Eco. Devel.: from COBD to COAL? - USM Forum -- Message Board

Date: Jun 16, 2004

Eco. Devel.: from COBD to COAL?

Date: Jun 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Cowboy's Sweetheart
"Has anybody heard anything about the likelihood that the economic development program will be moved from the College of Business and Economic Development under Doty to the College of Arts and letters under Pood? If so, might the proposed transfer have anything to do with differential accreditation standards between the two colleges? "

From the College of Business and Economic Development to the College of Arts and Letters?

Date: Jun 16, 2004

I've heard it was almost a done deal.

Date: Jun 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: leslie
"I've heard it was almost a done deal."

And the rationalle for that proposed transfer?

Date: Jun 16, 2004

try to save cbed accredidation?

quote:

Originally posted by: Cowboy's Sweetheart
"And the rationalle for that proposed transfer?"

Date: Jun 16, 2004

Which of those two Deans would have the most flexible academic standards?

Date: Jun 16, 2004

If you recall, one of the selling points on the college reorganization was it would result in all five colleges having a Ph.D. program. If this shift occurs, that no longer will be true. (Not that it really matters.)

I don't know why they didn't just create a School of Business (consisting of the "true" business programs) within the new CBED. ED could have been a department reporting to the CBED dean, and the CBED would have a Ph.D. program not tied directly to its business school. Looks to me like that might have been away around the AACSB concerns.

Date: Jun 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Cowboy's Sweetheart
"From the College of Business and Economic Development to the College of Arts and Letters?"

I heard the CoST was also discussing getting ED. Wasn't it originally in Geography, which is now in CoST?

Date: Jun 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Googler
"If you recall, one of the selling points on the college reorganization was it would result in all five colleges having a Ph.D. program. If this shift occurs, that no longer will be true. (Not that it really matters.) I don't know why they didn't just create a School of Business (consisting of the "true" business programs) within the new CBED. ED could have been a department reporting to the CBED dean, and the CBED would have a Ph.D. program not tied directly to its business school. Looks to me like that might have been away around the AACSB concerns."

I don't know where Economic Development would fit best, but it does appear to me that some of the academic departments at USM are very misplaced within the current USM academic organizational structure. Criminal Justice in the College of Science and Technology, for instance; and Psychology in the College of Education; and Interior Design in the College of Arts and Letters. There may be more, but those three seem to be the most obviously misplaced. I am sure somebody had their reasons for placing them as they are placed, but to me it seems a bit unordodox. Very much unlike where those disciplines are housed at other major universities. Perhaps I am too much of the old school, too much of an academic traditionalist, and not up to snuff on all of this.

Date: Jun 16, 2004

1. Does MS really need 3 phd programs in business?

2. Research/publishing requirements for a college of bus with a phd are a whole lot different from an MBA/BA program

quote:

Originally posted by: Googler
"If you recall, one of the selling points on the college reorganization was it would result in all five colleges having a Ph.D. program. If this shift occurs, that no longer will be true. (Not that it really matters.) I don't know why they didn't just create a School of Business (consisting of the "true" business programs) within the new CBED. ED could have been a department reporting to the CBED dean, and the CBED would have a Ph.D. program not tied directly to its business school. Looks to me like that might have been away around the AACSB concerns."

Date: Jun 16, 2004

Interior Design is often found in Art related colleges around the country. I believe it is housed that way at Ole Miss and/or State.

Date: Jun 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: flyingundertheradar
"Interior Design is often found in Art related colleges around the country. I believe it is housed that way at Ole Miss and/or State."

Thanks, flyingundertheradar. I can see now that Arts and Letters may be the best place at USM for Interior Design. I was thinking of the former College of Liberal Arts. Interior Design does appear to fit best in the new Arts and Letters than in the old Liberal Arts. You've satisfied me about Interior Design. Is there a reason for Criminal Justice being in Science and Technology and Psychology being in Education? That will take lots of convincing.

Date: Jun 16, 2004

CoST = College of Shelby Thames? How much will CoST cost? Who will benefit? Sounds like a cockamamie plan to me. But what else is new?

quote:
Originally posted by: Otherside
" I heard the CoST was also discussing getting ED. Wasn't it originally in Geography, which is now in CoST? "

Date: Jun 16, 2004

Just taking a long shot here, but Criminal Justice deals with forensics, criminal investigations, science possibly more than liberal arts? Psychology????Maybe should be in College of Health?

Date: Jun 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: flyingundertheradar
"Just taking a long shot here, but Criminal Justice deals with forensics, criminal investigations, science possibly more than liberal arts? Psychology????Maybe should be in College of Health?"

There was an article in the H-American recently about the numerous retirements, with a photo of a retiring criminal justice prof. Sorry, can't remember who. He said that the dept. was changing direction more towards forensic aspects, and that wasn't what he did, so he was retiring. Seems like yet another example of making decisions without asking the people involved. I really don't know much about the state of Criminal Justice, except there have been tons of departures, so perhaps others can fill us in.

Date: Jun 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Latchkey Kid
"Thanks, flyingundertheradar. I can see now that Arts and Letters may be the best place at USM for Interior Design. I was thinking of the former College of Liberal Arts. Interior Design does appear to fit best in the new Arts and Letters than in the old Liberal Arts. You've satisfied me about Interior Design. Is there a reason for Criminal Justice being in Science and Technology and Psychology being in Education? That will take lots of convincing. "

Actually Latch, it's called the college is Education and Psychology. The history of psychology is quite interesting, and closely tied to education. In fact, some sub-disciplines of psychology, such as counseling psychology (which we have), are almost always housed in education colleges. School psychology (which we also have) is often, but not always, housed in education colleges. The weird constellation we have, however, is that our clinical and experimental doc programs are housed in a college that houses education components. This is very rare. These sub-disciplines are usually housed in A&S or Science. Many years ago (over a decade), there were two separate "psychology" departments in the college (Psychology [school, clinical, I/O, experimental] and Counseling). Dr. Lucas forced an unwanted marriage between the two against the wishes of virtually all the faculty at the time. This created numerous curricula and training problems that have just begun to be resolved in the last few years. The rationale for the consolidation--can you guess?

Date: Jun 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: flyingundertheradar
"Just taking a long shot here, but Criminal Justice deals with forensics, criminal investigations, science possibly more than liberal arts? Psychology????Maybe should be in College of Health?"

Criminal Justice programs were, I believe, established back in the 1960's and were supported by federal funding. I have a few former students who currently teach in major departments of criminal justice. They had little to do with forensics, criminalistics, crime scene investigation, or fingerprinting. It appears that USM may be morphing its former Criminal Justice program into a Forensic Science program. If that is the case, perhaps it should be renamed. Psychology, on the other hand, is traditionally located in a College of Arts and Sciences, or in a College of Liberal Arts. When there is a College of Liberal Arts and a College of Science, the department typically chooses, with appropriate administrative approval of course, which route to take. Based on what flyingundertheradar posted, I concede that the College of Arts and Letters is probably the most suitable place for Interior Design at USM. I concede that the College of Science and Technology is probably the best place for Criminal Justice, but if and only if the name is changed to Forensic Science (truth in packaging). Psychology, on the other hand, is a different matter. No concession here. Perhaps Robert Campbell has a take on this matter.

Date: Jun 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Latchkey Kid
"Criminal Justice programs were, I believe, established back in the 1960's and were supported by federal funding. I have a few former students who currently teach in major departments of criminal justice. They had little to do with forensics, criminalistics, crime scene investigation, or fingerprinting. It appears that USM may be morphing its former Criminal Justice program into a Forensic Science program. If that is the case, perhaps it should be renamed. Psychology, on the other hand, is traditionally located in a College of Arts and Sciences, or in a College of Liberal Arts. When there is a College of Liberal Arts and a College of Science, the department typically chooses, with appropriate administrative approval of course, which route to take. Based on what flyingundertheradar posted, I concede that the College of Arts and Letters is probably the most suitable place for Interior Design at USM. I concede that the College of Science and Technology is probably the best place for Criminal Justice, but if and only if the name is changed to Forensic Science (truth in packaging). Psychology, on the other hand, is a different matter. No concession here. Perhaps Robert Campbell has a take on this matter. "

Latch-

Look up! (A couple of posts up.) I tell you a little about psych.

Date: Jun 16, 2004

Originally posted by: psychoeyore

". . . . Dr. Lucas forced an unwanted marriage between the two against the wishes of virtually all the faculty at the time. This created numerous curricula and training problems that have just begun to be resolved in the last few years. The rationale for the consolidation--can you guess?"

You suggest that it was a shotgun wedding, psychoeyore. If I had to guess, I would say that it was probably something unrelated to the needs of the respective academic disciplines. Please tell me, what is the answer?

Date: Jun 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: flyingundertheradar
"Just taking a long shot here, but Criminal Justice deals with forensics, criminal investigations, science possibly more than liberal arts? Psychology????Maybe should be in College of Health?"

I heard that Criminal Justice did undergo a name change via Academic Council. Something like "Department of Justice", need to contact someone on Academic Council and check on that. In addition, I also believe that DoJ will move more into the "science of forensics and criminal investigations" kinda sounds like "CSI-Hattiesburg"

Date: Jun 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Green Hornet
"I heard that Criminal Justice did undergo a name change via Academic Council. Something like "Department of Justice", need to contact someone on Academic Council and check on that. In addition, I also believe that DoJ will move more into the "science of forensics and criminal investigations" kinda sounds like "CSI-Hattiesburg" "

The name change was to "Department of Administration of Justice."

Date: Jun 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: NoGnome
" The name change was to "Department of Administration of Justice.""

Are you saying that a department called the "Department of Administration of Justice" is earmarked for the College of Science and Technology? Awww, come on now. You're kidding us. I must be missing something.

Date: Jun 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: NoGnome
" The name change was to "Department of Administration of Justice.""

NoGnome, Thanks, I stand corrected.

Date: Jun 16, 2004

I had a cj class last semester (yes I'm special) and the dept. will offer a major in forensics soon and possible PhD and the name did change. They reassured cj majors that dispite the retirements everything will be a-okay. Riiiiight.

What I don't understand is that the College of Psy. Ed. houses elem. teaching majors but if you plan to go secondary you are in the CoAL but still take all teaching classes from College of Psy. and Ed.

Date: Jun 16, 2004

Because in elementary, your major is "education" while in secondary you have a major in an academic subject.

Date: Jun 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Latchkey Kid
"Which of those two Deans would have the most flexible academic standards? "

I don't know Dr. Pood, but the faculty in CBED doesn't have a clue what Dean Doty's standards are. Right now faculty are using FOIA requests to try to figure them out. Apparently, Dean Doty's standards are a University secret so protected and secure that he cannot share them, even with the faculty that is being evaluated.

Date: Jun 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Tired of fighting
" I don't know Dr. Pood, but the faculty in CBED doesn't have a clue what Dean Doty's standards are. Right now faculty are using FOIA requests to try to figure them out. Apparently, Dean Doty's standards are a University secret so protected and secure that he cannot share them, even with the faculty that is being evaluated."

Moving Economic Development to COAL makes no academic sense at all -- it isn't an art; it isn't a liberal art. It is either a highly specialized business related field or (as I really suspect) a "flavor of the month" kind of discipline that will have a short half life once the "wow" factor is gone.

If this move is made we need to demand the ACADEMIC reasons why it belongs in COAL. Trust me -- there aren't any good ones.

Date: Jun 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: stephen judd
" Moving Economic Development to COAL makes no academic sense at all -- it isn't an art; it isn't a liberal art. It is either a highly specialized business related field or (as I really suspect) a "flavor of the month" kind of discipline that will have a short half life once the "wow" factor is gone. If this move is made we need to demand the ACADEMIC reasons why it belongs in COAL. Trust me -- there aren't any good ones. "

Stephen, Doesn't something like this (changing majors/or programs from one college to another) need to go before the Academic Council? Surely this is an "academic" concern. Could Amy Young possibly weight-in on this?

Also, doesn't IHL have to approve this too?

Date: Jun 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Green Hornet
" Stephen, Doesn't something like this (changing majors/or programs from one college to another) need to go before the Academic Council? Surely this is an "academic" concern. Could Amy Young possibly weight-in on this? Also, doesn't IHL have to approve this too?"

Green Hornet:

Well, it is a good question. I think the college reorganization (in which some programs were moved completely away from their previous colleges (i.e. criminal justice) w/o any input from academic council (or, the faculty PERIOD) probably has established the precendent for the administration making these kinds of moves w/o consulting with academic council or (apparently) the faculty in the affected department/colleges.

This presents a problem as it de facto means that the administration is determining the direction in which departments and colleages are going -- meaning it is also in some sense dictating curriculum. I think criminal justice is a great example -- the move from LA to Science and technology has a profound effect on that faculty, on what students study, etc.

However, ultimately there will be changes in the curriculum that arise from these reorganizations -- and those chnages will come before academic council. The problem is the council probably can only really deal with technical issues of compliance to form rather than the larger philosophical issues the changes create -- unles we can somehow identify ways in which the chnages negatively impact the learning climate or weaken the overall academic program of the university or of the departments involved sorry that is so long winded). I'm sure amy has some good thoughts on this -- although like me she is probably running a very long day as I know her summer folks are doing fieldwork.

The administration clearly sees itself as all-knowing. It certainly doesn't get much advice from the inside -- so it either goes outside or perhaps these chnages might be the product of whatever trendy educational journal or new gimmick is hitting other universities . . . it certainly doesn't come from any in depth discussion about the quality of education (as a complege body of study or as specific disciplinary techniques) that the university wishes to produce.

I don't think this really is an IHL area -- and I am actually glad. While I don't like the idea of the adminstration making decisions w/o the faculty, I'd hate the idea of the IHL getting its little fingers too deeply into these matters. The fact is the IHL already is havily influencing us by things like the 120 hour minumum (and 144 hour maximum); its mandates on a university wide core; etc.

These are provocative questions -- thanks.

Date: Jun 19, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: LVN
"Because in elementary, your major is "education" while in secondary you have a major in an academic subject. "

The secondary ed students had to take 3 classes over in Education. One of them, CISE 313, was taught by a very respected and competent professor -- Dr. Melissa Whiting. She succeeded in getting the class (Principles of Secondary School Teaching) moved out into the Petal School system where she had classrooms set up in the middle and high schools. The class was in blockform so the students spent several hours out there. Hopefully she will allow her research and teaching where it's documented be included in the NCATE folio review. She's now the University of Arkansas's gain. It took a couple of pigs to send her to the Hogs.