Compensation based on discipline or on merit? - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Dec 5, 2004

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Compensation based on discipli

Date: Dec 5, 2004

RE: Compensation based on discipline or on merit?

Date: Dec 5, 2004

This statement appearing on the current WDAM website puts a different wrinkle on the Governor's proposal - "Thursday night Gov. Haley Barbour announced his education plan, which includes financial rewards for teachers and staff who demonstrate a high rate of gain in student performance." I have also heard something about the plan rewarding teachers if the entire school's scores are high.

If this means that standardized test score performance is the determining factor I hope that the teachers do not try to teach the test.

I also hope it does not discourage superior teachers from taking jobs at schools with disadvantaged populations.

Date: Dec 5, 2004

The WDAM item also said "Teachers may get pay raises according to their school's performance."

Date: Dec 5, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: late night viewer
"The WDAM item also said "Teachers may get pay raises according to their school's performance.""

Wowie Zowie! Let us pray the IHL does not adopt that system. That would be bad news. The good news is that given the tier 4 designation we've got nowhere to go but up.

Date: Dec 6, 2004

Mitch said: "It is true that children in the US and MS are underperforming in math and science, and this becomes particularly clear at the HS level."

These students can also barely read and write, a more fundamental issue and one that is better addressed by the non-profit-generating disciplines of history, English, and so on. But the Barbournator probably prefers uninformed citizens so he and those like him can continue to get elected to office.

Date: Dec 6, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Angeline
"These students can also barely read and write, a more fundamental issue and one that is better addressed by the non-profit-generating disciplines of history, English, and so on."

The entering USM students, for the most part, are every bit as deficient in writing skills as they are in math. Writing skills are not as non-profiting generating as they might appear on the surface. Such skills are far more important in law school admissions than are math skills. If one had to choose between having only reading and writing skills vs. having only math skills, reading and writing skills would win without question.

Date: Dec 6, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Road Skill
"If one had to choose between having only reading and writing skills vs. having only math skills, reading and writing skills would win without question."

Reading/writing skills are far more essential to mere survival than are math skills.

Date: Dec 6, 2004

RE: RE: RE: RE: Compensation based on discipline o

Date: Dec 6, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Naively dreaming
" But of course, we'd really like them to have both reading and writing, AND math skills."

Precisely. Mine was only a hypothetical case designed to make a point. Reading and writing seem to be getting the back of the hand here. I just wanted to make the point that reading and writing are essential survival skills cf. mathematics.

Date: Dec 6, 2004

RE: RE: Compensation based on discipline or on merit?

Date: Dec 6, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Mitch
"Angeline-agree 100% about the importance of reading and writing, but also mathematics AND science AND art AND music AND history AND physical education AND foreign languages AND all the other things that students should learn by HS. In DaVinci's day, and until the 20th century, science and math weren't direct for-profit endeavors. But the products of science, math, and language arts did produce large economic gains and political changes; for example, the sextant or printing press. The sciences and math involved new and creative ways to view the world and universe that were inextricably tied to art, philosophy, religion, and literature. It's a shame that the modern view seems to be that people in different disciplines now get categorized into one type of scholar versus another. Getting sucked into a debate about the relative merits of math versus English education is a losing proposition for all of us in the academy. The bar needs to raised across the board, and students need a comprehensive and integrative educational experience--which is easy to lose sight of. "

And exactly the kind of divisive debate encouraged by the dome to keep faculty engaged in non-threatening activities...

Date: Dec 6, 2004

RE: RE: RE: Compensation based on discipline or on

Date: Dec 6, 2004

RE: RE: RE: RE: Compensation based on discipline or on merit?

Date: Dec 6, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Busy Work
"And exactly the kind of divisive debate encouraged by the dome to keep faculty engaged in non-threatening activities..."

Excuse me please, but it was Haley Barbour's Education Reform Act - not the discussants on this message board - that proposed a preferential treatment of science and mathematics teachers in the high schools. This thread began with the premise that high school teachers in all disciplines are equally important regardless of whether they teach in the humanities, social sciences, biological and physical sciences, or mathematics.

Date: Dec 6, 2004

While agreeing that all high school teachers are underpaid, I would point out that the licensure programs in physics and chemistry are producing almost no graduates. It is very simply a market issue. Undergraduates in these disciplines don't see teaching at the secondary school level as an occupation worthy of pursuit when they can do other things. I doubt it is any harder to teach physics at the high school level than it is english or accounting.

Date: Dec 6, 2004

I think you've hit the nail on the head, COST faculty. I think the general decline in public education is in part related to the fact that the smartest women no longer think of teaching as a first choice. Women who grew up in the thirties and forties, who were able to go college, became teachers. Now other doors are open (and I wouldn't advocate that we go back!) but everything has unintended consequences.

Date: Dec 7, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Chicken Soup Lady
"I think you've hit the nail on the head, COST faculty. I think the general decline in public education is in part related to the fact that the smartest women no longer think of teaching as a first choice. Women who grew up in the thirties and forties, who were able to go college, became teachers. Now other doors are open (and I wouldn't advocate that we go back!) but everything has unintended consequences."

Chicken Soup Lady, do you think the decline in public education is because there are alternative opportunities for women, or because the public education system itself has changed (e.g., it has been forced to succumb to many forces such as parental groups, governmental groups, societal groups). In one sense the teaching profession has been stripped of much that made teaching a profession of choice for the smartest. Whatever they did seemed to work very well. I have often thought that somebody should interview the great public school teachers of that era in order to try to determine what they were doing right and why it worked so well. At least their formal opinions should be recorded for posterity. We might be able to learn much from that. It would be largely anecdotal, but wouldn't it make a great book?

Date: Dec 7, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Scientist
"While I'm at it, let me ask when and where the terms "hard" and "soft" originated and why . . "

This doesn't answer your when & where question but it does show that use of the term is nationwide. This article is particularly appropriate for posting here. Their new president characterizes MIT's emphasis on the "hard" sciences as a historical shadow -

MIT President Promoting Life Sciences
December 07, 2004 5:43 AM PST

CAMBRIDGE, Mass. - MIT is known for its strengths in physics, chemistry and engineering. But the school's new president wants the life sciences to get equal billing and draw greater strength from collaboration between different disciplines.

In an interview on her first day on the job, Susan Hockfield said the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's reputation in fields like biology is slowly emerging from the shadow of the school's historical emphasis on the so-called "hard sciences."

Date: Dec 7, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Chicken Soup Lady
"I think you've hit the nail on the head, COST faculty. I think the general decline in public education is in part related to the fact that the smartest women no longer think of teaching as a first choice. Women who grew up in the thirties and forties, who were able to go college, became teachers. Now other doors are open (and I wouldn't advocate that we go back!) but everything has unintended consequences."

Unfortunately, professions that are or become "feminine" typically then become underpaid.
It happened in librarianship, which was historically a reasonably well-paid profession for men. When women were encouraged to enter the profession, salaries (and status) dropped.

Date: Dec 7, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: foot soldier
" Unfortunately, professions that are or become "feminine" typically then become underpaid. It happened in librarianship, which was historically a reasonably well-paid profession for men. When women were encouraged to enter the profession, salaries (and status) dropped."

Nursing salaries seem to have gone up. Do you believe that is because of supply-demand or because more males have entered that profession? Or for some other reason.

Date: Dec 7, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: COST faculty
"While agreeing that all high school teachers are underpaid, I would point out that the licensure programs in physics and chemistry are producing almost no graduates. It is very simply a market issue. Undergraduates in these disciplines don't see teaching at the secondary school level as an occupation worthy of pursuit when they can do other things. I doubt it is any harder to teach physics at the high school level than it is english or accounting."

This article was also in today's Hattiesburg American.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/12/07/math.skills.ap/index.html

U.S. students lagging behind in math

Tuesday, December 7, 2004 Posted: 1:17 PM EST (1817 GMT)

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Compared with their peers in Europe, Asia and elsewhere, U.S. 15-year-olds are below average when it comes to applying math skills to real-life tasks, new test scores show.

The U.S. students were behind most other countries in overall math literacy and in every specific area tested in 2003, from geometry and algebra to statistics and computation.

Date: Dec 7, 2004

Yes, but U.S. students are very high in self esteem, and they get good grades.

/sarcasm/

Date: Dec 7, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Mitch
"The sciences and math involved new and creative ways to view the world and universe that were inextricably tied to art, philosophy, religion, and literature. It's a shame that the modern view seems to be that people in different disciplines now get categorized into one type of scholar versus another."

Mitch, I thought this thread was dead until I spotted Scientists' new posting a moment ago. I don't mean to prolong the discussion, but I do want to say that I totally agree with your statement about the sciences and math being inextricably tied to art, phillosophy, religion, and literature; and lamenting the fact that different disciplines now get categorized into one type of scholar versus another. A day or so ago I received a rather interesting academic position announcement on the APA's History of Psychology listserv. . . it describes a position designed to integrate the sciences and the humanities. It is in line with the topic of this thread, and it relates directly to what you posted, so I thought it would be appropriate to reproduce it here:

Hampshire College, an independent, innovative liberal arts institution and member of the Five College consortium, is accepting applications for an assistant professor with interests in the integration of the sciences and the humanities. The ideal candidate will have expertise and a record of accomplishment both in an area of the humanities and in a scientific discipline, and will develop a program of teaching and research at the intersection of these areas of expertise. The successful candidate will be expected either to conduct scientific research that is specifically informed by the humanities, or to produce scholarly work in the humanities that is specifically informed by contemporary science. All areas of science are of potential interest, as are all areas of the humanities.

The following possibilities are presented only as examples: (1) A philosopher of science with expertise in neuroscience, interested in the impact of recent discoveries about the brain on questions of human nature; (2) A cosmologist with expertise in world religions, interested in the human dimensions of discoveries about the origins and fate of the universe; (3) A microbiologist with expertise in ethical theory, interested in society's role in the control of cloning research and technology; (4) A science historian with expertise in
quantum mechanics, interested in ways in which the art of experimental design
can be improved in the physical sciences.

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