SACS Summit - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Dec 12, 2004

SACS Summit

Date: Dec 12, 2004

Amy,

How soon do you plan to hold the summit? Before the Christmas Break?

Date: Dec 12, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Amy Young
"
In order to fully understand the problem of our status, I would like to propose a SACS summit and get a room full of people who really know the score, to talk about where we are and what we need to do. What I am asking for is to help put together a list of people who should be in that room. My own opinion is that this should include Drs. Myron Henry, Brad Bond, Aubrey Lucas, Stan Hauer, and especially Gerald Lord if he is our contact. I am sure there are many, many others. Please help me propose a list of people who can meet to assess our situation. I also think it might help if we invite SACS people from other nearby colleges and universities to discuss what they have been doing."

Amy, as per your request for "people to invite" I would propose adding to your list of Myron Henry, Brad Bond, and Dr. Lucas and the others, the three past presidents of Faculty Senate, Graduate Council and Academic Council,

Date: Dec 12, 2004

Most of what I know I read on this board but I have seen nothing posted about those university functions in bennett auditorium where the president convened faculty and staff together at least once each semester and we heard string music or bongo drums followed by the president giving some sort of state-of-the-university address or plaques and recognition to those who had toughed it out for 10 or 20 years. Do those still occur? What are they like now?

Date: Dec 12, 2004

Amy,

You know that I'm not a USM employee but just an alum, so you can take or leave my suggestions & my feelings are not hurt...

I suggest strongly that Dr. Exline be included on your short list. Maybe you meant for it to be understood that she would be included. But if not, bear in mind that Dr. Lord will not come to Hattiesburg for free, nor will he come without official permission from the administration. And Dr. Exline is the person who could arrange all of that.

Also, I think it would probably be very good if every person currently working at USM -- faculty or admin -- that serves or has served as a SACS peer evaluator be invited to such a "summit." I would hope Dr. Exline has already identified these people, but if not, it would be a valuable resource for everyone to know who the in-house experts are.

It is probably a bit premature to suggest this, but USM needs to contract with someone from the SACS Consulting Network. There are a number of fine experts who not only know how to set up basic IE documentation but know how to do it quickly by energizing people, doing it right the first time & explaining everything in simple terms. I wouldn't think of doing an ordinary follow-up without an adviser from the Consulting Network & what USM faces right now is no ordinary follow-up. I am somewhat puzzled that USM didn't do this 2 years ago when the first monitoring report was requested.

Again, just my "external"

...

Date: Dec 12, 2004

Now they are called "Eagle Revelry" and they consist of sports talk with cheerleaders and pompoms - so tacky they make you ashamed to be there.

Date: Dec 12, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Bubbette
"Now they are called "Eagle Revelry" and they consist of sports talk with cheerleaders and pompoms - so tacky they make you ashamed to be there."

Excuse me. This was in response to "East Bound and Down." Invictus sneaked in ahead of me, the little devil.

Date: Dec 12, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Bubbette
"Now they are called "Eagle Revelry" and they consist of sports talk with cheerleaders and pompoms - so tacky they make you ashamed to be there."

Thank you, Bubbette. Now it is I who is laughing so hard that saliva is all over my computer screen.

Date: Dec 12, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Bubbette
"Now they are called "Eagle Revelry" and they consist of sports talk with cheerleaders and pompoms - so tacky they make you ashamed to be there."

Miss Information - Tell your committee take note!

Date: Dec 12, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Green Hornet
" Amy, as per your request for "people to invite" I would propose adding to your list of Myron Henry, Brad Bond, and Dr. Lucas and the others, the three past presidents of Faculty Senate, "

But wasn't Myron Henry one of the three past presidents of FacSen? It would also include Don Cabana, wouldn't it? Oh well, in for a penny, in for a pound.

Are you talking about going back as far as Art Kaul? (His predecesor was the late Jesse Palmer.) FACSEN officers

Date: Dec 12, 2004

When Dr. Lewis took over at Pearl River, he inherited some SACS problems. His solution was to appoint one person to be in charge of SACS accreditation matters. She has done a wonderful job, and should be able to work with Shelby if asked. You may want to include her in the summit. Her name is Becky Askew.

Date: Dec 12, 2004

Invictus has some interesting suggestions. The only way an on-campus visit from the consulting network can happen is by invitation of the president.

Date: Dec 12, 2004

Accreditation? While you are calling for the ouster of the leader, which may be right and necessary, you had also better be asking your immediate boss how you can help him in this process……otherwise you will be labeled as against this place and put on the hit list.

If you expect to be here in a year, you need to help bail out this boat we are all
in. Never mind the captain might claim credit for saving the ship, it matters little
if all go down. The main choices are two.....bail, or jump ship.

Date: Dec 12, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Carnack
"

If you expect to be here in a year, you need to help bail out this boat we are all
in. Never mind the captain might claim credit for saving the ship, it matters little
if all go down. The main choices are two.....bail, or jump ship. "

While it seems that the IHL doesn't care about USM, they don't want it to disappear. USM is a major producer of teachers and nurses for Mississippi. It also serves the entire southern part of the state. To suggest that the faculty must immediately stand up and salute or be unemployed is over the top. The heat is on the IHL. It won't hurt for them to sweat awhile. The faculty can afford to be deliberate in its actions.

Date: Dec 12, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
"Amy,

You know that I'm not a USM employee but just an alum, so you can take or leave my suggestions & my feelings are not hurt...

I suggest strongly that Dr. Exline be included on your short list. Maybe you meant for it to be understood that she would be included. But if not, bear in mind that Dr. Lord will not come to Hattiesburg for free, nor will he come without official permission from the administration. And Dr. Exline is the person who could arrange all of that.

Also, I think it would probably be very good if every person currently working at USM -- faculty or admin -- that serves or has served as a SACS peer evaluator be invited to such a "summit." I would hope Dr. Exline has already identified these people, but if not, it would be a valuable resource for everyone to know who the in-house experts are.

It is probably a bit premature to suggest this, but USM needs to contract with someone from the SACS Consulting Network. There are a number of fine experts who not only know how to set up basic IE documentation but know how to do it quickly by energizing people, doing it right the first time & explaining everything in simple terms. I wouldn't think of doing an ordinary follow-up without an adviser from the Consulting Network & what USM faces right now is no ordinary follow-up. I am somewhat puzzled that USM didn't do this 2 years ago when the first monitoring report was requested.

Again, just my "external" ..."

Invictus,

Thanks for your suggestions. I was actually hoping to have alist of folks to suggest to Joan Exline to arrange this. I don't know if she will go for it or not, but given the spinning by Thames, it would help with credibility as well as with a solution.

I wouldn't think such a summit would be feasible until early next year when we return from winter break.

Date: Dec 12, 2004

Amy,

You have an excellent idea. I suggest you pass it along to Dave Beckett so that Faculty Senate can contribute to this. Since you represent Academic Council, all you need is for the president of Graduate Council on board to have a group that symbolizes that the whole faculty is behind the project and are willing to provide leadership.

Leadership is what the faculty need at this stage.

Date: Dec 12, 2004

amy--your idea is a high reward/high risk strategy. invictus is right about the point that Thames will have to ask the SACS rep to come. Even if he comes, which I doubt, the tone and tenor of the meeting, and any subsequent meetings, will be crucial. People can't expect the SACS rep to say Thames should be fired--it is against SACS policy to say that (it ain't in the manual amy--trust me, i know an associate executive director). I also suspect Lord would say that's the least of USM's worries. SACS people can give stunningly blunt and candid perspectives.

If the meeting is merely a criticism of Thames, then the meeting will fail. SACS looks at this as a 10-year problem. From their perspective, it's not a Thames-era problem alone. SACS felt we were not in compliance in 2002, and that was based on the 1997-2002 time frame. If folks here can't accept that, then don't invite the guy from SACS.

Even without the SACS rep there, if the meeting is one of bashing Thames and his administration, then we're doomed. Some administrators can help and are more than willing to help. Seek them out. There's another person on this campus who was on the '95 writing team. Find out who it is. It might surprise you. Be willing to work with these people even if you are distrustful. This is a time to pull together. But if people can't get past some of the attitudes expressed on this message board, then we might as well list our jobs in the next year as "independent scholars." There won't be a USM. This is the high risk end of the meeting.

My experience with the SACS folks is that they will ask a simple question: what are you interested in? Do you want to keep USM accredited or are you more interested in getting rid of Thames? It may ultimately be an either/or question, so it's a fair one. As far as I'm concerned, anyone on the committee that is more concerned with getting rid of Thames rather than saving USM needs to step off. There are bigger issues to deal with.

Choosing who runs the meeting is critical. He/she can't have an anti-Thames agenda. Saving USM has to be the only agenda they have.

The high reward end of this is that if it works well it may very well pull this university together.

Date: Dec 12, 2004

I would not include Becky Askew; not because she is not extremely qualified, but because she is the individual that Shelby Thames was accused of sexually harassing when he was Executive VP that cost him that position. If I were Ms. Askew, I would be giggling in the wings at the Emperor's current situation and would not be inclined to help him out of the hole he has gotten himself into.

Date: Dec 12, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
" SACS looks at this as a 10-year problem. "

I've been busy and must have missed the article in which a SACS rep said that this is a ten-year problem. Could you please provide a link to substantiate your claim?

Thanks in advance.

Date: Dec 12, 2004

amy--while i'm on my soapbox--where ever this goes i would recommend that all the elected bodies (FS, AC, GC) start having meetings with faculty. And I don't mean saying "our meetings are open." Be proactive. Each council's college delegation ought to start meeting with the faculty in that college independent of the regular meeting. Years ago the faculty senate delegations did that. I've gotten very frustrated to find that I get more information on this board about FS meetings than I do on its website--when's the next time minutes will be posted? my department's FS rep won't talk about issues. Other council's don't archive their minutes. there needs to be a sense that the faculty members on all of these elected bodies start talking with their constiuency.

Date: Dec 12, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"amy--your idea is a high reward/high risk strategy. invictus is right about the point that Thames will have to ask the SACS rep to come. Even if he comes, which I doubt, the tone and tenor of the meeting, and any subsequent meetings, will be crucial. People can't expect the SACS rep to say Thames should be fired--it is against SACS policy to say that (it ain't in the manual amy--trust me, i know an associate executive director). I also suspect Lord would say that's the least of USM's worries. SACS people can give stunningly blunt and candid perspectives. If the meeting is merely a criticism of Thames, then the meeting will fail. SACS looks at this as a 10-year problem. From their perspective, it's not a Thames-era problem alone. SACS felt we were not in compliance in 2002, and that was based on the 1997-2002 time frame. If folks here can't accept that, then don't invite the guy from SACS. Even without the SACS rep there, if the meeting is one of bashing Thames and his administration, then we're doomed. Some administrators can help and are more than willing to help. Seek them out. There's another person on this campus who was on the '95 writing team. Find out who it is. It might surprise you. Be willing to work with these people even if you are distrustful. This is a time to pull together. But if people can't get past some of the attitudes expressed on this message board, then we might as well list our jobs in the next year as "independent scholars." There won't be a USM. This is the high risk end of the meeting. My experience with the SACS folks is that they will ask a simple question: what are you interested in? Do you want to keep USM accredited or are you more interested in getting rid of Thames? It may ultimately be an either/or question, so it's a fair one. As far as I'm concerned, anyone on the committee that is more concerned with getting rid of Thames rather than saving USM needs to step off. There are bigger issues to deal with. Choosing who runs the meeting is critical. He/she can't have an anti-Thames agenda. Saving USM has to be the only agenda they have. The high reward end of this is that if it works well it may very well pull this university together. "

SCM-your analysis is 100% correct, and I hope Amy takes it to heart. Faculty organizations will be critical to the SACS outcome. AAUP and FS and AC and GC can and should play an important role, but this is one of those situations in which hasty decisions and hot rhetoric will not be helpful to the desired outcome.

Date: Dec 12, 2004

there ain't gonna be no such article. every accreditation cycle is 10 years long. we were told in 1995 that we had to address certain issues and a report was due in 2002. i have seen (and have ) a copy of the report. We got in trouble in 2002 because we couldn't show we had done things from 1995-2002. people need to learn about accreditation!!!

Date: Dec 12, 2004

Thanks for clearing that up. So you are saying that nowhere in the press has SACS claimed that this is a ten-year-old problem. That's what I thought.

Thanks.

Date: Dec 12, 2004

Being helpful when your university is in trouble should be an automatic thing to do, no matter whom is boss. Faculty should always try to do what is best for their university. Different people have different ideas of what is best, so FS probably needs to hash out "What is best."

Date: Dec 12, 2004

fire shelby--SACS ain't gonna say in the press it's a 10 year problem. they've said it by putting us on probation. they don't put us on probation for a whim--there were things we were supposed to to from 1995-2002; that is in a written report. When we can't prove that we did what we were supposed to from 1995-2002, we get put on notice, as brad bond's note to Thames indicated. then you get put on probation if you can't show sufficient additional action. you have to understand the accreditation process. it's not press releases. there are rules and if you don't follow them you get dinged.

Date: Dec 12, 2004

toady--quite right. hot rhetoric may be cathartic but won't solve the serious problem we face. and I ain't talking Shelby--it's accreditation.

Date: Dec 12, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"there ain't gonna be no such article. every accreditation cycle is 10 years long. we were told in 1995 that we had to address certain issues and a report was due in 2002. i have seen (and have ) a copy of the report. We got in trouble in 2002 because we couldn't show we had done things from 1995-2002. people need to learn about accreditation!!! "

SCM-I posted my thoughts on other threads about the naivete of how we have approached our accred processes for many years, and how we have gotten behind the eight ball in many of these, including SACS and NCATE. I am waiting until mid week to read the SACS info (when it will supposedly be released), but I suspect that the situation is similar to NCATE--we just waited too long to get our assessment systems up and running, and that we didn't keep up with accred transitions since 1995 (1998 in the case of NCATE). I also suspect that we will have enough good data (three years for SACS and a year for NCATE) to get through these processes just fine when push comes to shove, but god help us if we ever let ourselves get in this position again.

Date: Dec 12, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"there ain't gonna be no such article. every accreditation cycle is 10 years long. we were told in 1995 that we had to address certain issues and a report was due in 2002. i have seen (and have ) a copy of the report. We got in trouble in 2002 because we couldn't show we had done things from 1995-2002. people need to learn about accreditation!!! "

So we were dead in the water in 2002? SACS then waits 2 years to put us on probation? And it's the faculty that should have been inquiring and taking the initiative to fix these problems in the face of an administration that was out preaching economic development and on-line classes?

Date: Dec 12, 2004

Did I incorrectly assume that it is the university president who is responsible for determining the strategies to be used in getting us off of probation?

Date: Dec 12, 2004

we weren't dead in the water in 2002, but we were in deep doo-doo. ask people like Myron Henry what was going on. he was provost during part of the time. brad bond was empowered to try and get us out of this--i feel like he was dealt a losing hand, but tried to do the best he could. couldn't pull it off. but we need to figure out what to do about this NOW. if not, we'll be asking "do you want fries with that burger?" this is serious business folks. it's a wake up call.