have helped to mediate to help them come to some resolution, and administrative and academic issues more often than not transcend narrow or parochial discipline concerns (that is why the URC, GC, AC and tenure and promotion committees are multidisciplinary). So, is diversity in discipline to be viewed as a sour point in the Dean's office? I hope that is not what you are saying. NCATE certainly would not.

Date: Dec 19, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
Martray was a nice guy, but he took the credit for getting USM NCATE accreditation when he didn't deserve the credit. the report and the work that got NCATE accreditation was written before he arrived at USM, but he took the credit and much to the dismay of other deans he got a sizeable raise. to be blunt, he could take no credit for the prior NCATE accreditation except for the fact he was the dean of record. "

SCM, I could not disagree with you more, having sat on the PEC (prior to Carl it had another name) during the tenures of Schnur, Martray, and now Pierce. When USM was placed on probation by NCATE, we had no real governance policies, no internal program review process, no systematic effort across all teacher training programs to meet standards of professional development, etc. There was a real need to address these issues, and it just happened that NCATE probation served as the impetus. Carl was hired because of his stellar track record with regard to NCATE, and he orchestrated a fine effort that involved many fine professionals across this campus. To insinuate otherwise is way off the mark. In fact it could not be further off the mark. IF you were involved in the process as I WAS, then it is difficult for me to understand how you could have had such a different impression/perception. Ask many across this campus who knew/know Carl and were involved in the previous NCATE visit.

Emma, you may wonder why I sit on the the PEC as a member of the Department of Psychology? Well, my training is in teacher education having served as a middle school teacher, school psychologist in the public schools and consultant to the SDE and to several surrounding school districts. And, I teach one section of our PSY 374 in the spring and summer. I have to say that Willie, Mitch, and Carol have a huge task before them, and there are many who are and will be working very hard to insure that NCATE is not a problem! They have my support!!!

Joe

Date: Dec 19, 2004

i know a member of the writing team. am i not correct--the report was essentially completed before he got on campus?

Date: Dec 19, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"i know a member of the writing team. am i not correct--the report was essentially completed before he got on campus? "

Then I would suggest to you that their perception is off the mark. Many components of our current PEC process were not in existence before Carl Martray and the NCATE probation, therefore could not have been a part of an essentially preexisting report.

Joe

Date: Dec 19, 2004

the bylaws that formed the PEC were written before Carl. had to be. teacher education people had to be pulled together to work as a group. there were some bad attitudes between people in other colleges and those in the college of education that had to be addressed. carl wasn't there for this. he did get the university through the final stages of the process, but a lot of the heavy lifting was done before he got here.

i'm not saying carl wasn't a competent dean. just the opposite. i thought he greatest asset would be to get USM through the next accreditation cycle. it was one of Thames biggest mistakes to fire him.