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Post Info TOPIC: Kerry against Tenure
flyonthewall

Date:
Kerry against Tenure
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http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/07/05/teacher.tenure.ap/index.html


Here is a copy/paste version


Teacher tenure under scrutiny






Monday, July 5, 2004 Posted: 7:49 AM EDT (1149 GMT)


WASHINGTON (AP) -- The decades-old tradition of tenure protects teachers, often frustrates principals and has even surfaced as an issue in the presidential campaign. Now tenure itself is under review.


Tenure guarantees that public school teachers who have this protection cannot be fired without legitimate cause and due process, perhaps even a court hearing. Almost every state provides tenure in some form.


Yet with federal law requiring schools to have a top teacher for every core class, more administrators are questioning whether tenure keeps them from getting rid of even a small number of instructors who just are not good enough in the classroom.


Democrat John Kerry, the presidential candidate favored by education unions, wants to make it easier for schools to act quickly against poor teachers, provided that educators are protected from baseless firings.


To teachers, tenure is a coveted and often misunderstood right -- not a lock on a lifetime job, but assurance of fair treatment, including intervention for teachers who may be struggling to reach students.


"It's protection against the false accusations, against politically trumped up charges, against people who insist you must teach a certain way or risk getting fired," said Penny Kotterman, a special education teacher and president of the Arizona affiliate of the National Education Association. She spoke during a group interview Sunday with The Associated Press during the NEA's annual meeting.


Job security


Tenure is most associated with colleges and universities, where prospective professors earn it by compiling a rigorous record of research, teaching and service.


In the kindergarten through high school world, it is typically granted to teachers after two to five years of at least solid performance in a district, although debate continues over its value as a sign of quality.


Most principals and superintendents say tenure does not mean teachers have proved themselves to be very good, and many teachers agreed with that point in polls by the nonpartisan Public Agenda research group.


 But Kotterman said that is off the mark. Tenure, she said, is meant mainly as an assurance of fair review, while certification and regular evaluation of teachers are indicators of quality.


In the polls, most teachers said tenure protects them from district politics and losing their jobs to newcomers who could be hired for less.


David Sanchez, a kindergarten teacher from Burlingame, California, said tenure has helped teachers who were being pushed out of jobs in retaliation for union activity.


Charles Hasse, a fourth-grader teacher and president of the Washington Education Association, said tenure helps because schools have fewer people in supervisory roles than many employers, making "the opportunity for misjudgments much greater."


Shielding the strong


School administrators, who are often former teachers, say they understand the point of tenure. But they say it can lead to frustrating delays in replacing poor teachers, leading some administrators to give up trying.


In Oklahoma, trying to remove a tenured teacher can lead to a court hearing, said Ruth Ann Carr, superintendent of Ardmore Public Schools. "You have to have people who are willing to go the distance on those type of employment situations," Carr said. "They end up feeling like they're the ones on trial."


Teachers union leaders say they support expedited reviews but they take issue with the argument that tenure protects poor teachers. They say administrators should have no problem making a clear case against those who cannot or will not improve.


 States offer legitimate reasons for firing tenured teachers, from immorality to insubordination; not all directly address teaching performance. Typically, the teachers said Sunday, states have a process to speed reviews for tenured teachers accused of a major violation on campus, such as drug use.


The challenge, critics say, is getting rid of mediocre teachers, not the ones who commit egregious conduct violations.


Yet Michael Kramer, who represents teachers as general counsel for the Georgia Association of Educators, says tenure can help the educational mission by protecting strong, outspoken teachers.


"It's the brightest, the risk-taking teachers," he said, "who are most at risk for arbitrary dismissal."


 



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Outside Observer

Date:
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Gee...I don't know...protection from being fired without legitmate cause and due process?  Seems reasonable to me!!


 


 


quote:

Originally posted by: flyonthewall
". Tenure guarantees that public school teachers who have this protection cannot be fired without legitimate cause and due process, perhaps even a court hearing. Almost every state provides tenure in some form.



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truth4usm/AH

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And what does candidate Bush have to say about tenure?

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truth4usm/AH

Date:
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Since we're on the topic of Kerry and teachers:


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=3&u=/ap/20040705/ap_on_el_pr/teachers_kerry


 



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truth4usm/AH

Date:
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quote:
Originally posted by: truth4usm/AH
"Since we're on the topic of Kerry and teachers: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=3&u=/ap/20040705/ap_on_el_pr/teachers_kerry  "
Oh, well...I can't find a link that works, but basically the NEA has endorsed Kerry for Prez.  No big news, really, as they typically endorse the Dem candidate for Prez.  Just thought it was interesting that the remarks attributed to Kerry above didn't affect NEA's decision.  Makes me think that the title of this thread is a bit misleading (not really an "attack" on tenure, per se).

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Hot Throbbing Okra

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Articles like this one serve little useful purpose in helping people arrive at decisions about political candidates.  The writer makes a statement and then walks away from it; there is hardly anything in the article at all about Kerry and tenure.  I didn't see a single quote from Kerry in the article, nor did I see anything else that would lead me to believe that Kerry is "against tenure".


Call me crazy, call me whacky, but something tells me that neither candidate's views on "tenure" (however you define that word) will factor significantly in the presidential election.


 


 



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Angeline

Date:
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quote:
Originally posted by: Hot Throbbing Okra
"Articles like this one serve little useful purpose in helping people arrive at decisions about political candidates.  The writer makes a statement and then walks away from it; there is hardly anything in the article at all about Kerry and tenure.  I didn't see a single quote from Kerry in the article, nor did I see anything else that would lead me to believe that Kerry is "against tenure". Call me crazy, call me whacky, but something tells me that neither candidate's views on "tenure" (however you define that word) will factor significantly in the presidential election.    "
I agree that these issues may not impact many voters, but since we're on the topic: you can look at Kerry's education stances here: http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/education/ and the much briefer description of Bush's stances on education here: http://www.georgewbush.com/Education/

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Fire Shelby

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I'm eager to hear whom he will tap for his VP tomorrow morning.  Can't wait to hear!


*fingers crossed* that it is the guy I supported during the prez primaries!



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lumpy oatmeal

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as of Tuesday 6:50 a.m. it's Edwards

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Fire Shelby

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quote:
Originally posted by: lumpy oatmeal
"as of Tuesday 6:50 a.m. it's Edwards"

 


And I am happy as can be.  Excellent choice!



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truth4usm/AH

Date:
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quote:
Originally posted by: Fire Shelby
"   And I am happy as can be.  Excellent choice!"
Me, too, FS.  Great minds think alike! 

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The Rock

Date:
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As a Republican, I'm about as excited as Michael Moore at a Ryan's Steakhouse buffet...



Just kidding - good choice by Kerry.  It at least adds some personality to the ticket.  A Kerry/Gephardt ticket would have made watching paint dry seem exciting again.


But enough of that - back to focusing on a local UNIVERSITY president that we need to deal with before November rolls around....



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Fire Shelby

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quote:
Originally posted by: truth4usm/AH
"Me, too, FS.  Great minds think alike!  "

Gotta order some bumperstickers soon. Need a tee-shirt, too.


Have you seen F9/11?  I'm planning on going to Jackson this weekend to see it.



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truth4usm/AH

Date:
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quote:
Originally posted by: The Rock
"As a Republican, I'm about as excited as Michael Moore at a Ryan's Steakhouse buffet... Just kidding - good choice by Kerry.  It at least adds some personality to the ticket.  A Kerry/Gephardt ticket would have made watching paint dry seem exciting again. But enough of that - back to focusing on a local UNIVERSITY president that we need to deal with before November rolls around...."
Rock, some of my best friends are Republicans...really!  But you're right...the focus is on the ouster of SFT.  This is just a diversion.

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truth4usm/AH

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quote:
Originally posted by: Fire Shelby
" Gotta order some bumperstickers soon. Need a tee-shirt, too. Have you seen F9/11?  I'm planning on going to Jackson this weekend to see it."

Yep, I've seen it (one of the perks of living in a big city).  Don't want to get too OT here, but if you want my detailed opinion, you know where to reach me!  truth@FireThames.com


 



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Fire Shelby

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quote:
Originally posted by: truth4usm/AH
" Yep, I've seen it (one of the perks of living in a big city).  Don't want to get too OT here, but if you want my detailed opinion, you know where to reach me!  truth@FireThames.com  "

God forbid we discuss Kerry in a thread about Kerry. 


I'll email you soon.  Will mail you a bumpersticker when they come in.


(Let me just say, that on the old board, I tried to abstain from political discussion--however, if people are going to post threads about presidential candidates, I will respond.)



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truth4usm/AH

Date:
Permalink Closed

quote:
Originally posted by: Fire Shelby
" God forbid we discuss Kerry in a thread about Kerry.  I'll email you soon.  Will mail you a bumpersticker when they come in. (Let me just say, that on the old board, I tried to abstain from political discussion--however, if people are going to post threads about presidential candidates, I will respond.)"

Thanks in advance for the bumpersticker!


Well, then here's my assessment of F 9/11: the second half is better (much better) than the first half.  Don't lose hope!  There is gore (Iraq war casualties) and violence (a beheading, albeit a far-away shot of it), FYI. 


It's a powerful movie that's obviously getting a lot of attention for a reason. 



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Outside Observer

Date:
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Michael Moore is a vicious, radical liberal with only a passing acquaintance with the truth.


quote:




Originally posted by: truth4usm/AH
" Thanks in advance for the bumpersticker! Well, then here's my assessment of F 9/11: the second half is better (much better) than the first half.  Don't lose hope!  There is gore (Iraq war casualties) and violence (a beheading, albeit a far-away shot of it), FYI.  It's a powerful movie that's obviously getting a lot of attention for a reason.  "





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The Rock

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I strongly suggest we stay away from anything related to Michael Moore - things could get ugly real quick in this otherwise (usually) civil arena.  Outside Observer touched on a feeling shared by more than a few people who post here regularly......

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Outside Observer

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You're probably right..MM is the guy who said the U.S. has committed more acts of Terrorism than Al Queda.


 


quote:




Originally posted by: The Rock
"I strongly suggest we stay away from anything related to Michael Moore - things could get ugly real quick in this otherwise (usually) civil arena.  Outside Observer touched on a feeling shared by more than a few people who post here regularly...... "





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anna

Date:
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It matters not what Kerry thinks about tenure; or, for that matter, what Bush thinks about tenure. Tenure is an academic, not a presidential, concern. Matters of tenure are to be determined in the halls of academe, not in the corridors of the white house. a presidential candidate's view of tenure is worth about as much as is my opinion of how to remedy an ingrown toenail.

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Interested Outsider

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... and that Elian Gonzales will be better of growing up in Cuba than in the United States!

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truth4usm/AH

Date:
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quote:
Originally posted by: The Rock
"I strongly suggest we stay away from anything related to Michael Moore - things could get ugly real quick in this otherwise (usually) civil arena.  Outside Observer touched on a feeling shared by more than a few people who post here regularly...... "

As we've said before in this forum, everyone's entitled to their opinion.  Someone else started this political thread, so FS and I were simply continuing the conversation.  Glad to see others joined in. 


As for MM, I could say the same things some of you are saying about *him* about Rush Limbaugh or Anne Coulter (substitute "conservative" for "liberal"), but I won't.  Sad to see that the US has become so partisan, but it's true. 


As for the 2004 Election, let the games begin!  I encourage everyone to go vote for your candidate (whoever that may be).  When we get our voting percentages up (what was it last time...around 50% of the electorate?), then we can truly call ourselves a democracy.  Voting is the most patriotic act Americans can do...too bad more of them don't see it this way.


GO VOTE!  POWER TO THE PEOPLE!


NO QUARTER!



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Outside Observer

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I believe the original comment had to do with Michael Moore's movie...I think the accuracy of the movie and the integrity (or complete absence thereof) of the individual who made the movie are appropriate.


I don't see what Rush Limbaugh or Anne Coulter have to do with it.


quote:




Originally posted by: truth4usm/AH
" As we've said before in this forum, everyone's entitled to their opinion.  Someone else started this political thread, so FS and I were simply continuing the conversation.  Glad to see others joined in.  As for MM, I could say the same things some of you are saying about *him* about Rush Limbaugh or Anne Coulter (substitute "conservative" for "liberal"), but I won't.  Sad to see that the US has become so partisan, but it's true.  As for the 2004 Election, let the games begin!  I encourage everyone to go vote for your candidate (whoever that may be).  When we get our voting percentages up (what was it last time...around 50% of the electorate?), then we can truly call ourselves a democracy.  Voting is the most patriotic act Americans can do...too bad more of them don't see it this way. GO VOTE!  POWER TO THE PEOPLE! NO QUARTER!"





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Anonymouse

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quote:
Originally posted by: anna
"Matters of tenure are to be determined in the halls of academe, not in the corridors of the white house. a presidential candidate's view of tenure is worth about as much as is my opinion of how to remedy an ingrown toenail. "


Unless that presidential candidate is a candidate for a university presidency.


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Interested Outsider

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"As for MM, I could say the same things some of you are saying about *him* about Rush Limbaugh or Anne Coulter (substitute "conservative" for "liberal"), but I won't.  Sad to see that the US has become so partisan, but it's true."


IT IS TRUE THAT BOTH OF THESE COMMENTS INDICATE PARTISANSHIP . . . DO THEY NOT?

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Outside Observer

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No...mine indicate an intense dislike of Michael Moore.


 


quote:




Originally posted by: Interested Outsider
""As for MM, I could say the same things some of you are saying about *him* about Rush Limbaugh or Anne Coulter (substitute "conservative" for "liberal"), but I won't.  Sad to see that the US has become so partisan, but it's true." IT IS TRUE THAT BOTH OF THESE COMMENTS INDICATE PARTISANSHIP . . . DO THEY NOT?"





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INTERESTED OUTSIDER

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And is not that dislike associated with MM's partisan politcal views and activities?

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Outside Observer

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A few years ago, I actually registered for MM's email list.  At that time I had no idea whether he was republican or democrat or purple.  I was interested in his first movie...about the closing of auto plants.  ...I couldn't believe the gross propaganda I received!  And then, after repeated requests to be taken off the mailing list, I continued to receive emails.


My biggest problem with MM is his intense dislike for the truth!


 


quote:




Originally posted by: INTERESTED OUTSIDER
"And is not that dislike associated with MM's partisan politcal views and activities?"





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truth4usm/AH

Date:
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quote:
Originally posted by: Outside Observer
"I believe the original comment had to do with Michael Moore's movie...I think the accuracy of the movie and the integrity (or complete absence thereof) of the individual who made the movie are appropriate.

I don't see what Rush Limbaugh or Anne Coulter have to do with it."


So this comment from you above:


Michael Moore is a vicious, radical liberal with only a passing acquaintance with the truth.


was about F 9/11?  I took it to be a comment on MM's personal politics and not the movie.  Ergo, my statement was that if you substituted "conservative" for "liberal" the same statement could apply to pundits such as RL and AC (who have both said that the Abu Ghraib prison incident was no more serious than a fraternity prank, for example, and in RL's case, then denied saying it).


As for partisanship, as I've said before, some of my best friends are Republicans.  I don't think all Republicans are bad, nor do I think all Republican ideas are bad (just some of the more vociferous, fringe types are bad!).  I'm also for smaller government (as long as it serves the people well), free enterprise, and less government intervention in people's daily lives.  I'd actually like to see more viable third (and fourth!) party options in the US...people need more of a choice.



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