The Real Problem with 099 (long) - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Jul 30, 2004

The Real Problem with 099 (long)

Date: Jul 30, 2004

Well said P.W., and right on target. Congratulations on an excellent post. We need more post with substance like yours.

Date: Jul 30, 2004

Thank you, P.W. That is what I was trying to say yesterday, only not nearly as well as you have.

"At risk" means lower probability of success, regardless of the reason. And, I am tired of rare anecdotal outliers driving political and academic policy.

DG

Date: Jul 30, 2004

There are universities that have open admissions (called rolling admissions because it leaves the other universities rolling in the aisles) that have only minimal effort in remedial classes. At those they are only offering an opportunity - what you make of it is your choice. The downside is a very low graduation rate. The upside? A lot of them pay their tuition, skip their classes, and party. The university gets the money (none of them on scholarship, of course) and doesn't have them bulking up class sizes. Money for nothing!

Date: Jul 31, 2004

“if my prediction is true, enacting a de facto "pass-em-all" philosophy”

Can you elaborate on this please? Specifically, what has been done that has made instructors here think they have to pass anybody who does not meet the standards set by the instructor for the whole class?

Date: Jul 31, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: P.W. Bryant
"The fact is that college is not for everyone. Allowing a large number of so-called "at-risk" students to enroll only perpetuates the illusion that they will succeed when odds are that they will not, given USM's lack of a reasonable support system. In point of fact, it is not USM's job to teach high school-level subjects - that's the purpose of the high school system in Mississippi.

That depends on how you read the school’s mission statement, which is subject to change and should change over time to reflect the needs of the state’s students. I fail to see how a class being taught on a college campus by a college instructor is a high school class just because it does not begin with the designator 100. I fail to see how offering 099 classes implies that college is now going to be for everyone. There will still be standards that 099 students, like all students, will have to meet before getting that degree. It is still up to the instructor rather than the school whether a particular student will make the grade. It does not follow that because 099 classes are going to be offered, the USM degree is going to be worth less. For that to happen requires judgment to be made on a student who has graduated college, not just begun it. Let us see how these students who begin with 099 turn out at graduation time. If they turn out bad and devalue the degree, the fault will be only in the hands of the instructor whose teaching methods produced poor results.

USM is not the first university to go to something like 099 classes. As usual, it has waited while other states led the way.

Date: Jul 31, 2004

Let’s look at part of the mission statement from the math dept.

"The primary mission of the Department of Mathematics is the transmission, discovery, creation, and expansion of mathematical knowledge. Its curriculum is designed to encourage: learning based upon rational inquiry, problem solving, creativity, and intellectual initiative. Its instructional thrusts run the gamut from basic skill development designed to create a mathematically literate undergraduate populace, to meeting specific educational needs of students outside the science and technology establishment, to the creation and delivery of innovative and effective teacher-training programs, to the engendering of a strong mathematics knowledge base among those who will be charged with contributing to both the regional and national scientific enterprises. ….The undergraduate program serves students primarily from the southern region of the state. The students are predominantly the first members of their family to attend college."

Date: Jul 31, 2004

I am surprised you guys did not attack the Developmental Education Program, which is actually further below the 099 classes. I guess you did not attack it because it was either in place before you got here or because you are not current faculty. See below, especially the statements in bold.
>>>>>>>

The Developmental Education Program offers students who do not meet regular admission criteria
an opportunity to enroll in a four-year public institution of higher learning in the state of
Mississippi. The entire program consists of three semesters (summer, fall, and spring) of prescribed
study, determined by current IHL Board policy.

The summer component of the program includes the following courses: English (ENG 90), reading
(CIE 90), mathematics (MAT 90), and support lab (LS 90L). Each course is three credit hours for a
total of twelve credit hours. Students who successfully complete the summer term by passing all
four courses will be considered to have made satisfactory academic progress in the first phase of the
program and will be eligible to continue in the fall. This includes mandatory participation in the
Developmental Education Program in the fall and spring immediately following the student’s
enrollment.

The fall component includes enrollment in Academic Support I (LS 101). The spring component
includes enrollment in Academic Support II (LS 102). Students must pass the fall and spring
components of the Developmental Education Program immediately following the completion
of the student’s summer enrollment to maintain their enrollment status.

Students who fail to satisfactorily complete all three components of the Developmental Education
Program are considered to have made unsatisfactory academic progress and are not eligible for
continued enrollment. These students will be counseled to explore other post-secondary
opportunities.

Date: Jul 31, 2004

All of you are giving too much significance to the ACT scores. When it comes down to it, we are only talking about Math and English here, and it is mostly Math. Math scores kept me and my two sisters out of USM initially, in spite of our high ACT scores. The only math I have used in my life and still use is basic addition, subtraction, and percentages. Nothing I or my sisters planned to major in required any math at all, yet it kept us out of USM. All three of use eventually graduated with at least a 3.4 gpa and moved on to other academic adventures. I suspect alot of these 099-level students will be just like us. The rest of you though, being the negative and pessimistic people that you are, can go ahead and see for what you are looking to see. Just remember this one thing though. The only time instructors really make a difference in a student’s life is when they teach them a basic skill. These other more advanced and specific classes do not even come close to having the potential for making a difference in a student’s life.

Date: Jul 31, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Online Prof
"“if my prediction is true, enacting a de facto "pass-em-all" philosophy”

Can you elaborate on this please? Specifically, what has been done that has made instructors here think they have to pass anybody who does not meet the standards set by the instructor for the whole class?"

The use of student evaluations for promotion and tenure pretty much assures that people who show up will pass. This is a nationwide problem. As a friend of mine used to say, open admissions becomes open graduation.

Date: Jul 31, 2004

There are 5 consecutive posts on this thread alone by Online Prof. He's pushing an agenda --- it's a propaganda war. Watch out.

Date: Jul 31, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: bb mac
"There are 5 consecutive posts on this thread alone by Online Prof. He's pushing an agenda --- it's a propaganda war. Watch out."

troll = mole

Date: Jul 31, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Online Prof
"... The only math I have used in my life and still use is basic addition, subtraction, and percentages. Nothing I or my sisters planned to major in required any math at all, yet it kept us out of USM. All three of use eventually graduated with at least a 3.4 gpa and moved on to other academic adventures. I suspect alot of these 099-level students will be just like us. ..."

On Line prof, I do not mean to hurt your feelings, but I need to comment on your above statements. You imply that you only use elementary math. I hope that is not the only math you know and understand. In our complex society just to evaluate the statements and follow the logic of politicians require more than arithmetic. Efficient planning requires algebra. I know we live in a lazy society and most are content to let someone else do the "critical thinking". But this is what people with a university education used to be able to do. Why should Mississippi citizens be short changed. Is that why we are on the bottom?

I heard someone say that at USM a student who studies hard can graduate with an excellent *high school* education. This is very true for many students graduate with math and English skills
below that of my father, who never even attended college.

My point is that people are trying to use the university for two very different things. 1) Tax payers and students a paying for a "university EDUCATION". If they don't get one at USM, they may still find jobs, but the society will never make up the lost on the investment. 2)Some want only to be "trained" for a job. This is a vast difference from being educated and it is not cost effective to have universities performing the task of vocational schools. Again in the long term the state will suffer for

Date: Jul 31, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: bb mac
"There are 5 consecutive posts on this thread alone by Online Prof. He's pushing an agenda --- it's a propaganda war. Watch out."

No, he was replying to different parts of a very LONG post and two of his posts were regarding different people. What you see as agenda, I see as someone who obviously cares about the student. For a troll he sure seems to be interested in these 099 classes and not the other posts on the board. All of you need to stop using your "troll" markings so liberally and let the readers decide for themselves.

Date: Aug 1, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Otherside
" ............1) Tax payers and students a paying for a "university EDUCATION". If they don't get one at USM, they may still find jobs, but the society will never make up the lost on the investment. 2)Some want only to be "trained" for a job. This is a vast difference from being educated and it is not cost effective to have universities performing the task of vocational schools. Again in the long term the state will suffer for "

I have not been ignoring you Otherside. I am just not convinced by your arguments. How did USM pay for the classes this upcoming Fall if the taxpayer cannot afford it?

I also do not think offering the very basic Math and English classes is tantamount to making USM a trade school. In fact, there is no comparison between the two. You are completely right that those who do not want to get educated but are just going to get prepared for some vocational job should not be here, and I hope that is not what is happening to USM. People can got to Antonellie College for that. It is just that Math and English are not trade classes. They help with the basic skills that the overwhelming majority of people are going to have to have go forward in the university and, consequently, to be happy in society.

Date: Aug 1, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by: Online Prof
"How did USM pay for the classes this upcoming Fall if the taxpayer cannot afford it?"

The answer to your question, Online Prof, is quite simple: USM robbed Peter to pay Paul - by draining off funds which otherwise available to support other much needed endeavors. The 099 courses could have been offered much in a more financially efficient manner at one of our fine Community Colleges.

Date: Aug 1, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Online Prof
"
I have not been ignoring you Otherside. I am just not convinced by your arguments. How did USM pay for the classes this upcoming Fall if the taxpayer cannot afford it?
"

In the short run, paying for an 099 class isn't much different than paying for a 101 class, but in the former case you must pay for both. To the extent that the state subsidizes courses, it is paying for two courses instead of one. Multiplied by hundreds of students this means the state is paying lots of money for something that should have been taught (or learned) in high school.

The junior colleges are much more efficient at delivering remedial courses and perhaps better as well.

Date: Aug 1, 2004

Online Prof,

You obviously have a knack for "fuzzy" logic and "migrating" definitions...whatever makes it easier for you to make your case, as transparent as your agenda may be.

To begin, I have firsthand knowledge that administrators at USM have encouraged some of the more rigorous faculty to "dumb it down" so that there will be fewer student failures and, therefore, fewer student complaints.

As for the idea that we should "wait and see" what happens to the value of the degree post-099ers, I will submit to you that your proposal ignores historical truths. Maybe Bernie Ebbers said the same thing to his accountants.."let's wait and see how these new accounting methods affect our stock price." If something stinks to high heaven, it's more likely rotten (e.g. roadkill) than "aged to perfection" (e.g. meunster).

When you quote the Department of Mathematics' mission statement, you again selectively interpret portions of the statement which suit your needs. My questions are included within the quotation below in bold:

"The primary mission of the Department of Mathematics is the transmission, discovery, creation, and expansion of mathematical knowledge{I'm not reading anything about 099 classes that would lead me to believe that 099 classes will lead to discovery, creation, or expansion of the universe of existing mathematical knowledge}. Its curriculum is designed to encourage: learning based upon rational inquiry, problem solving, creativity, and intellectual initiative. Its instructional thrusts run the gamut from basic skill development designed to create a mathematically literate undergraduate populace{here is some justification for SOME sections of Math 099, but read on...}, to meeting specific educational needs of students outside the science and technology establishment, to the creation and delivery of innovative and effective teacher-training programs, to the engendering of a strong mathematics knowledge base among those who will be charged with contributing to both the regional and national scientific enterprises{as you can see, basic skills, which, by my own definition are above what will be taught in 099, are but a small portion of the dept's charge...yet 099 will require a large portion of resources} . ….The undergraduate program serves students primarily from the southern region of the state{all students from the region and the state, not specifically those who are mathematically illiterate at the 100-level}. The students are predominantly the first members of their family to attend college."

As for the Developmental Education Program, I think it's a joke. If you cannot meet the requirements for admission, you don't need to be at a university...that's what community colleges and trade schools are for. I don't have great vision without my glasses, and I can never be a Navy Pilot because of that. Does that mean my life is worthless? Does that mean I should sue the Navy to let me have a special "pass" to flight school? NO! There are many careers that require stringent standards for admission to that field...should we drop all standards so that we can avoid ever telling someone that they need to pursue an alternative career?

The ACT is a test of acquired knowledge, not intelligence. If you score low on the ACT, it is usually because (1) you have not acquired the requisite knowledge because you lack the ability, (2) you have not acquired the requisite knowledge because you lack the motivation to learn, or (3) you are not a good test-taker. In any event, I maintain that the ACT is ONE way to determine if a prospective student has "what it takes" to succeed. To paraphrase a friend of mine, You can be smart and lazy and get by. You can be not-so-smart and work hard and get by. If you're not-so-smart AND lazy, you're screwed. Additionally, we will never stop giving exams in an educational setting, and anyone who says "I'm just not too good at taking tests" is just a failure waiting to happen.

To lower admissions standards is to say that we realize that the students of today are not capable of performing at the levels at which students performed ten years ago, so we will have to dumb down our standards. Once we allow those who have been admitted under the dumbed-down standards, classroom standards will fall and, as we have already seen at USM, grades will be inflated.

Online Prof, you obviously have an agenda that you want to push...why don't you just post it? Are you afraid that members of the board will shred your comments as you attempted to shred mine? Don't be scared, OP! Posting YOUR beliefs may force you to actually decide what you believe.

Date: Aug 1, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Online Prof
"
... How did USM pay for the classes this upcoming Fall if the taxpayer cannot afford it?..

... It is just that Math and English are not trade classes. ..
"

The answer to your question O.P. is the tuition had to be raised because this state is too poor to afford so many universities.

But I was also discussing the LONG TERM effects on the culture. I made the comment that implied some are only getting what used to be a good high school education at USM. People now have to attend Grad. School to get a good university education. California and Texas may be able to afford this nonsense, but this is the poorest state and needs to be efficient with it education system.

The state already has institutions located almost everywhere that teach the subject matter of 099 classes. They are called high schools. Why can't a student needing this subject matter sit in the local high school class IF THEY ARE SO MOTIVATED TO ATTEND UNIVERSITY?

I disagree that Math and English are not trade classes. The subject matter at the high school is required to succeed in trades. A good carpenter even uses trigonometry.

Now I need to ask you a question. Today there are disciplines at USM that were never in a university when I was an undergraduate. Some of these may be considered trades, but USM is offering these students a chance to get a university education in addition to their TRAINING. Are you in a discipline that was not common to a university 25 years ago

Date: Aug 1, 2004

Excellent post P.W. I wish I had read it before I responded to O.P

Date: Aug 3, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Just Plain Jane
"The answer to your question, Online Prof, is quite simple: USM robbed Peter to pay Paul - by draining off funds which otherwise available to support other much needed endeavors. The 099 courses could have been offered much in a more financially efficient manner at one of our fine Community Colleges. "

For that matter, so could the 100 and 200 level classes. Let us do away with them too then. That will save even more money. :(

Date: Aug 3, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: bb mac
"There are 5 consecutive posts on this thread alone by Online Prof. He's pushing an agenda --- it's a propaganda war. Watch out."

And the other posters on this board are not pushing an agenda? It was not me who started this thread, was it?

Date: Aug 3, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: P.W. Bryant
"Online Prof, You obviously have a knack..(other trivial stuff deleted).......Online Prof, you obviously have an agenda that you want to push...why don't you just post it? Are you afraid that members of the board will shred your comments as you attempted to shred mine? Don't be scared, OP! Posting YOUR beliefs may force you to actually decide what you believe."

Ah “first hand knowledge” from an anonymous poster. That is sure to convince many people of the argument.

The other posters on this board are clearly the ones pushing an agenda. All I have done is offer another opinion, and this is an opinion from a current faculty member, which is a rarity on this board.

I noticed you got very offended by and ugly about my response to your original post. Only insecure people get so defensive and react in the manner that you did. I am passionate about my posts, but insecure posters are insecure because they have subconscious doubts about their arguments. You accused me of trying to tear apart your post. Actually, your post was far too long, so you set yourself up for that. You should have broken that post into 3 different pieces. Doing that would also be a consideration for those faculty who actually work full-time and have little time to read posts here from non-faculty. If you continue to be bitterly critical rather than professionally constructive, I will just ignore your posts.

Date: Aug 3, 2004

"Doing that would also be a consideration for those faculty who actually work full-time and have little time to read posts here from non-faculty."

Aside from the fact that O.P. doesnt' know who is or is not faculty on this board, the elitism and snobbery of this remark just reeks. USM Sympathiser, D.C. Eagle, Invictus, et. al. guess your input is no longer desired? Interesting that only full time faculty (at USM presumably) are the only people with worthy ideas!! The rest of you people just keep handing over those dollars and keep your mouths shut!

Date: Aug 3, 2004

Check out the academic calendar, OP. If you were a real faculty member and not a virtual one, you would know that the summer is a slow period. Folks have plenty of time to read all sorts of things.

Date: Aug 3, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Online Prof
"Doing that would also be a consideration for those faculty who actually work full-time and have little time to read posts here from non-faculty.

Online Prof,

Little time to read posts from non-faculty? Why I even knew a faculty member who actually listened to a student! And another who listened to her secretary. Once upon a time I even listened to a basketball coach. Little time for non-faculty? Wow!

Date: Aug 3, 2004

Online Prof,

Your agenda is made clear from the body of work you have posted on this board. You are flacking for the administration. Almost everyone on this board sees that now. bb mac had you pegged.

Date: Aug 3, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: not interested
" Online Prof, Little time to read posts from non-faculty? Why I even knew a faculty member who actually listened to a student! And another who listened to her secretary. Once upon a time I even listened to a basketball coach. Little time for non-faculty? Wow! "

We know that Online Prof is definitely not the IHL who seems to ignore the faculty voices and listen to almost anybody the faculty.