New Idea.... - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Aug 17, 2004

New Idea....

Date: Aug 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Ideabot
"I suggest everyone put Doty as a coauthor on their next manuscript. Let's see what he does."

There was a time when department chairs at some medical schools encouraged (insisted?) that their names be on all articles produced by the faculty members. I believe that practice went down the tubes long ago. If you take a look at some of the medical journals, note the very lengthy string of authors on many of the articles.

Date: Aug 17, 2004

One professor in one dept. at USM actually includes a statement on his/her syllabus that any work that was begun or developed in his/her class must include the prof's name if it is published or presented at a conference.

The syllabus was open to the public. I have a copy of it.

Date: Aug 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: 7th Author
"There was a time when department chairs at some medical schools encouraged (insisted?) that their names be on all articles produced by the faculty members. I believe that practice went down the tubes long ago. If you take a look at some of the medical journals, note the very lengthy string of authors on many of the articles. "

This still happens in some departments. Because NIH wants to see interdisciplinary research, you will often see chairs hire different professors with varying expertise so that in essence the department becomes a "super lab" that can do some of everything. These professors then collaborate in papers, grants, etc. In medical schools where research productivity is everything, this can really help. If each professor only wrote 1 paper each year but is a collaborator with all of the other professors, then s/he might have 6 or more pubs each year. Also works well with grants since everyone is doing the similar research with a common thread then grant money just goes into a departmental pool for everyone to benefit. In this case you would see the department chair as the last author on the papers as the senior author, which is often more important than the first author (after all the first author is usually just a grad student or a post-doc

). Not saying that everyone does this, but I have seen this model in several departments at three different medical schools.

Date: Aug 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: educator
"One professor in one dept. at USM actually includes a statement on his/her syllabus that any work that was begun or developed in his/her class must include the prof's name if it is published or presented at a conference. The syllabus was open to the public. I have a copy of it."

educator - I can't imagine what department you might be talking about, but I am certain it is not Psychology. The American Psychological Association, whose code of ethics governs publication authorship credit for psychologists, has some very clear and specific guidelines. For instance, authorship is based on the extent of contribution to the project. Also, the student, not the dissertation director, is the lst author on the article when the dissertation is published. Any exceptions are spelled out in the APA guidelines.

Date: Aug 17, 2004

I'm sure you would not be surprised to learn that SFT has his name on many pubs for which he hasn't written a single word.

Date: Aug 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Charles D. Noblin
"educator - I can't imagine what department you might be talking about, but I am certain it is not Psychology. The American Psychological Association, whose code of ethics governs publication authorship credit for psychologists, has some very clear and specific guidelines. For instance, authorship is based on the extent of contribution to the project. Also, the student, not the dissertation director, is the lst author on the article when the dissertation is published. Any exceptions are spelled out in the APA guidelines. "

Charlie! Dr. Noblin was the former chair of psychology at USM, and had a distinguished career at Rutgers and Virginia Tech, among others, before coming to USM. He retired several years ago, and is very much miissed. Dr. Noblin is one of the few faculty I know to have had a publication in Science. He is a man of the highest intergrity, and for years taught our Ethics course.

Charles and I both worked in medical schools. The model isn't so much that the chair is on all papers. Rather, the head of the laboratory in which the research is generated is often last author. Thus, first and last author often (but not always) make the greatest contributions in multi-author papers in Medicus Index format papers. However, one of my mentors, who was an MD ("minus dissertation" we used to tease affectionately) decided that first and second authorship wasn't so bad, after hanging around with us psychologists.

Date: Aug 17, 2004

Mitch, can you answer a couple of questions? First, did administrators from the level of chair to dean get raises (other than the $400) this time? Second, in your college were the people who got mid-year raises this year excluded from the raise pool this summer (beyond the $400), or did they also get raises?

Date: Aug 17, 2004

It would be inappropriate to provide specific information about personnel issues on this site. However, the raise plan was recently disseminated to the entire college. Thus, the following information is very public and transparent. In brief, people who received raises mid year from one source or another were not excluded from the raise pool (I am excluding the $400 in this discussion). However, the raise amount based on the chair's merit rankings was adjusted in proportion to the amount of the mid year raise. The Dean's office did not "reduce" raise recommendations from the chairs. Indiviudals who received new contracts mid year (e.g., the Dean and Associate Dean) were not eligible for the raise pool (but did receive the $400). "Market value" discrepancy adjustments were also included in the equation, based on average college salary at rank and proportion of that due to "compression." Feedback was sought from the FS President (among others) before implementation. CVs and two years of chair evals were examined to estimate if the chairs were calibrating rankings similarly. Numerous permutations with various constants and weightings were empirically tested. Was the system perfect? Of course not. The impact needs to be examined before the next raise round to determine if a better system can be devised.

Although a good start, several years of meaningful raises will be necessary to attain equity with similar institutions--from the assistant prof to the full prof. Our people have earned the right to a fair and equitable wage.

Date: Aug 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Charles D. Noblin
"educator - I can't imagine what department you might be talking about, but I am certain it is not Psychology. The American Psychological Association, whose code of ethics governs publication authorship credit for psychologists, has some very clear and specific guidelines. For instance, authorship is based on the extent of contribution to the project. Also, the student, not the dissertation director, is the lst author on the article when the dissertation is published. Any exceptions are spelled out in the APA guidelines. "

I have the same info as educator, and I can assure you that it is NOT in the Psychology Dept. However, it is in your College. It was unethical, and it did happen, and we have the proof. What are we (talking about 5 of us) going to do about it?? Nothing - unless it becomes an issue that is hurting colleagues (former and present).

Date: Aug 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Emma
"I have the same info as educator, and I can assure you that it is NOT in the Psychology Dept. However, it is in your College. It was unethical, and it did happen, and we have the proof. What are we (talking about 5 of us) going to do about it?? Nothing - unless it becomes an issue that is hurting colleagues (former and present)."

If unethical behavior regarding publication is or has been occuring in our college, we have a professional obligation to do something about it. Scientific misconduct hurts us all, in both direct and indirect ways. I strongly encourage you to take appropriate action. If you desire "off site" and confidential guidance in how you can go about resolving this situation, I suggest that you contact someone like Dr. Noblin. But please do not assume that just because there is no direct and immediate harm, that no further action need be taken.

Date: Aug 17, 2004

Mitch, get your head out of the clouds and shame on you for ignoring what you knew was happening in the Nextdeptover. Refer to the April 2003 issue of The Reading Teacher to see for yourself how one of your "colleagues" has her name listed on a doc student's publication which, by the way, is straight out of the doc student's dissertation. This is a prime example of unethical and unprofessional behavior. It's something that wouldn't be even tolerated at other Carnegie 1 instituions. But when daddy's in the dome . . . . .

Date: Aug 17, 2004

MMS:

Actually, I have no information about this. If you are convinced that unethical publication behavior has occurred in your former department, could we please do the following?

1. PLEASE do not post any more specifics on this site. If action is warranted, it can taint a peer investigation.

2. Consult someone you trust with expertise on scientific misconduct on how to proceed. Even if you are pretty sure that you know, prior consultation from an expert party who is uninvolved in the instant case is almost always helpful down the road.

3. Follow through via either (a) the University, or (b) relevant professional or licensure boards or organizations.

Co-authorship by a major professor on a journal article based on a dissertation in and of itself does not constitute misconduct. As Dr. Noblin noted, authorship is based on substantial contribution to the finished work, and order is determined by the degree of contribution. In the majority of cases, the student will be first author on works derived from a dissertation. In psychology, it is the rare case that the major professor does not receive co-authorship credit (unless the contribution was relatively inconsequential).

If you want to contact me tomorrow, call me on my cell. Educator-you mentioned that the syllabus in question is in the public domain. Please forward a copy to my box (5023). If you have any other relevant documents, please forward them also. MMS' specific discloures require a follow up on my part.

Date: Aug 17, 2004

Co-authorship by a major professor on a journal article based on a dissertation in and of itself does not constitute misconduct. As Dr. Noblin noted, authorship is based on substantial contribution to the finished work, and order is determined by the degree of contribution. In the majority of cases, the student will be first author on works derived from a dissertation. In psychology, it is the rare case that the major professor does not receive co-authorship credit (unless the contribution was relatively inconsequential).

The issue is that "substantial contribution" part. You are trying to be real and I applaud that, but come on - who wants to take on that Dept. Discussed this with educator a bit ago, and we're not sure that you could even take care of this. Perhaps we can talk privately about this. The evidence is 100 per cent, and we think this will all be brought out in another forum soon. Don't want to condemn those who aren't part of the problem but let's not chase after windmills either. Carnegie I worthy? Not in your College by any stretch of the imagination (as a whole - although there are a few who bring the College some merit).

Date: Aug 18, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by: Mitch
"In brief, people who received raises mid year from one source or another were not excluded from the raise pool (I am excluding the $400 in this discussion) . . . . the raise amount based on the chair's merit rankings was adjusted in proportion to the amount of the mid year raise . . . . The Dean's office did not "reduce" raise recommendations from the chairs . . . Indiviudals who received new contracts mid year (e.g., the Dean and Associate Dean) were not eligible for the raise pool (but did receive the $400) . . . "Market value" discrepancy adjustments were also included in the equation, based on average college salary at rank and proportion of that due to "compression" . . . . Feedback was sought from the FS President (among others) before implementation . . . . CVs and two years of chair evals were examined to estimate if the chairs were calibrating rankings similarly . . . . Numerous permutations with various constants and weightings were empirically tested . . . ."

That's it?

Date: Aug 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: asdf
"Not saying that everyone does this, but I have seen this model in several departments at three different medical schools."

Let's consider the following manuscript:

Howard, M., Howard. C. & Fine, L. "In-Flight Dynamics of Cream Pies."

It was always my understanding that M. Howard would be the principal author, while C. Howard did all the work & L. Fine told them what it meant.

But all levity aside, through two graduate degrees at USM, I never had a professor demand that his/her name be included as co-author. Of course, it might have been that they didn't want their names associated with my work

OK. I assume faculty at USM have to submit publication lists periodically. Do you also have to submit lists of former students who have become successful businesspeople, schoolteachers & even college administrators? Maybe it's just me, but a human success story is worth 10,000 referreed publications.

Date: Aug 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
" Let's consider the following manuscript: Howard, M., Howard. C. & Fine, L. "In-Flight Dynamics of Cream Pies." It was always my understanding that M. Howard would be the principal author, while C. Howard did all the work & L. Fine told them what it meant. But all levity aside, through two graduate degrees at USM, I never had a professor demand that his/her name be included as co-author. Of course, it might have been that they didn't want their names associated with my work OK. I assume faculty at USM have to submit publication lists periodically. Do you also have to submit lists of former students who have become successful businesspeople, schoolteachers & even college administrators? Maybe it's just me, but a human success story is worth 10,000 referreed publications. "

Good post! I also find it odd that a professor of any sort would demand to be included as a co-author on one of their student's publications. Of course a mentor helped a student with the research and writing - that's the job of a mentor. The object of mentoring should be to get the student started on their career. The professor will build his/her career not by snagging another co-author line for their c.v. but by producing quality professionals who join the discipline or pursue other professional work and share their experiences with their colleagues. I know our society is greedy beyond measure but, really, get some perspective and help the students who, by succeeding, will boost your career as well. And, yes, I noticed the countless one-page, several co-author publications that SFT lists on his c.v. - in my discipline this would raise immediate red flags and bring into question the integrity and academic achievement of that co-author. Seems that would have been the proper interpretation in this case.

Date: Aug 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Angeline
"And, yes, I noticed the countless one-page, several co-author publications that SFT lists on his c.v. - in my discipline this would raise immediate red flags and bring into question the integrity and academic achievement of that co-author. Seems that would have been the proper interpretation in this case."

I think this completely depends on your field. In the sciences (at least biomedical) it is the norm to have multiple authors. In fact, I would be suspicious of a single author paper (except for a review paper) since it would almost imply that somebody did not get credit for their work. The first and last author are the most important and your number of last author papers become more important the further along in your career you are (I had never thought of this until a friend of mine started looking at promotion and he was told that he needed more papers with him listed as the senior scientist). There are even journals that are starting to recognize multiple first authors. It has been stated on this board many times that you can not evaluate all disciplines the same; this also goes for publications.

Date: Aug 18, 2004

i remember reading an article in the Chronicle a few years ago that said some articles in particle physics have hundreds of authors. the norm for that research area.

Date: Aug 18, 2004

how about putting all five dissertation committee members on the publication. anybody heard of that?

Date: Aug 18, 2004

It seems, based on these posts, that authorship is not quantitatively standardized across disciplines, departments, labs and even researchers. Comparison is not a reasonable pursuit. And, despite the published APA and other ethical guidelines, there are avaricious authorship frauds, plagiarists, data-cookers et al. who we will never catch.

It stinks, but what can we do?

Date: Aug 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Done Gone
"It seems, based on these posts, that authorship is not quantitatively standardized across disciplines, departments, labs and even researchers. Comparison is not a reasonable pursuit. And, despite the published APA and other ethical guidelines, there are avaricious authorship frauds, plagiarists, data-cookers et al. who we will never catch. It stinks, but what can we do?"

It all has to do with faculty selection and retention in the manner practiced by good universities - sine cronyship, which includes obtaining unbiased and qualified peer review of those decisions.

Date: Aug 18, 2004

PC Chair,

Interesting thoughts, but unless the unethical behavior is fairly common among the applicant pool, there is no reasonable way to predict which candidate will or will not cheat--Bayesian laws of probability.

Date: Aug 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Done Gone
"PC Chair, Interesting thoughts, but unless the unethical behavior is fairly common among the applicant pool, there is no reasonable way to predict which candidate will or will not cheat--Bayesian laws of probability."

I refer to unbiased external reviews at tenure time, not to internal reviews where cronyism can be rampant. Competent reviewers can help ferret out the padded resumes filled with unrefereed publications and the other smoke and mirrors some candiates use to snooker the naive and uninitiated. Garbage in garbage out. Got to keep the garbage from coming in, and then get the garbage out if it is discovered.

Date: Aug 18, 2004

PCC,

Amen.

But, if the garbage goes in and the out-garbagy is delivered with high credibility, you get garbage in gospel out--a scary state of affairs.

DG

Date: Aug 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Personnel Committee Chair
" Garbage in garbage out. Got to keep the garbage from coming in, and then get the garbage out if it is discovered. "

If the department chair or the dean fail to establish an appropriate system to see that this is accomplished, get yourself new garbage men.

Date: Aug 19, 2004

IDEABOT = IDIOTBOT

Date: Aug 19, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: THESARUS
"IDEABOT = IDIOTBOT"

I believe in board parlance, that would be correctly spelled "IDOTBOT." Kinda like the sound of that one!