Sweet Pepper's Deli - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Nov 7, 2004

RE: RE: RE: Sweet Pepper's Deli

Date: Nov 8, 2004

The USM bond issue is actually not about bonds; it's about the inferiority complex that many USM alumni and supporters feel when faced with their university's complete and total failure to build a "university community" or to actually compete with other universities in the region for prestige.

If you were to go to Oxford, Starkville, Baton Rouge, Auburn, Athens, Tuscaloosa, etc., etc., you will find universities that have become so important in the lives of their students that the students themselves CHOOSE to remain on campus on weekends, during short holiday breaks, and during the summer. These universities provide support for their students -- they schedule concerts with REGULARITY, publicize campus events (like theater, dance, and music performances) WIDELY, support every facet of their institutions with RIGOR (unlike the rigor mortis found in Hattiesburg), and build ties to the host community that make the university an indispensible part of the "university community."

Why do some feel such a strong tie to their alma mater? Perhaps it's because that university provided them with a lifetime of GOOD memories and helped them become who they are now. It is that type of contribution that makes one loyal to a school. Flagship southern schools do enjoy an almost ivy league-esque devotion from their graduates for just these reasons. Why do USM students flee the Hattiesburg campus in droves as soon as humanly possible? Because there is no "campus life." For the non-greek, non-athlete, non-residence hall student, USM is a wasteland. Those students would rather drive home to Purvis, Petal, Collins, Wiggins, etc., so that they can enjoy what students at Ole Miss and State are enjoying at this very moment -- a sense of family and friends. Students at those other schools build close friendships by experiencing things together; you cannot experience things together if you're not ever together. I can tell you from my undergraduate days at an undisclosed state school that I made more friends and had more fun during one year of undergrad than I can ever imagine anyone having in a 10-year span at USM. Joe College Student looks around on Thursday to find that all of his friends have gone (as usual) to their respective local hometowns. If, by some miracle, JCS and friends do stay in town during the weekend, they have a choice of about three things to do: get drunk, drive around, or get drunk and drive around.

It doesn't help matters that USM has whored itself out to ESPN in order to play those Thursday night games. What a sense of community those build! Everybody can just take off from work/school on Fridays after a long night at "the Rock," can't they? Now we have make-up classes on Fridays after a Thursday night ballgame; message: we care more about convenience to the football program than we do the convenience to our other 14,900 students (especially the non-traditional students who may only have Friday nights to schedule regular activities their families after a long week of work and night classes). No sense of belonging, no sense of community, no sense of what it takes to be a real "world-class" university.

The bond issue was the savior of USM, though. It would fund all those essential projects, improve USM, and make Hattiesburg look good in the process. However, many in Hattiesburg saw the bond issue for what it was: a big-time scam at taxpayers' expense. Supporters say that the burden would be bourne by visitors. How many visitors actually spend the night in Hattiesburg for a football game? My guess: very few. You can get almost anywhere in the state in 2 hours of driving, so why spend the cash for a room when you can go home to your own bed (and you get to avoid that nasty lodging tax).

Based on Seeker's numbers, the "high revenue" activities (that is, those activities that draw "many" visitors to Hattiesburg, i.e., football, baseball, men's basketball, and, for good measure (and charity) 50 dates in Bennett auditorium, plus 3 graduation days per year) yields a number of "high revenue" days equal to 109. That's approximately 109 days a year we can count on having a large number of visitors due to USM activities. What that also means is that we could have counted on 256 days where the citizens of Hattiesburg would have bourne the burden of this tax ALL BY THEMSELVES. No wonder a vast majority of voters nixed the plan. It was an unfair burden to residents, almost none of whom would ever see any direct benefit from the renovations/expansions. Better roads? They can see that benefit. Better elementary, middle, and high schools? They can see that benefit as well. But better national prestige via TV coverage on our five Thursday night games next year? That's a dubious benefit at best.

But we need better facilities, supporters of the bond issue cried! We're too far behind everybody else! (NOTE: I don't need the Wind Talkers program to translate that.) How will we ever compete? How will we remain world class? (HINT: USM isn't "world-class" right now.)

What has happened here is the vanity of attempting to build a university through an athletic program. We've seen it happen at UNLV. Average school decides that Sport X is its ticket to being "world-class." Average school funnels money into Sport X. Sport X becomes very good, then falls from grace. Average school's reputation now downgraded to below average (NOTE: below average is definitely NOT "world-class"). When will people learn that the athletics program is a part of the university, not the other way around? If the IHL were faced with (a) shutting down the USM football program OR (b) shutting down USM, which do you think they would choose? Could the Golden Hawkeyes, er, Eagles continue without a university? Could the university continue without the football program?

No sense of belonging, no sense of community, no sense of what it takes to be a real "world-class" university, and no character to counterbalance the "no sense."

Date: Nov 8, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Bettie, Bettie, Where Can You Be?
"The USM bond issue is actually not about bonds; it's about the inferiority complex that many USM alumni and supporters feel when faced with their university's complete and total failure to build a "university community" or to actually compete with other universities in the region for prestige. If you were to go to Oxford, Starkville, Baton Rouge, Auburn, Athens, Tuscaloosa, etc., etc., you will find universities that have become so important in the lives of their students that the students themselves CHOOSE to remain on campus on weekends, during short holiday breaks, and during the summer. These universities provide support for their students -- they schedule concerts with REGULARITY, publicize campus events (like theater, dance, and music performances) WIDELY, support every facet of their institutions with RIGOR (unlike the rigor mortis found in Hattiesburg), and build ties to the host community that make the university an indispensible part of the "university community." Why do some feel such a strong tie to their alma mater? Perhaps it's because that university provided them with a lifetime of GOOD memories and helped them become who they are now. It is that type of contribution that makes one loyal to a school. Flagship southern schools do enjoy an almost ivy league-esque devotion from their graduates for just these reasons. Why do USM students flee the Hattiesburg campus in droves as soon as humanly possible? Because there is no "campus life." For the non-greek, non-athlete, non-residence hall student, USM is a wasteland. Those students would rather drive home to Purvis, Petal, Collins, Wiggins, etc., so that they can enjoy what students at Ole Miss and State are enjoying at this very moment -- a sense of family and friends. Students at those other schools build close friendships by experiencing things together; you cannot experience things together if you're not ever together. I can tell you from my undergraduate days at an undisclosed state school that I made more friends and had more fun during one year of undergrad than I can ever imagine anyone having in a 10-year span at USM. Joe College Student looks around on Thursday to find that all of his friends have gone (as usual) to their respective local hometowns. If, by some miracle, JCS and friends do stay in town during the weekend, they have a choice of about three things to do: get drunk, drive around, or get drunk and drive around. It doesn't help matters that USM has whored itself out to ESPN in order to play those Thursday night games. What a sense of community those build! Everybody can just take off from work/school on Fridays after a long night at "the Rock," can't they? Now we have make-up classes on Fridays after a Thursday night ballgame; message: we care more about convenience to the football program than we do the convenience to our other 14,900 students (especially the non-traditional students who may only have Friday nights to schedule regular activities their families after a long week of work and night classes). No sense of belonging, no sense of community, no sense of what it takes to be a real "world-class" university. The bond issue was the savior of USM, though. It would fund all those essential projects, improve USM, and make Hattiesburg look good in the process. However, many in Hattiesburg saw the bond issue for what it was: a big-time scam at taxpayers' expense. Supporters say that the burden would be bourne by visitors. How many visitors actually spend the night in Hattiesburg for a football game? My guess: very few. You can get almost anywhere in the state in 2 hours of driving, so why spend the cash for a room when you can go home to your own bed (and you get to avoid that nasty lodging tax). Based on Seeker's numbers, the "high revenue" activities (that is, those activities that draw "many" visitors to Hattiesburg, i.e., football, baseball, men's basketball, and, for good measure (and charity) 50 dates in Bennett auditorium, plus 3 graduation days per year) yields a number of "high revenue" days equal to 109. That's approximately 109 days a year we can count on having a large number of visitors due to USM activities. What that also means is that we could have counted on 256 days where the citizens of Hattiesburg would have bourne the burden of this tax ALL BY THEMSELVES. No wonder a vast majority of voters nixed the plan. It was an unfair burden to residents, almost none of whom would ever see any direct benefit from the renovations/expansions. Better roads? They can see that benefit. Better elementary, middle, and high schools? They can see that benefit as well. But better national prestige via TV coverage on our five Thursday night games next year? That's a dubious benefit at best. But we need better facilities, supporters of the bond issue cried! We're too far behind everybody else! (NOTE: I don't need the Wind Talkers program to translate that.) How will we ever compete? How will we remain world class? (HINT: USM isn't "world-class" right now.) What has happened here is the vanity of attempting to build a university through an athletic program. We've seen it happen at UNLV. Average school decides that Sport X is its ticket to being "world-class." Average school funnels money into Sport X. Sport X becomes very good, then falls from grace. Average school's reputation now downgraded to below average (NOTE: below average is definitely NOT "world-class"). When will people learn that the athletics program is a part of the university, not the other way around? If the IHL were faced with (a) shutting down the USM football program OR (b) shutting down USM, which do you think they would choose? Could the Golden Hawkeyes, er, Eagles continue without a university? Could the university continue without the football program? No sense of belonging, no sense of community, no sense of what it takes to be a real "world-class" university, and no character to counterbalance the "no sense.""

Betty B WCYB, what you say is irrefutable. Your post is a classic. My head is stil spinning from reading it. I am going to print it out, frame it, and read it whenever I have difficulty understanding the inappropriate and unorthodox events which appear to be occurring with increasing frequency at USM.

Date: Nov 8, 2004

There is a sense of inferiority that pervades USM, no doubt. I honestly think the community of Hattiesburg knows this, and simply doesn't buy into the "build it and they will come" mentality of the admin. and athletic community. Although they smile in public and say nice things in the paper, they could really care less about USM. And sadly, these are the ALUMNI!

As much as I hate to admit it, when it comes to fitting into a campus, a tradition, and a university, so far I've enjoyed my half-semester at the University of Texas more than my four years at USM combined.

What is the answer? I don't know, but nothing perpetuates that inferiority complex more than the constant laughing stock of backwoods, nepotistic administrators slapping each other's backs and getting rich off "world-class economic development."

Date: Nov 8, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Longhorn/Golden Eagle
"There is a sense of inferiority that pervades USM, no doubt.

"

I would imagine that USM's sense of inferiority is a rational response to actual conditions at the school. It is inferior.

Date: Nov 9, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Bettie, Bettie, Where Can You Be?
"
If you were to go to Oxford, Starkville, Baton Rouge, Auburn, Athens, Tuscaloosa, etc., etc., you will find universities that have become so important in the lives of their students that the students themselves CHOOSE to remain on campus on weekends, during short holiday breaks, and during the summer. These universities provide support for their students -- they schedule concerts with REGULARITY, publicize campus events (like theater, dance, and music performances) WIDELY, support every facet of their institutions with RIGOR (unlike the rigor mortis found in Hattiesburg), and build ties to the host community that make the university an indispensible part of the "university community."
"

You have some valid points, but I think this shows an ignorance of what USM DOES have. It has outstanding theater, dance, and music performances. There ARE regular concerts and cultural events on the USM campus. The arts are one of USM's great strengths. Whether or not the wider community or the students appreciate these offerings is another question. But arts are NOT lacking on the USM campus.

Date: Nov 9, 2004

But perhaps you meant the University isn't publicizing what it DOES have? Or providing adequate support for it? Maybe people on the board involved in the arts at USM can address whether or not this is the case. I do think it is rather apparent that the current administration thinks that the university is about money, not learning, art or culture.

Date: Nov 9, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: foot soldier
"But perhaps you meant the University isn't publicizing what it DOES have? Or providing adequate support for it? Maybe people on the board involved in the arts at USM can address whether or not this is the case. I do think it is rather apparent that the current administration thinks that the university is about money, not learning, art or culture."

I don't think Longhorn/Golden Eagle was saying USM does not have an array of such programs. I think he/she might have been suggesting that the students, for the most part, do not avail themselves of the opportunities afforded here. The campus is virtually empty on weekends. A very large number of students attend class (sometimes) and then disappear. There is not the sense of "community" such as is found on other campuses.

Date: Nov 9, 2004

part of what people are describing (students leaving on weekends) is due as much to our large number of jc transfers. they are as loyal to their jc as USM. Ole Miss and State on the other hand get a much larger number of freshmen whose loyalty they can develop over 4 years instead of 2.

Date: Nov 9, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: stinky cheese man
"part of what people are describing (students leaving on weekends) is due as much to our large number of jc transfers. they are as loyal to their jc as USM. Ole Miss and State on the other hand get a much larger number of freshmen whose loyalty they can develop over 4 years instead of 2."

What whatever reason, things are qualitatively different on the USM campus than on any campus I have ever been.

Date: Nov 9, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: qwerty
"

I would imagine that USM's sense of inferiority is a rational response to actual conditions at the school. It is inferior. "

That is precisely why small pockets of excellence like English, nursing, and music have meant so much to faculty and students in the past. Take that away, and we are a big Delta State.

Date: Nov 9, 2004

foot soldier,

I did not mean to imply that USM has no arts activities; rather, USM is ineffective at "getting out the vote," so to speak when it comes to attendance. While attendance at the programs I have personally witnessed was good, the crowd was almost totally students--virtually no representation from the community.

As a young person growing up in the South, I remember USM's great reputation for the arts. If one wanted to become a music major, they didn't go to State or Ole Miss, they came to USM. That was all abandoned when the decision was made to become "Polymer U." USM could have been the arts center for the South, eclipsing any and all "liberal arts" institutions while maintaining quality programs in business, science, education, etc. When polymers took over, quality faded from our flagship as well as our other programs. Polymer is king, but, to turn a phrase, the king has no clothes and no subjects to rule.

By the way, what I was trying to say is that USM doesn't have is a very vibrant "music scene." I believe that only two or three bars schedule bands with any regularity; the Hippo and Mugshots are generally the only non-dance club nighttime entertainment (apologies to Sports Rock and the Library) sources. Even then, the Hippo focuses on original music (most of which is very good), leaving Mugshots as the only source of "popular" music for the mainstream crowd; USM students are mostly mainstream.

I guess my point is that there is little activity to entice students to hang around, USM does a poor job of publicizing what it has, and nobody at the administrative level seems to care.

Add onto that the extant inferiority complex, and you've got a recipe for the largest JUCO in the world.

Date: Nov 9, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Bettie, Bettie WCYB
"foot soldier,
USM does a poor job of publicizing what it has, and nobody at the administrative level seems to care.
"

I certainly agree about this one. USM's arts are the best kept secret in the region. No one I know in my discipline has ever heard of the school, much less knows about the quality of the arts programs there. And Shelby's folding the "College of the Arts" into "Arts and Letters" shows he does not care about the visibility of the these programs--he made them even more invisible.

Date: Nov 10, 2004

Hey, I'll be in Hburg around mid Feb. Where is this place? I think I and my friends might want to go to lunch there.

Date: Nov 10, 2004

just across weathersby road from Lowes.

Date: Nov 10, 2004

Thanks for the directions! Appreciate it.

Date: Nov 10, 2004

Seeker
I do not recall any Richmond Spider decorations at the Fan Grill or the Bamboo Cafe. Indeed, the Spiders are less important in Richmond than VCU, and on the state scene, Tech and the Wahoos are the only games in town.

Date: Nov 15, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Cossack
"Seeker I do not recall any Richmond Spider decorations at the Fan Grill or the Bamboo Cafe. Indeed, the Spiders are less important in Richmond than VCU, and on the state scene, Tech and the Wahoos are the only games in town."

Right on, Cossack. The University of Richmond is highly regarded by the community, but football is placed in proper perspective at that institution where academics is paramount. Seeker, Virginia Commonwealth University doesn't even have football. They don't need it. They do very well without it, thank you. The other two schools you mention, Cossack, are both in the top 20 this week in football, but they make no attempt to bully their respective communities.

Date: Nov 19, 2004

"Yes Bully I said hatred. There is a great deal of hatred in college athletics at many, many institutions. I suggest that the next time you descend from your Ivory Tower, you take in a football game, and not at Southern Miss, where there is little bad behavior between fans of opposing teams. I suggest you go to an Auburn v Alabama game, or a Miami v Florida game, or perhaps a Texas vs. Texas A&M game. Another you could consider would be Clemson v USC, or perhaps UNC vs. NCST. Attend these games and you will see the hatred that college fans have for the opposing teams."

Yesterday was the 5th anniversary of the fall of Bonfire at Texas A&M. There is certainly still a strong rivalry between Texas and TAMU, but there is also now a greater understanding that football is a game and there are much more important things in life. KBTX is the local TV station. They have streaming video about the memorial. It includes a lot of the events that occurred right after the tragedy. Students from 2 great universities in Texas came together in common shock and grief. UT students found an appreciation of the traditions that bind Aggies into the world's biggest fraternity. Whether there was true hatred before I don't know. But I am pretty sure that those who shared the emotional storm of that week will never be the same.

Date: Nov 30, 2004

so i'm an insider at the spd, and i can tell you that the owner opposed the bond issue not because of his hatred for usm (as some might have you believe), but because it was a tax on hotels and restaurants. The owner actually stongly supports usm. 95 percent of his employees are usm students. So boycotting pepper's is actually hurting usm students more directly than voting or not voting for a tax. i realize i'm alittle late in this conversation but maybe someone will stumble back across it.

Date: Nov 30, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: cmc
"so i'm an insider at the spd, and i can tell you that the owner opposed the bond issue not because of his hatred for usm (as some might have you believe), but because it was a tax on hotels and restaurants. The owner actually stongly supports usm. 95 percent of his employees are usm students. So boycotting pepper's is actually hurting usm students more directly than voting or not voting for a tax. i realize i'm alittle late in this conversation but maybe someone will stumble back across it."

My understanding is that it was the Restaurant Association than was opposed the tax - not any restaurant owner in particular. I can sure understand the Assocation's position. I would have opposed such a tax also if I owned a restaurant in Hattiesburg - any restaurant. The opposition would be a business decision only - with absolutely nothing to do with USM. Surely the SGA or any other group of students are not boycotting Sweet Pepper's Deli, are they? If they boycott that establishment they might as well boycott any and all eating establishments affiliated with the Restaurant Association. That would sure limit their choice when eating out. But I suppose they could remain on campus and eat at Seymours.